Gardai proposals to ban firearms

BattleCorp

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Was in local sports shop last week and owner told me that he had just had a member of the garda on the phone. Wanted to know if a .17 was the same as a .22.
Said he had to explain the difference about three times before they grasped the concept.

I can't understand why they don't create a proper F.O. role. An extra week in Templemore to learn the basics would hardly break the State.

Surely you'd get a fair bit covered in a week. You wouldn't be an expert but it would be a hell of an improvement over the current system.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't understand why they don't create a proper F.O. role. An extra week in Templemore to learn the basics would hardly break the State.

Surely you'd get a fair bit covered in a week. You wouldn't be an expert but it would be a hell of an improvement over the current system.

Presumably some bean counter somewhere thinks it's more cost-effective to not hire more Gardai, slash the training budget, close half the stations and then yell more loudly at the Commissioner when the crime figures go up and occasionally fund one or two special "Operation Anvil" type things just before an election.

daragh8008

I can't help but think that a lot of this stems from misinformation and confusion. It seems many people who should know about firearms don't know enough. Those that do are intent on creating confusion to drive an agenda, and the rest ie politicians, general public and the media are clueless. (or pretend to be in some cases) In which case the only way to fight lack of knowledge or misinformation is with real information and facts. It may have been proposed before so excuse me if that is so. But I can't help but think an general webpage (some thing like firearmsinireland.org which is available) which sets out the facts and educates people on firearms (legal issues, technical issues, social issues etc) would be a great resource for politicians, media and public. So that people could easily see or find out what a .22lr is and how it is different to as Meathstevie described.. evil belt fed shotguns that fire 17000 lethal Glock rounds per minute. I know it may seem a bit daft, but if you put the knowledge out there for all to see and understand perhaps there is a chance of a more informed debate.

Sparks

daragh8008 wrote: »

I can't help but think that a lot of this stems from misinformation and confusion. It seems many people who should know about firearms don't know enough. Those that do are intent on creating confusion to drive an agenda, and the rest ie politicians, general public and the media are clueless. (or pretend to be in some cases) In which case the only way to fight lack of knowledge or misinformation is with real information and facts. It may have been proposed before so excuse me if that is so. But I can't help but think an general webpage (some thing like firearmsinireland.org which is available) which sets out the facts and educates people on firearms (legal issues, technical issues, social issues etc) would be a great resource for politicians, media and public. So that people could easily see or find out what a .22lr is and how it is different to as Meathstevie described.. evil belt fed shotguns that fire 17000 lethal Glock rounds per minute. I know it may seem a bit daft, but if you put the knowledge out there for all to see and understand perhaps there is a chance of a more informed debate.

You don't need a seperate website, most people these days check wikipedia as their first point of contact with something like this. Search for Irish gun law on wikipedia and you wind up here, which is reasonably accurate.

Problem is, anyone who honestly wants to know will learn almost immediately (our stuff is not rocket science). Anyone who wants to scaremonger won't bother to learn. It's analogous to trying to fight gun crime by writing more law - the people causing the problem won't read it and have their own agenda for continuing to cause the problem.

daragh8008

I know that it is wiki site is there but that is not really what I was thinking of. That wiki doesn't give any explanation of sports shooting in Ireland. Who does it, why or where they can do it. What they can do it with or can't do it with. With out trying to diss that page, for the layman on the street, it is a very hard nosed description of the facts with out any context. And while it is perfect for those who want to know "the law" in a page, it doesn't give any insight into what the sport is about. In short the idea was about countering media hysteria and propaganda with a friendly welcoming easy to read site with as many of the questions honestly answered in one place. Maybe its a silly idea, but I think it could be useful.

Sparks

True. But then... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport
And we've got easy to find websites too: http://guns.ie/ http://www.targetshootingireland.org/ and there are lots of others including http://shooting.boards.ie ( :P ). Just google for "target shooting ireland".

I don't think it's a bad idea; but getting it to the people who'd need to see it (ie. the Garda Superintendents and Chief Superintendents) is difficult, they're probably not going to trust it because it's coming from the source of future licence applicants which would strike them as a conflict of interest, and if everyone sends in their own it'll swamp them but any document that covered everyone's sport equally and fairly would wind up being the size of a small book, even if we could get everyone to agree on the contents.

It's not that it's a bad idea; it's just that it's a fairly difficult task to take on.

What you'd need is some channel of communication between the Garda FPU and the civilian experts so that when a super gave the FPU a query, you have the largest pool of knowledge available to give an answer. The problems there though, are equally challenging - conflict of interest, getting the AGS to go to outside experts, confidentiality, and so on.

daragh8008

Sparks wrote: »

True. But then... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport
And we've got easy to find websites too: http://guns.ie/ http://www.targetshootingireland.org/ and there are lots of others including http://shooting.boards.ie ( :P ). Just google for "target shooting ireland".

I think you highlighted the problem for me. There are so many different groups with their own pages devoted to their aspect of the sport (and rightly so) but there is no common resource aimed at or for the media and general public. Personally I think the GS could get the info they need at anytime they wanted, (if they so choose?) so while it would be nice to convey the details to them, I think part of the discussion should be aimed at the public. After all it will be the public opinion that the politicians will try to please when they stand outside Leinster House announcing their success in destroying sports shooting.

In any case I'm just thinking out loud about possible approaches but defer to the more experienced. Looking forward to telling all the nephews that Santa has been held on serious firearms charges and might not be out anytime soon.:D

Sparks

daragh8008 wrote: »

There are so many different groups with their own pages devoted to their aspect of the sport

See, there's the reason you think this is odd. It's not "the" sport, it's the sports. Seriously, I know we keep getting lumped in as "target shooting" but our sports are about as diverse as they get - and as we keep saying, just because football, soccer, hurling, rugby, tennis and golf all use a ball, it doesn't mean they're all the same sport.

Do we have a "ball sports" website for people who're into playing with... er, no, that sentence ends badly.
But you know what I mean.

After all it will be the public opinion that the politicians will try to please when they stand outside Leinster House announcing their success in destroying sports shooting.

Yeah, public opinion doesn't care about us enough for that to be a worry for them.
We're somewhat further down the public's list of priorities than say, the marriage referendum, Irish Water, the eighth amendment and the banking inquiry, just to look at the last week or two.

In any case I'm just thinking out loud about possible approaches

Seriously, keep doing that. Yeah, some ideas have flaws but if you never think of new ones...

lakesider

BattleCorp wrote: »

I can't understand why they don't create a proper F.O. role. An extra week in Templemore to learn the basics would hardly break the State.

Surely you'd get a fair bit covered in a week. You wouldn't be an expert but it would be a hell of an improvement over the current system.

They never wanted a Firearms officer role in AGS and still dont, creating a point of contact for shooters would smooth things and really help on the admin side but thats not wanted, there are plenty of knowledgeable garda out there who could fill that role in the morning but its better to keep things really messy and make the process difficult that way they arent helping to promote shooting sports..nothing to do with money its all to do with Senior Garda mindset..

daragh8008

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, public opinion doesn't care about us enough for that to be a worry for them.

Funny, because I always suspected that the whole debacle was a plan hatched by a certain former minister and friends to get a good news day announcing to the public a crack down dangerous weapons and the like, in order to improve opinion. Then again I am always prone to wearing tin foil hats

Grizzly 45

More like a personal agenda from a poisionous little man in power at the time.Who then jumped ship,party and country and sailed off on his wind surf board with his pensions and loot when it all came crashing down eight years ago. The incident he used was an exercise in absolute cynicism which was the murder of Shane Greghoran in Limerick to punish hand gun owners who had absolutely nothing to do with a gangland murder of mistaken identity of an innocent.
He even admitted it himself it wouldnt stop gun crime and that he wanted to prevent an "American style gun culture in Ireland." Which just goes to show how some people ar eutterly disconnected from any reality that we elect into govt .:rolleyes:

So what did this whole exercise serve???

It didnt stop gun crime,in fact since then it has increased.

It has cost the tax payer appx 4.5 million in high court cases from the AGS refusing to imply the law.

[Mod edit - Grizz, I'm snipping those bits before we get hit with a sub judice related stick...]

It has been proven in over 650 DC court cases that shooters have more than enough good reason to own these types of firearms for certain disiplines.Something AGS CS and Supers still stubbornly refuse to accept and still claim they re dynamic or combat sports.

Once AGS discoverd that they could be held responsible for costs ,they ran crying to their mummies Frannie and Noreen to cry about it and demand that the game,pitch and team be changed,yet again in their favour.

In fact it has utterly destroyed any trust between Irish gun owners and AGS on this issue of having fair play or a level pitch. In fact it is so bad now it would be better if this whole liscensing structure was removed from AGS and administerd by a civillian administration of knowledgeable people in the law and what type of firearms there actually are out there.

So yeah that minister did the Irish state and people "some service " alright.:rolleyes:

Sparks

daragh8008 wrote: »

Funny, because I always suspected that the whole debacle was a plan hatched by a certain former minister and friends to get a good news day announcing to the public a crack down dangerous weapons and the like, in order to improve opinion. Then again I am always prone to wearing tin foil hats

Possibly, but we don't use weapons, so the public doesn't care about us.

Sparks

Some interesting PQs today:

Thursday, 19 February 2015

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
121. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality regarding the proposed new legislation restricting certain licensed firearms, the current efforts to tackle the high number of illegal firearms, which is estimated to be more than 100,000; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [7585/15]
122. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the protection local businesses affected by the proposed new firearms legislation will be offered; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [7587/15]
125. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the compensation to be provided to persons affected by the proposed new firearms legislation, who will have to surrender or destroy their weapons and recreational equipment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [7636/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 121, 122 and 125 together.

I should say initially that my Department is not aware of any reliable basis for the figure quoted in the Deputy's question as representing the number of illegal firearms here.

So he's asking and she's responding about that 150,000 figure.
Which comes, as mentioned in earlier posts, from the Small Arms Survey 2007:

Sparks wrote: »

200,436 firearms in 4,609,600 people is 4.3 firearms per 100 people, not 8.6

8.6 turns out to be from the Small Arms Survey 2007 (or wikipedia) and is based on the inclusion of an estimated 150,000 illegally held firearms in the number (and the smaller 4.1 million population in 2005).

I'm not sure why we keep telling people that number's correct; we know it's been pulled from someone's orifice eight years ago and hasn't gotten any more accurate with time. And I know at least I pointed this out in both my submissions and that the Minister didn't think we had statistics on this either:

Minister Burke commented on such estimates in the Dail on October 22 1991 stating that “The very fact that [illegally held] firearms are held illegally precludes statistics being available of the number of such firearms”.

And now the current Minister has effectively said the same thing.

On the upside, that means we're back to using the accurate 4.3 figure instead of 8.6 and that puts us back at the bottom of the list of EU nations ordered by private firearms ownership per capita.

In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána, a joint Department of Justice and Equality/An Garda Síochána Working Group was established by the Department of Justice and Equality to review firearms licensing. The report of this Working Group was published on 13 November 2014 and submissions on the report were sought from stakeholders and the public by 31 January 2015. The consultation process gave individuals and groups an opportunity to contribute to the development of firearms policy and legislation and will enable consideration to be given to the future direction of such legislation.

The submissions received are currently being examined and incorporated into a report for me. The Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has also sought submissions and held hearings with interested parties in relation to the Working Party report. It is expected that their report on the issue will be available in a number of weeks.

Well, now we have a rough timeline...

I understand the Deputy's Question No 122 relates to what effects, if any, proposed changes to firearms licensing will have on firearms dealers. I wish to advise that the majority of licensed and licensable shotguns and rifles in this State will not be affected by the proposals to amend the firearms licensing system.

The issue of compensation which the Deputy raises is dealt with at Section 13 of the Working Group Report. The report states that the Courts have held that the possession of a firearm is not a right but a privilege. The Courts have in the past taken the view that what is in the State's gift cannot be required to be compensated if it is withdrawn.

I can't believe anyone's still buying that line of legal argument, when the law clearly says that ownership and possession are not the same thing.

I have already given a commitment that I will not make any final decisions until I have considered all the submissions which have been made and have met the key stakeholders, including the organisations who represent those who use firearms for sporting purposes. These meetings will take place following receipt and consideration of both my Department's and the Oireachtas Committee reports.

So that's that expected plan confirmed now.

I have asked the Garda Commissioner for a report in relation to specific measures being taken to tackle illegal firearms. I will reply further to the Deputy when that information becomes available.

And that's the interesting bit of the day really. Commissioning a separate Garda report into illegally-held firearms? So soon after everyone pointed out that ours weren't the problem? There's a dialogue behind that that I think we're never going to hear, but the fly on the wall must have found it interesting...

djflawless

Had a great chat with a guard last night.
Talking about the proposal and he's pure disgusted by it.
He can't believe that
1) revenue that will be lost
2)the sheer amount of legal red tape and hassle
3)the amount of men and women, himself included, that might have to find a way to fill a void that can't be fulfilled
1 thing we had a great laugh about is the fact I could do worse damage with a length of steel bar that he could with a .22 pistol
But still, nice to know that we will have lads like him fighting for our rights along side us

meathstevie

I think the Minister may gain from having a look at the European Convention on Human Rights that clearly states that there is a right to property and the enjoyment of that right in the jurisdiction of member states.

Of course it comes with the qualification that there's no such right when the articles in question are illegal to possess or are simply too dangerous for an individual to possess; think down the lines of a container load of cocaine for public distribution or a document folder sized nuclear IED etc etc.

Now AGS is singing that line about public safety ad nauseam but they seem to be forgetting that they do not have one iota of empirical evidence that for example a 12g Browning A5 is more of a danger to the public in the hands of a licenced shooter than a Browning B25.

Additionally, how can the organisation that signed of on that A5 before December 2014 all of a sudden argue that it's dangerous after December 2014 when current legislation explicitly forbids a Super or Chief Super to grant a licence when there's a perceived unacceptable risk to the public if a firearms licence is granted.

I predict a big sweep of a European Court Judge's arm across the table ordering the Irish State to compensate firearms owners that fell foul of legislation built on unestablished foundations and unsupported by any factual evidence if the AGS proposals make it into law.

BattleCorp

meathstevie wrote: »

I predict a big sweep of a European Court Judge's arm across the table ordering the Irish State to compensate firearms owners that fell foul of legislation built on unestablished foundations and unsupported by any factual evidence if the AGS proposals make it into law.

I'd much rather keep my firearms than receive compensation but here's something I am curious about.

Would compensation cover just the firearm? What about extra mags, cleaning kits, holsters, cases, range bags, timers, unused ammo and the mountain of other bits n pieces that we all have. And then there might be unused time left on annual range membership?

Could compensation be sought for all this stuff that would be rendered useless if a ban was implemented.

And how would the powers that be determine the amount of compensation due for a firearm seeing as most guns are far more expensive here than in other countries?

But like everyone else here, I hope it doesn't come to that.

Was anybody else worried about how readily the Minister accepted the Gardaí advice that no compensation would be due?

djflawless

Its very worrying to be honest.
But the only thing we can hope is that the right people speak up and actually act out

yubabill1

meathstevie wrote: »

I predict a big sweep of a European Court Judge's arm across the table ordering the Irish State to compensate firearms owners that fell foul of legislation built on unestablished foundations and unsupported by any factual evidence if the AGS proposals make it into law.

What about the firearms in storage since 1972?

You can bet that they would have been destroyed if no compensation was due.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'd much rather keep my firearms than receive compensation but here's something I am curious about.

Would compensation cover just the firearm? What about extra mags, cleaning kits, holsters, cases, range bags, timers, unused ammo and the mountain of other bits n pieces that we all have. And then there might be unused time left on annual range membership?

Dunno about membership dues, but quite a lot of the things we consider to be accessories or consumables in this sport classify as firearms under the law. That's a pain in our behinds most of the time; but if you have to operate a compensation scheme for repossessing firearms...

But like everyone else here, I hope it doesn't come to that.

Yup. If it did, you'd see a lot of court cases, barristers and solicitors would make a small fortune, we'd probably win and get back some money and then....
...
...
Well, what then, exactly? Our sports would be gone. The clubs would disband. There'd be no way to start it back up again.

What do you do then, take up golf? Emigrate and give up friends and family in the pursuit of a sport?

Was anybody else worried about how readily the Minister accepted the Gardaí advice that no compensation would be due?

I was a lot more worried that the Department signed off on it to be honest. I don't expect the Minister to be a legal expert (but I spent waaaaay too much time watching Yes Minister as a boy). But if the Department think that's rational, something's very, very awry.

bpb101

Lads unfortunately , I can't see people getting compensation . First I hope it won't have to come to that,
But the Garda aren't going to stop you selling your gun abroad.
Yes , I know they are destroying the market
But I can't see them giving people anything

But let's hope it doesn't come to that

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Dunno about membership dues, but quite a lot of the things we consider to be accessories or consumables in this sport classify as firearms under the law. That's a pain in our behinds most of the time; but if you have to operate a compensation scheme for repossessing firearms...


Yup. If it did, you'd see a lot of court cases, barristers and solicitors would make a small fortune, we'd probably win and get back some money and then....
...
...
Well, what then, exactly? Our sports would be gone. The clubs would disband. There'd be no way to start it back up again.

What do you do then, take up golf? Emigrate and give up friends and family in the pursuit of a sport?

I was a lot more worried that the Department signed off on it to be honest. I don't expect the Minister to be a legal expert (but I spent waaaaay too much time watching Yes Minister as a boy). But if the Department think that's rational, something's very, very awry.

Something is totally screwed because that argument that her dept is using is just that,a legal argument paper that was written by an academic in the UK and has no basis in law whatsoever. In fact the UK paid up twice for confiscated firearms ,so there is a precedent already in the EU.Obviously both depth and ags have signed off on this in their working group paper and have to stand over it come hell or high water To the point of misleading the minister.

Grizzly 45

bpb101 wrote: »

Lads unfortunately , I can't see people getting compensation . First I hope it won't have to come to that,
But the Garda aren't going to stop you selling your gun abroad.
Yes , I know they are destroying the market
But I can't see them giving people anything

But let's hope it doesn't come to that

Who is going to buy your stuff abroad?There is an utter glut on the second hand market in Europe at the moment.If you think you will get "grand for a glock"or anything close to the stupid prices paid for these in the celtic tiger era you have another think coming.By the time you shift this back out thru the same dealers you will be lucky to get 20 quid at the end of the day,after storage fees,and all the rest is added up.
I can see this becoming one huge high and then by passing the supreme court a European Court battle.European human rights law and two UK precedents are on our side on this.The irish have got an academic paper of a legal discussion

Gormley85

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I can see this becoming one huge high and then by passing the supreme court a European Court battle.European human rights law and two UK precedents are on our side on this.The irish have got an academic paper of a legal discussion

I cant see too many people rushing to an EU court. I would imagine the costs on that alone would be higher then most people firearm collections.

And thats before you consider the hassle/time/energy along with the chance of being out all that money and still possibly losing the case.

Grizzly 45

Gormley85 wrote: »

I cant see too many people rushing to an EU court. I would imagine the costs on that alone would be higher then most people firearm collections.

And thats before you consider the hassle/time/energy along with the chance of being out all that money and still possibly losing the case.

True but a group could and have done so before from the UK.While they didn't win it on the fox hunting being a right,it has kept the debate going in the UK now for over ten years and it is being mooted it will be re looked at to see if it is valid law or not. certainly proves that people will do this if they are determined enough and belive nough in their principles.Going to court is always a risk,but a lot of people said that the chances of it not working out in the district courts in 2009 were high too.

Gormley85

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True but a group could and have done so before from the UK.While they didn't win it on the fox hunting being a right,it has kept the debate going in the UK now for over ten years and it is being mooted it will be re looked at to see if it is valid law or not. certainly proves that people will do this if they are determined enough and belive nough in their principles.Going to court is always a risk,but a lot of people said that the chances of it not working out in the district courts in 2009 were high too.

I wonder what groups in Ireland would have the inclination to do it. I wouldnt like to see the NARGC take on with it. It would be nice to see everyone at the table. Then again, trying to get all the different groups to sit down and not bicker will be a task. Although I suppose this time with a common goal (compensation) maybe we might just swing it.

Grizzly 45

Gormley85 wrote: »

I wonder what groups in Ireland would have the inclination to do it. I wouldnt like to see the NARGC take on with it. It would be nice to see everyone at the table. Then again, trying to get all the different groups to sit down and not bicker will be a task. Although I suppose this time with a common goal (compensation) maybe we might just swing it.

Otoh there are now some pretty rich individuals out ther now who wouldnt think twice of doing this off their own bat who are affected by this.
The point of all this is we need to get this point across to the minister that if she goes down the wrong road on this because of deliberate mis information from her working group she will go down in history as the minister that cost the tax payer over 4.5 million and more in compensation and a another key factor to her party being out of govt for decades again as well has creating utter distrust between ags and the shooting public .Hardly a glorious political career. Yeah I'll emigrate then because the choices of whats the alternatives in the political field is no better here.Where.Would you like Cuba or Greece style govt in ireland?

Sparks

bpb101 wrote: »

Lads unfortunately , I can't see people getting compensation . First I hope it won't have to come to that,
But the Garda aren't going to stop you selling your gun abroad.
Yes , I know they are destroying the market
But I can't see them giving people anything

But let's hope it doesn't come to that

If they let you sell it abroad, then they haven't confiscated them because you still own them.
That's the point of ownership and possession being separate concepts.

Gormley85

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Otoh there are now some pretty rich individuals out ther now who wouldnt think twice of doing this off their own bat who are affected by this.
The point of all this is we need to get this point across to the minister that if she goes down the wrong road on this because of deliberate mis information from her working group she will go down in history as the minister that cost the tax payer over 4.5 million and more in compensation and a another key factor to her party being out of govt for decades again as well has creating utter distrust between ags and the shooting public .Hardly a glorious political career. Yeah I'll emigrate then because the choices of whats the alternatives in the political field is no better here.Where.Would you like Cuba or Greece style govt in ireland?

Ive agreed with everything you said so far.... but that bold bit I dont agree with. We dont even know if anyone in this country would take on with such a court case, let alone whether they will win or not. I think hitting Ms Fitzgerald with this information is scare tactics and wont win us any favours.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

and a another key factor to her party being out of govt for decades again

I dont think us shooters have that much sway when it comes to votes. I'd wager the biggest threat to FG been out of power will be this Irish Water debacle, or the Alan Shatter/Callian penalty points fiasco.

Grizzly 45

I hear tell there is alot more going on to cause the ground to shake under Noreen & Frannies feet soon regarding shooting and harrassment of gun owners[Think Ritchie Barron style harrassment] that willl make the penalty points look like a little minor disipline infringement.
If they thought the DC cases and now compensation was sorted by banning stuff when this breaks it will be an end of life event for AGS in creditability and for any politican involved.
It proably sounds like Adolf going about wonder weapons in the final days of the 3rd Reich,but lets just say with the situation with the head of ballistics under investigation,that was apprently a major part of it in place. Its apprently still sub judice and thats why it is virtually unknown here to most of us.I'm getting this info 3rd hand and in trickle feed,truth or not,I'm giving it 80 % factual,as our threads from Boards.ie in Oct 2014 RE the DC victories were linked to the story.

Well she should be scared because the 4.5 million is still due to be paid by the govt caused by an agency under her depts control.It wont be the major factor of the end of FG,but it will be a contributor factor.

Grizzly 45

Was into the airsoft shop in Limerick this afternoon,where I had left in a few petition sheets before Xmas .Apart from the Polish lads who owned the shop and want the 1joule restriction lifted on airsoft had signed the petition.Not ONE other person in the airsoft scene in Limerick who goes to that shop signed the petition.: Thanks!!! Really appreciated Limerick airsofters.:(:mad: