Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45

Deaf git wrote: »

I don't think Frannie will want the Inspectorate to look at licensing for the simple reason she knows the outcome of their report would cause her a public headache. Just consider- An illegal 'temporary' custody order for 30 years, shambolic record management, 'lost' documents, the ignoramus decisions, ego driven court cases and so called experts in Olympic shooting.... oh ffs the list goes on but lets not forget the toy guns and massaged stats.
Any bold behaviour on the part of the Dept or AGS is ultimately the responsibility of the Minister. So a negative report would reflect badly on Frannie and the current government. Is she going to voluntarily open this clusterfack?

Just so what any Irish politican has done since the foundation of the state and say"It wasnt me,I inherited this mess.Its the oppositions fault." And anyway whats to worry Frannie arent the AGS supposed to be seperate from the political decisions andthe Dept of Justice??? What?...You mean they arent???....oh oh Well I suggest you learn how to say" I can neither deny or confirm that statement" very convinceingly.

Deaf git

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just so what any Irish politican has done since the foundation of the state and say"It wasnt me,I inherited this mess.Its the oppositions fault." And anyway whats to worry Frannie arent the AGS supposed to be seperate from the political decisions andthe Dept of Justice??? What?...You mean they arent???....oh oh Well I suggest you learn how to say" I can neither deny or confirm that statement" very convinceingly.

Thats Bart Simpsons defence 'it was that way when I found it'.
It wont work for the Minister and current government. The granting of licenses is an Executive decision for senior Gardai. The Minister has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that the Executive systems are functioning satisfactorily and that has not happened for some time- hence 650+ court cases.
The minister won't like this outcome- someone will be carpeted at the very least, watch for transfers or maybe even a retirement.

B412

After watching that bull**** last night, has any one been able to find out how many Garda issued firearms have been lost or stolen(sorry misplaced) over the last 3 to 4 years, my under standing it's 6?

B412

Deaf git unfortunately the transfers have already been made ,and the worst of the anti gun members of in An Garda are still in there old posts

Cass

B412 wrote: »

........... has any one been able to find out how many Garda issued firearms have been lost or stolen(sorry misplaced) over the last 3 to 4 years, my under standing it's 6?

Which type of answer would you like?

• McGrath type answer - 1,000,000.
• Healy type answer - None, because you cannot prove otherwise.
• Known answer - If i recall correctly it's about 6
• Possible answer - No idea as they would be able to hide such figures under operational security, brushing such losses under the rug and keeping it all in house.

We only know about the 6 through reports in the papers, members of An Gardaí having to declare the gun stolen (seriously), and people actually finding them.

Grizzly 45

Deaf git wrote: »

Thats Bart Simpsons defence 'it was that way when I found it'.
It wont work for the Minister and current government. The granting of licenses is an Executive decision for senior Gardai. The Minister has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that the Executive systems are functioning satisfactorily and that has not happened for some time- hence 650+ court cases.
The minister won't like this outcome- someone will be carpeted at the very least, watch for transfers or maybe even a retirement.

And this is where the AGS/DOJ ping pong match takes place.Neither will admit that the other has any executive fundtion in either organisation Which the dogs in the disco know its a load of aul toss!but eventually it will fall in that case in both their laps .Both depts are then equally at fault.

Sparks

https://twitter.com/Finianmcgrathtd/status/576046719189848064

Possibly I shouldn't have responded while upset after reading about Terry Pratchett.

turismo2142

Yeah gutted, There goes my childhood hero.

AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER

Cannot get over how,reprehensible McGrath is. Get it? Christ, what an ass.

black powder colt

How many of those firearms listed as stolen were taken from the army i have to assume the grenade was stolen from the military unless it came from an evidence locker or something and if this is the case should that not be the big story here.

garrettod

black powder colt wrote: »

How many of those firearms listed as stolen were taken from the army i have to assume the grenade was stolen from the military unless it came from an evidence locker or something and if this is the case should that not be the big story here.

Perhaps the grenade was stolen from one of the criminals, who took part in the survey they were doing to try and ascertain how many illegal guns were held in Ireland :D

Grizzly 45

black powder colt wrote: »

How many of those firearms listed as stolen were taken from the army i have to assume the grenade was stolen from the military unless it came from an evidence locker or something and if this is the case should that not be the big story here.

Possibly probably and hopefully a DEACT grenade??But why then was it registerd as a firearm?

marlin vs

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Possibly probably and hopefully a DEACT grenade??But why then was it registerd as a firearm?

You could be right.

http://www.waterford-news.ie/2015/01/27/historic-grenade-found-during-excavation-in-co-wexford/

http://www.waterford-news.ie/2014/04/26/live-grenade-found-in-galway/

bpb101

lads . this is pulse.

It could be a paintball grenade or stolen maybe form a museum of some sort ?

It very lightly its not a grenade we are all thinking of.

could even be this


Picture is of dog chew toy

marlin vs

Or from Aldi and Lidl.

yubabill1

NASRPC sponsored Journal.ie article showing 50% decrease in firearms thefts 2003-13

Also update from PQ thread courtesy Sparks (forgive the format loss)

Type 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Total
Rifles 42 68 65 60 41 276
Shotguns 176 206 163 170 111 826
Handguns 2 2 1 2 - 7

TOTAL 220 276 229 232 152 1,109


This is a chart I downloaded from CSO of possession of firearms offences 2003 -14

bpb101

yubabill1 wrote: »

NASRPC sponsored Journal.ie article showing 50% decrease in firearms thefts 2003-13

Also update from PQ thread courtesy Sparks (forgive the format loss)

Type 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Total
Rifles 42 68 65 60 41 276
Shotguns 176 206 163 170 111 826
Handguns 2 2 1 2 - 7

TOTAL 220 276 229 232 152 1,109


This is a chart I downloaded from CSO of possession of firearms offences 2003 -14

Missed that article , was it posted here before.???

Fairly well written imo. I dosent say the nasprc sponsored it. Did it say it at the time?
got 11,000 views as well
worth the few bob to make sure articles are well written

edit: ahahha , this was last year. I read it as this year, considering whats up in the air know , it makes sense still in this context. i was wondering about shatter .:L

Limerick Sovereigns

How can so many people get done for possession of a firearm when there are only 25 illegal guns in circulation?

Do the Guards return them to the "pool" after each conviction?

Nekarsulm

I'd say they have ballistic evidence indicating the same 25 or so guns are in constant use/circulation. They just haven't intercepted them yet.

Interestingly, Dept. Finian McGrath claims that there are 150,000 illegal guns in republic.
That's one illegal gun for every 7 houses, approx.
So if I drive down a regular street, and pass 100 houses, by Finians reckoning, I have passed 14 illegal guns.
Amazing that the Gardaí don't find them more often?

Sparks

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Interestingly, Dept. Finian McGrath claims that there are 150,000 illegal guns in republic.
That's one illegal gun for every 7 houses, approx.
So if I drive down a regular street, and pass 100 houses, by Finians reckoning, I have passed 14 illegal guns.
Amazing that the Gardaí don't find them more often?

Yeah, that's that Small Arms Survey figure again...

clawback07

Can someone remind me as to how many legally held licensed firearms there are supposed to be in the country ?

Sparks

Just over 200,000.

clawback07

That's a guaranteed 5.3 million Euros of revenue every year ,not to mention sales of accessories , dog food, ammunition, and the revenue from firearm sales , and not a cent back to Joe Shooter for education or conservation .......we're a quiet race !

Sparks

There's been a few studies into the economic impact of it by a researcher in NUIG over the years if you want better data, but basically, yes.

bravestar

Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »

How can so many people get done for possession of a firearm when there are only 25 illegal guns in circulation?

Do the Guards return them to the "pool" after each conviction?

That's not what was said and trying to be a smart arse and sinking to their level will not do us any favours.

It was quite obvious what was meant was that their were 25 guns that had a forensic signature match repeatedly used in different crimes. A pool of 25 guns, not only 25 guns, but the same 25 used more than once at least. 1000 could have been used, but the same 25 keep making cameos.

Deaf git

The working group's report didn't receive the expected support at Committee stage. We are now looking at further consultation with academics and possibly an examination of the current administration of firearms licensing by AGS.
So where to next?
The DOJ didn't get their way. Ags didn't get their way. Shooters aren't getting our way.
Is there room for an interim working solution pending a remedy to the clusterfack that is the Firearms Acts?
Ideas anyone?

Grizzly 45

Yes ,start talking to each other now and actually listening to each other as was suggested by judge Lucey at my appeal as Sparks has been saying for years.As any person who has looked at this over the monthswith no skin in the game has said.

yubabill1

clawback07 wrote: »

That's a guaranteed 5.3 million Euros of revenue every year ,not to mention sales of accessories , dog food, ammunition, and the revenue from firearm sales , and not a cent back to Joe Shooter for education or conservation .......we're a quiet race !

The NARGC received an ever-decreasing clawback of licence revenue from '72-'85, when it was stopped due to the recession.

They are proposing a rod licence the last few years and have got fishing orgs onside by promising a cut of revenue to them......

Sparks

Deaf git wrote: »

The working group's report didn't receive the expected support at Committee stage. We are now looking at further consultation with academics and possibly an examination of the current administration of firearms licensing by AGS.
So where to next?

Well, several academics get consulted (that list is currently confidential) and the inspectorate may contribute a review, and then the Committee prepares a report and that goes to the Minister. In parallel with that (and possibly somewhat faster), the Working Group (ie. the Gardai and DoJ) prepare their report and that goes to the Minister. Then the Minister has consultations with interested parties (yes, that includes us) and makes a decision.

The timeline involved may mean that it won't be this Minister by the time we get to the end of the process, but that's not for certain. But if we don't at least have an idea soon, the next large batch of licence renewals are due to go out in June or July...

The DOJ didn't get their way. Ags didn't get their way.

Think you might be conflating the two there without necessarily being correct; if your (and here I mean you, the reader, personally) choice is "do this or find another job" in this economy, which would you do?

Shooters aren't getting our way.

Certainly not 100% of it anyway.

Is there room for an interim working solution pending a remedy to the clusterfack that is the Firearms Acts?

Yes, ample room. Loads of it.
Simply enforce the firearms act as written and if a firearms cert application has to be refused - and it would be dumb-as-a-post to suggest that that never has to happen - be honest and up front about the reasons. If you think an applicant isn't suitable to hold a firearm, say so openly. Section 4(2)(b) of the act requires the Gardai to not issue certs in such cases. But don't come out with "I don't like this kind of firearm" or similar reasons, because those aren't legal, they're downright unconstitutional according to the Supreme Court in Dunne.

Meanwhile, reinstate the FCP and point them at the current mess that is the firearms act, and the 15 or 16 other acts that shooters have to follow, with two immediate tasks:

1. Fixing the firearms act so they can repeal all the existing firearms acts and pass one restated act with typos and mistakes fixed, and all the related SIs that accompany it; and
2. Preparing a "Here is the law you have to follow when you have a firearms certificate" booklet for all new applicants that everyone gets sent when they successfully apply for a new firearms certificate.

And then keep the FCP on with three functions:

1. Providing expert technical information for any future SIs or Acts that may be needed;
2. Providing confidential expert technical advice for any issuing person (ie. Garda Superintendents, Garda Chief Superintendents and District Court Justices) who may have questions pertaining to applications for firearms certificates; (BTW, when I say confidential here, I'm fupping serious. It would never be used if people thought the questions and answers would get used for public or private ridicule over someone not knowing the answer and having to ask for expert advice)
3. Maintaining open formal communications links between the Gardai, the Department (and hence the Minister), the shooting community, the Department of Sport, the insurers, and so forth (and also maintaining informal communications, but that tends to happen organically when formal links are kept open).

End result; working law that everyone can read, and everyone knows everyone else so we don't get more of the fear-of-the-unknown that drives a lot of the problems. Everything calms down, everyone stops shouting, and we actually get something accomplished for once.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yes ,start talking to each other now and actually listening to each other as was suggested by judge Lucey at my appeal as Sparks has been saying for years.As any person who has looked at this over the monthswith no skin in the game has said.

As you said previously, it will be interesting to see the outcome of licensing policy, now that costs can be allowed in certain DC cases.

Solution, knowing Irish politicians probably some kind of appeals mechanism that costs THEM nothing, talks starting well after the next GE.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

it will be interesting to see the outcome of licensing policy, now that costs can be allowed in certain DC cases

I think that it's pretty reasonable to assume that a lot of Supers, if told that the appeals costs will come from their operational budgets, will just want a blanket ban because they don't care about the sports at all but do care about their budgets. That's pretty much the biggest risk here from our point of view.

Solution, knowing Irish politicians probably some kind of appeals mechanism that costs THEM nothing, talks starting well after the next GE.

There was a suggestion at the back of the Working Group's proposals document - though it was listed as being rejected on grounds which I personally think are factually incorrect - for an internal Garda review of appeals as a first stage in the appeals process (and then the DC process would still be there after that stage if the applicant was still unsatisfied). An internal review by someone other than the issuing person, that wouldn't be a bad first step, though obviously that depends heavily on the details of how it's implemented.