Gardai proposals to ban firearms

BattleCorp

The clip shot in Harbour House had RTE showing 10/22's and Hammerli Xesse's but the voiceover called them high powered firearms.

I'm not overly positive about this programme.

Grizzly 45

Would you have expected them to call them anything different?Anything any media whore knows about firearms consists of these words to identify firearms. Glock,Ak 47,high powerd firearms.Apply to any type of firearms and thats them coverd! What would be helpful to know is this going to be an audience participation programme or just a biased report with a few heads trying to talk over each other?If it is the former...Where and how do we get tickets?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Where and how do we get tickets?

Been to one before. They're a bit more structured than you'd imagine - if you were hoping the audience could display its thoughts on the subject in an unedited fashion, you'd be sadly disappointed.

bpb101

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Would you have expected them to call them anything different?Anything any media whore knows about firearms consists of these words to identify firearms. Glock,Ak 47,high powerd firearms.Apply to any type of firearms and thats them coverd! What would be helpful to know is this going to be an audience participation programme or just a biased report with a few heads trying to talk over each other?If it is the former...Where and how do we get tickets?

id say give them a call , There wont be a flood of people asking for them. I dont know if this one will have a live audiences or not . May be recorded

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Been to one before. They're a bit more structured than you'd imagine - if you were hoping the audience could display its thoughts on the subject in an unedited fashion, you'd be sadly disappointed.

Been o tonite with Vince O Brien,so it wont be my first rodeo on this either,but you can sometimes get in a good point if if you play the game.

Roundpack

bpb101 wrote: »

id say give them a call , There wont be a flood of people asking for them. I dont know if this one will have a live audiences or not . May be recorded

The Prime Time format changed recently, no audience.

Grizzly 45

Ok somewhat related to " Firearms" but is this a sanctions buster that loops round the 1925 act??

http://www.donedeal.ie/otherhome-for-sale/irelands-first-100-legal-self-defence-spray/8657176

Yeah,its DD who arent exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer when it comes to shooting and hunting but it is intresting in the fact its not "noxious"[Which we will have to ASSume means an irritant or incapicitant] and it is a gel rather than gas or liquid.So as a weapon for holding up someone,you might as well squirt a bottle of ketchup at them.
Seeing that Frannie Fitz said that there was no plan to change the law in the near future on CS /pepper spray sales here last week in a Journal.ie article,is this somone trying to pull fast one?Robbing SOBs too I might add.The stuff costs about a fiver in any tobacconists and corner store in Gemany.:P

Sparks

Yeah, I wouldn't buy that if you paid me to.
Seriously, "contains no toxins" and "is not noxious for the purposes of the Act" are very, very, very different things.

Besides, spray that stuff on someone's exposed eyeball, I'd be pretty sure it'd be noxious by anyone's definition...

Nekarsulm

What about the lad in Wexford , who was advertising new air rifles on DD lately? Anyone see that? Lad with a foreign Christian name.

Broadstr8

Been away for a while... to save trawling through tons online and seeing that this is apparently to be the best forum for facts, can anyone let me know what steps are to be taken by the shooter's coalition and what is expected to get results from the current process and the gun law reviews?

Can't find anything groundbreaking new... are there more hearings coming up in the Oireachtas?

Sparks

Broadstr8 wrote: »

Can't find anything groundbreaking new... are there more hearings coming up in the Oireachtas?

No, the Minister has said in the last few days that she's expecting the reports in the next week or two, the Joint Committee has said they won't be visiting the reloading facilities at the midlands and that was the last field trip they might have taken, so we're fairly close to some sort of result at this stage from both the Joint Committee and the Department.
The Minister has said she'll meet with the interested parties after those reports come out and before making her decision, so that'll be the next major point, but it'll be critical to continue to contact local TDs and so on at a grassroots level until that point, even after the reports come out.
And it will be even more critical to do so politely, and to cite facts and figures.

bpb101

Sparks wrote: »

No, the Minister has said in the last few days that she's expecting the reports in the next week or two, the Joint Committee has said they won't be visiting the reloading facilities at the midlands and that was the last field trip they might have taken, so we're fairly close to some sort of result at this stage from both the Joint Committee and the Department.
The Minister has said she'll meet with the interested parties after those reports come out and before making her decision, so that'll be the next major point, but it'll be critical to continue to contact local TDs and so on at a grassroots level until that point, even after the reports come out.
And it will be even more critical to do so politely, and to cite facts and figures.

also regardless of what the minister decides it will still have to be passed by the houses. Although They do have a majority , im sure a lot of fg and espically labour tds who may have a slim chance of getting re-elected in some cases may not be so happy to enforce an unpopular proposal.
I would say they committee will recommend a review and also complete rewritting of the firearms acts and maybe a firearms licensing section of the gardas who deal with issuing of licenses and but local garda do call out and check security maybe , Could be wrong.
One thing that should be looked at very carefully is how the dail votes , Who votes for yes and no , who says what.

Also we can encourage local td to slap on an amendment. So if there is something that is left out , propose an amendment . Eg , up joule limit as not to include air rifles or something like allowing zero a scope.

so local tds will be key & this prime time - so click forgotten password now on twitter.

Also , dont forget it has to go through the seanad so another opportunity to get in an amendment , although less lightly

garrettod

Hi,

Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but apparently only three members of the Justice Committee took the trouble to visit the range in Kildare, after arrangements were made for them to go down and see first hand how a professional club is run, the safety precautions taken etc.

The members of the Committee were: Deputies David Stanton (chair), Padraig Mac Lochlainn and Alan Farrell.

Should one read into that, that all other members of the Justice Committee were of a view that they wouldn't learn anything or that the visit was not worthwhile, perhaps ?

Grizzly 45

Mc Graths excuse was he thought he would be lynched hung drawn and quarterd and then be used as a bullet stop and buried out in a backstop.So he "kept away" according to his interview in one of the papers about a week later.
Sen Mulcahy is on another committee [energy I think] so was unable to attend.Dunno about the rest.

Sparks

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,
Not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but apparently only three members of the Justice Committee took the trouble to visit the range in Kildare, after arrangements were made for them to go down and see first hand how a professional club is run, the safety precautions taken etc.

The members of the Committee were: Deputies David Stanton (chair), Padraig Mac Lochlainn and Alan Farrell.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94263315&postcount=1405
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94267765&postcount=1414
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94268636&postcount=1421

Should one read into that, that all other members of the Justice Committee were of a view that they wouldn't learn anything or that the visit was not worthwhile, perhaps ?

Dunno, but those members didn't go to Garda HQ on the same day either (well, bar Collins)...

Birdnuts

BattleCorp wrote: »

The clip shot in Harbour House had RTE showing 10/22's and Hammerli Xesse's but the voiceover called them high powered firearms.

I'm not overly positive about this programme.

I wonder who will be on the panel discussion. I assume the likes of NARGC,AGS and maybe some law professor type. Hopefully it will be reasonably balanced. The last thing we need is some Bernie Wright type being parachuted in and taking over the discussion!!:(

J.R.

PRIME TIME PROGRAMME

FIREARMS REVIEW

received e-mail today from Des Crofton NARGC

a snippet from it reads.......

Further to our previous communications on the above matter, please note that we are informed that the Prime Time programme is scheduled to be broadcast tomorrow night, March 10th, at 9.30pm.

http://www.sportscoalition.org/firearms-review-forthcoming-rte-prime-time-programme/

Grizzly 45

Right,just back frommy local FG TD office .Pie chart duely presented with nine serious faults in categories of things that arent guns underlined and how miniscule the actual amounts of restricted firearms that are stolen that AGS are getting their and everyones knickers in a knot.He had a quick phone call with the chairman of the comittee and the comittees reports should be out towards the end of this month.This will be available to the GP as soon as it is published as to the Dail and minister. He strongly suggests we put in another submission on these skewed figures ASAP,either individually or from the shooting groups,prefably both
.I asked him for an assurance that this pie chart would be presented to the minister and that she must raise SERIOUS questions with AGS as to WTF they see themselves going with this,that their own stats are making a mockery of their arguements, and that it might be a good idea to call it a day as they are in a deep enough hole as it is?And to expect lots of texts between 9.30 and 1020 tomrrow night on this subject.;)

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

He strongly suggests we put in another submission on these skewed figures ASAP

Oireachtas Joint Committee clerk wrote:

Sparks wrote:

Hi Alan,
Could you pass this along to the Committee in regard to the Firearms Licencing review please? Thanks!

In regard to the figure of approximately 1700 firearms that were listed by the Gardai as having been stolen from 2010 to 2014 and which have been reported on in all the tabloids of late, Deputy Collins raised interesting written questions in the Dail on Tuesday this week, which saw an infodump of raw data from PULSE regarding the figures. Here's the quick breakdown:

Shotgun (Under And Over)
26.4%
Cartridges / Rounds of Ammo.
15.6%
Shotgun (Single Barrel)
14.2%
Rifle (Bolt Action)
10.4%
Imitation Gun
3.6%
Shotgun
3.5%
Air Rifle
2.6%
Shotgun (Semi Automatic)
2.6%
Air Pistol
2.6%
Rifle (Pump Action)
2.5%
Rifle
2.2%
Replica (Blank Firing)
1.8%
Gun safe
1.7%
Shotgun (Side By Side)
1.6%
Shotgun (Pump Action)
1.5%
Replica (Non Firing)
1.4%
Telescopic Sight
1.1%
Pistol
0.7%
Toy Gun
0.7%
Gas Gun
0.5%
Rifle (Lever Action)
0.5%
Humane Killer
0.4%
Paintball Gun
0.2%
Prohibited Weapon
0.2%
Starting Pistol
0.2%
Unknown
0.2%
Musket
0.2%
Revolver
0.2%
Cross Bow
0.1%
Flare Pistol
0.1%
Shotgun (Bolt Action)
0.1%
Stun Gun
0.1%
Grenade
0.1%
Rifle (Automatic)
0.1%
Rifle (Double Barrel)
0.1%
Rifle (Long Rifle)
0.1%
Rifle (Repeater)
0.1%
Rifle (Semi Automatic)
0.1%

(See attached pie chart too)

Some interesting questions arise. Why is there a fully automatic rifle listed, when only Gardai and the Defence Forces can own them in Ireland under EU directive 91/477/EEC? Was one stolen from the Gardai in the Eastern Dublin Metropolitan Region in 2011? Why are there 54 replicas listed as real firearms when they can't actually shoot live rounds? Why are there 266 rounds of ammunition listed as individual firearms in the numbers? Why were 18 telescopic sights (the actual telescope optics themselves that is) listed as individual firearms? Why are there 29 gun safes, 62 imitation guns and 12 toy guns listed as firearms when under Section One of the Firearms Act, those three categories are not legally firearms even within the enormously wide definition of that term in Irish law?

These figures appear somewhat misleading (and I understand a formal complaint about them has been lodged with GSOC). We don't issue firearms licences for grenades, for example, but there's one in there. Was a grenade stolen from the Army in Tipperary in 2010?

I'll be the first to admit that the number of what we think of "guns" that have been stolen is a cause for concern (though I wish to note that none of proposals the Working Group have made have addressed minimum security standards at all). But these figures, they're... well, they raise some rather pointy questions about the quality of the data in PULSE, and it's that data that the Gardai are basing their proposals on, and that raises questions over the proposals as well, obviously.

Regards,

Sparks wrote:

Actually, now that I think about it, those 266 rounds of ammunition - the second largest chunk in the pie - are also not legally firearms even under our hilariously wide definition of "firearm". You might append this line to that earlier email?

Thanks Alan,

Dear ....

Our Ref: 2015/267a

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence containing additional information in relation to the Committee's Review of Firearms Licensing.

This correspondence will be brought to the attention of the Committee.

Regards,

That was four days ago (and the first email had the pretty pie chart).

And on the same day sent the following to Niall Collins, who is on the Joint Committee and who put in the original PQ that led to the data:

Deputy,
I read your written questions to the Minister for Justice this Tuesday, and the response they elicited. In the fifteen years that I've been reading those, I think yours count as easily within the three or four most important ever asked and answered in this area (which, granted, is somewhat narrow, but it's important to us!).

Some fairly thorny questions were raised by the Minister's answer; you might want to read some thoughts on them here:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/03/06/the-gunshow

Perhaps key among these - and I've passed this on to the Joint Committee on Justice as well - are the points that the figure of 1700 stolen firearms which has been released by the Gardai is counting 381 items which are not legally licencable firearms in Ireland, including 369 items which do not fall under the legal definition of firearm under the act at all (and that definition is hilariously wide); and that many of us in the shooting community are looking at some of those other numbers and are sure that there has been some miscategorisation, because some of the figures, like the number of stolen air pistols, represent more than half the active sports shooter in a particular area having their firearms stolen in the past four years and we would have noticed something that enormous.

I might suggest a few follow-up questions that could pursue this further, if you're interested.

"How many people in Ireland have licenced firearms"
I mentioned this to the Joint Committee in the meeting in January. We have an estimate of about 100,000 people, I understand the IFA have a slightly higher estimate, but nobody has ever gotten this number in the Dail to date. They have been given instead the number of firearms in Ireland, which is not the same thing since so many people own more than one firearm.

"Will the newly established Garda Data Quality Team audit the firearms data in PULSE given the errors that appear in that data?"
It seems we have a significant problem with the quality of the data within PULSE; someone needs to audit it so we have data that can be relied on. Duplicate records, records entered with errors, miscategorisation, typos - these are all feeding into national policy decisions and legislative drafts, and that really isn't optimal.

"Given that the recent Garda figures on stolen firearms include three categories of item which may not be legally classed as firearms under the Act, will the Minister be releasing new audited figures?"
This seems somewhat obvious!

Again Deputy, I'd like to congratulate you on an excellent written question. I'm hoping you can ask the interesting followup questions as well; I think the answer to the first may be somewhat surprising...

Regards,

Should find out in a day or two if he'll use any of those PQs.

Grizzly 45

Birdnuts wrote: »

I wonder who will be on the panel discussion. I assume the likes of NARGC,AGS and maybe some law professor type. Hopefully it will be reasonably balanced. The last thing we need is some Bernie Wright type being parachuted in and taking over the discussion!!:(

This is what mkes me think this will be just like the 08 programme, a documentary with no talking heads afterwards as really said,who could they use here as the antigun side??

Unless RTE will import some "mercenaries" from the UK anti gun side like Gun Control Networks Gill Marsh Andrews [total and utter Lady GaGa:rolleyes:] or the like.
I cant see AGS sticking their willies on the media chopping block and if they put one of the anti fieldsports on here it will be a masscre....of them.
Leaves politicans... Mc Grath,Deasy.Maureen O Sullivan,Claire Daly,or the SF head on the comittee?
guess we will have to wait and see...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Leaves politicans... Mc Grath,Deasy.Maureen O Sullivan,Claire Daly,or the SF head on the comittee?

The head of the committee is Fine Gael, not SF - you're thinking of one of the members of the committee.
And you forgot about our great friend from Kerry :rolleyes:

homerhop

seen the ad on rte just now, looks like they are going to lump us in with criminals

Sparks

homerhop wrote: »

seen the ad on rte just now, looks like they are going to lump us in with criminals

*$%£&!

homerhop

Sparks wrote: »

*$%£&!

That's just first impressions, wish it was on tonight

Grizzly 45

A bit more detailed from the blurb...Mick Tope being interviewed in a rather "dark setting".With a sinister looking underlight NASRPC flag in the backround..Some sinister stills of big caliber revolvers and bolt actions with price tags under them,people shooting Xcesse pistols,and someones Ma or wife/sister /daughter saying "I dont know why anyone would want one."?????????

So that s going to be our opposition on this "mothers against guns"???
Someone went away and swallowed the Leni Riefenstahl film directors guide on "How to demonise a group by using lights and camera angles."Either that or the RTE budget has run out to buy more spotlights...:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

The head of the committee is Fine Gael, not SF - you're thinking of one of the members of the committee.
And you forgot about our great friend from Kerry :rolleyes:

No I meant as in the common Irish or Limerick vernacular "Head" when a persons name slips your mind and used a a friendly greeting as in " Hiya there Head" Its a Limerick thing....You mightnt understand !:)

yubabill1

homerhop wrote: »

seen the ad on rte just now, looks like they are going to lump us in with criminals

Ha Ha Ha Reminds me of the old saying about boxing

"Everyone who goes into the ring has a plan...until they get hit"

Ok guys and gals, time to keep your focus.

We've been handed a gold-plated opportunity to question our opposition's credibility - i.e.; the inaccuracy of Pulse records.

We don't have to destroy their credibility, merely raise enough questions enough times to raise a doubt is all it takes.

So let's keep to the plan and ignore the hits: That's how to win a boxing match and interviews are child's play, when no-one's smacking you between the eyes.

bpb101

yubabill1 wrote: »

Ha Ha Ha Reminds me of the old saying about boxing

"Everyone who goes into the ring has a plan...until they get hit"

Ok guys and gals, time to keep your focus.

We've been handed a gold-plated opportunity to question our opposition's credibility - i.e.; the inaccuracy of Pulse records.

We don't have to destroy their credibility, merely raise enough questions enough times to raise a doubt is all it takes.

So let's keep to the plan and ignore the hits: That's how to win a boxing match and interviews are child's play, when no-one's smacking you between the eyes.

A poet ....:D

Yeah but your right, But is there anybody going to be there,or is it just Crimecall primetime

yubabill1

Quick thoughts for Prime Time:

1. Sparks has done a good job of questioning the reliability of the new figures for stolen firearms - basically he asks is it a good idea to base legislation on unreliable stats?

2. The Fennelly Inquiry into the departure of Martin Callinan has essentially been suspended indefinitely (he is waiting for the Ian Bailey case to conclude, because the garda station phone recording has something to do with both). This is one of many skeletons the Taoiseach is trying to bury before the election and very embarrassing to FG.

It is legitimate to ask whether the firearms proposals have the support of the present Commissioner, given the ongoing inquiries around the departure of her predecessor.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Its a Limerick thing....You mightnt understand !:)

Definitely wouldn't [KerryAccent]boy[/KerryAccent].