Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Quick thoughts for Prime Time:

Well, they've definitely been told about (1) because that was sent into the producer last week.

knockon

I emailed Paul Ferris, Deputy Editor of Prime Time last night. I emailed info regarding the Dail Question set down by Niall Collins and I gave him a copy of the data from PULSE. I emphasised that it was real important that they highlight that the Garda proposals are based on these figures.

yubabill1

knockon wrote: »

I emailed Paul Ferris, Deputy Editor of Prime Time last night. I emailed info regarding the Dail Question set down by Niall Collins and I gave him a copy of the data from PULSE. I emphasised that it was real important that they highlight that the Garda proposals are based on these figures.

These things are well and good, but it is to our advantage to merely call the credibility of the proposers into question; this is easy to do by

asking whether it is prudent to base proposed legislation on shaky statistics

asking whether these proposals have the support of present Commissioner.

Specifically, I mean by our twittering/emailing/phoning/texting later tonight.

There's going to be fun tonight.

bpb101

prob going to be a primetime thread somewhere else on boards. hit that as well

BattleCorp

Is this programme just going to be a compilation of clips or will there be a discussion about the proposals too?

If so, who is representing shooters in that discussion?

Cass

bpb101 wrote: »

prob going to be a primetime thread somewhere else on boards. hit that as well

I've created a Prime Time thread here. All details are in the first post.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

There's going to be fun tonight.

That wasn't quite the word I'd have chosen, though my choice did begin with F and U as well...

Cass

Cass wrote: »

I've created a Prime Time thread here. All details are in the first post.

I've moved some prime time posts to the thread.

daragh8008

Sparks wrote: »

No, it extends to the constitution. The supreme court ruled that a blanket ban constituted a rewriting of the Firearms Act and that was only within the purview of the Oireachtas, not the Gardai or the Minister (except where allowed for by the Act, which very shortly after the supreme court verdict was changed to grant that authority to the Minister, but not the Gardai).


It was ruled not to be and overturned, that was the point of the Brophy case.

It is interesting comment given that today head shop drugs were made legal. The judges ruling found the 1977 act unconstitutional because principles or policies regarding the nature of the substances to be banned were not contained within the act and was thus seen as giving powers of the Oireachtas to government. Looking at the consolidate 1925 act, perhaps someone with better understanding could point me to where the principles and policies relating to section f25 (2009 bit) are. Today's judges ruling is an interesting read.

knockon

frances.fitzgerald@oir.ie

Dear Minister,

On Tuesday 3rd March 2015 you answered a question from Niall Collins in the Dail and supplied information from An Garda Siochana PULSE in respect of Firearms stolen between 2010 and 2014. I'am sure your attention at this stage has been brought to the fact that the information is unreliable and inaccurate.

I would like to know as Justice Minister will you be asking AGS to qualify their information as it is a basis for banning certain firearms that they have supplied to you?

Its is rather perturbing that the administrators of justice for the State appear to have an agenda all on their own.

Regards

knockon

As the day goes on I am getting more pissed off....

Start writing guys.....


kieran.odonnell@oireachtas.ie

Hi Kieran,

As a result of the Dail question by Niall Collins and answered by Minister Francis Fitzgerald she supplied information from AGS PULSE. That information has been found to be flawed.

I am asking how can the Gardai supply this misinformation without being challenged? Can you raise a Dail question on the matter?

Grizzly 45

DING DING Round Four...

This actually looks like a cruncher because it looks like the comittee want to hear from the acadmics on this and they are also considering......
Ah !go read the article!:D




Today the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality issued the following statement.
The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has this morning agreed to seek a range of academic perspectives as part of its on-going consideration of a recent review of firearms licencing issues. The Committee hopes that the input of experts, with independent analysis of the current trends in Ireland and optimum policy in other jurisdictions, will assist the Committee as it considers this complex policy area.
The Committee has also agreed to write to the Minister for Justice and Equality Frances Fitzgerald to ask her to consider requesting the Garda Inspectorate to independently assess the procedures and practices related to firearms licencing and the proposals contained in the Firearms Review, which was published by the Joint Department of Justice and Equality / Garda Síochána Working Group last November.
Following a call for public submissions, the Committee hosted a series of meetings in December and January with both the Working Group and representatives of shooting clubs with concerns around the Review’s findings. A delegation from the Committee also visited Garda HQ and Nurney Firing Range last month to hear at first hand the differing perspectives on the issue.
Committee Chairman David Stanton TD says: ““Having issued a call for public submissions and hosted valuable discussions on the Review’s findings in Leinster House, the Committee understands that there are differing perspectives on the holding of firearms and firearm licensing. The visits to Garda HQ and the Nurney firing range last month– and the detailed briefings received – helped to further inform the Committee in shaping our own response to the Review.
“This an extraordinarily complex and emotive policy area, and the Committee remains intent on charting a balanced and proportionate course as it weighs up the strong arguments on both sides. We are acutely conscious that any policy decisions taken in this area must be underpinned by reliable statistics and an understanding of best practice in other jurisdictions. With this in mind, the Committee is now seeking advice from leading academics working in the area, and may decide to invite them to engage with the Committee at future public hearings. The Committee also agreed to ask Minister Fitzgerald to give consideration to engaging the Garda Inspectorate to conduct an independent analysis of the issues at hand.”

clivej

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

DING DING Round Four...

This actually looks like a cruncher because it looks like the comittee want to hear from the acadmics on this and they are also considering......
Ah !go read the article!:D

Today the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality issued the following statement.
The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has this morning agreed to seek a range of academic perspectives as part of its on-going consideration of a recent review of firearms licencing issues. The Committee hopes that the input of experts, with independent analysis of the current trends in Ireland and optimum policy in other jurisdictions, will assist the Committee as it considers this complex policy area.
The Committee has also agreed to write to the Minister for Justice and Equality Frances Fitzgerald to ask her to consider requesting the Garda Inspectorate to independently assess the procedures and practices related to firearms licencing and the proposals contained in the Firearms Review, which was published by the Joint Department of Justice and Equality / Garda Síochána Working Group last November.
Following a call for public submissions, the Committee hosted a series of meetings in December and January with both the Working Group and representatives of shooting clubs with concerns around the Review’s findings. A delegation from the Committee also visited Garda HQ and Nurney Firing Range last month to hear at first hand the differing perspectives on the issue.
Committee Chairman David Stanton TD says: ““Having issued a call for public submissions and hosted valuable discussions on the Review’s findings in Leinster House, the Committee understands that there are differing perspectives on the holding of firearms and firearm licensing. The visits to Garda HQ and the Nurney firing range last month– and the detailed briefings received – helped to further inform the Committee in shaping our own response to the Review.
“This an extraordinarily complex and emotive policy area, and the Committee remains intent on charting a balanced and proportionate course as it weighs up the strong arguments on both sides. We are acutely conscious that any policy decisions taken in this area must be underpinned by reliable statistics and an understanding of best practice in other jurisdictions. With this in mind, the Committee is now seeking advice from leading academics working in the area, and may decide to invite them to engage with the Committee at future public hearings. The Committee also agreed to ask Minister Fitzgerald to give consideration to engaging the Garda Inspectorate to conduct an independent analysis of the issues at hand.”

At last something positive

Sparks

Huzzah!

OzCam

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

the Committee is now seeking advice from leading academics working in the area

I'm sure I saw research cited recently that shows no correlation between crime rates and gun ownership over the last two decades. I.e. serious crime rates are falling dramatically across the western world, but gun ownership is steady. It might have been cited by Bruce Schneier, but I can't remember it just now dammit.

yubabill1

1906 posts later...Well, looks like the Justice Committee have a problem with the credibility of these proposals.......

I believe the Garda Inspectorate are independent - they've certainly given creaking AGS systems a hauling over the coals recently in their report.

Finian - the gov't are gonna love you for aggravating 144,000 rural voters to gain half-a-dozen votes for yourself.

You are going to get your arse handed to you on a plate sooner than you think.

https://twitter.com/Finianmcgrathtd/status/575652385143590912

Get it?

Sparks

OzCam wrote: »

I'm sure I saw research cited recently that shows no correlation between crime rates and gun ownership over the last two decades. I.e. serious crime rates are falling dramatically across the western world, but gun ownership is steady. It might have been cited by Bruce Schneier, but I can't remember it just now dammit.

Well the Committee was pointed to several such reports in relation to the UK and Australia...

yubabill1

Fergus, Take the pension while you can.

I'm not going to stop till Fennelly gets on your case. 5 mill in court fees.....where did that get you/

Ask Martin how it's going for him.

get it?

SVI40

Well,

Here's two reports for a start:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

http://www.colfo.org.nz/ITRH/_documents/Greenwood_Paper.pdf

I see Finian hasn't published a link to any reports that show a link to stricter firearms licencing, and a reduction in crime.

OzCam

yubabill1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Finianmcgrathtd/status/575652385143590912

I've searched through F McGrath's timeline on twitter since yesterday... I can't find any nasty tweets. One or two that were pointed, but nothing a reasonable person could call nasty. Another made-up number?

Sparks

Depends on how you define "nasty" y'see.
If you define it as "did not believe me absolutely and without question", then pretty much every tweet pointed at him is "nasty"...

SVI40

OzCam wrote: »

I've searched through F McGrath's timeline on twitter since yesterday... I can't find any nasty tweets. One or two that were pointed, but nothing a reasonable person could call nasty. Another made-up number?

Ah, but Finian does not like to report facts. Only makie uppy stuff. Or something he heard down the pub, from a mates buddy, who heard it from someone, who was there, I swear, so it's fact!

Grizzly 45

On the more positive side does anyone realise what a Damoclean sword is now hanging over AGS especially with the CF stuff once the inspectorate goes over their facts and figures???.Me thinks that ol horse hair is starting to strain abit now on the celluar level.A discreet push to Frannie that this is a REALLY good idea is all that is needed.:)

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On the more positive side does anyone realise what a Damoclean sword is now hanging over AGS especially with the CF stuff once the inspectorate goes over their facts and figures???.Me thinks that ol horse hair is starting to strain abit now on the celluar level.A discreet push to Frannie that this is a REALLY good idea is all that is needed.:)

You can bet that with 5m in costs and 144,000 piss$d off recurring voters, Fergus and his ballistics buddy won't be getting a promotion, even on seniority.

Game over, Fergus.

Take the pension, lad.

You might get a job as a security consultant - after all, you know a bit about guns (I mean, you defined Olympic Standard when no-one else could).

bpb101

love everybody replys with "get it!" after it hahah.

How some get elected is beyond me.

Deaf git

I don't think Frannie will want the Inspectorate to look at licensing for the simple reason she knows the outcome of their report would cause her a public headache. Just consider- An illegal 'temporary' custody order for 30 years, shambolic record management, 'lost' documents, the ignoramus decisions, ego driven court cases and so called experts in Olympic shooting.... oh ffs the list goes on but lets not forget the toy guns and massaged stats.
Any bold behaviour on the part of the Dept or AGS is ultimately the responsibility of the Minister. So a negative report would reflect badly on Frannie and the current government. Is she going to voluntarily open this clusterfack?

bpb101

lads are the committee asking for an independent review and the gardai to their own review as well?

The independent review should differently be international people and the gardai one thrown out before its even published

yubabill1

My source has never let me down when it comes to the crunch - got the whisper the proposals were in trouble

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94429530&postcount=1581

knockon

And this is pure gold (of course as long as the Minister does that)......

The Committee has also agreed to write to the Minister for Justice and Equality Frances Fitzgerald to ask her to consider requesting the Garda Inspectorate to independently assess the procedures and practices related to firearms licencing and the proposals contained in the Firearms Review, which was published by the Joint Department of Justice and Equality / Garda Síochána Working Group last November.

Witcher

I was just thinking again about what the guards put down as stolen firearms...fcking gun safes etc.



How the fcuk did they think that would fly? :pac:

I know it's not exactly a laughing matter but I just make sense of the thought process :pac: