Gardai proposals to ban firearms

meathstevie

If I was a legislator, working for the DPP or a Garda involved in the investigation of gun crime I'd have my back up over something like someone not even getting a custodial sentence for possession of a submachine gun as well and I'd be actively looking for stiffer penalties as well.

As a gun owner I have no problem at all that criminals in illegal possession of weaponry of any kind get a proper punishment.

Nekarsulm

Like when someone puts a Mac10 into their wheelie bin?
And gets a suspended sentence?
If you were a Guard, you would wonder why you bother.......

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sparks, does a restatement of the act require a vote in the Dail?

Pretty sure it does BC, and it definitely will the way it should be done at the moment, which is to do a restatement and then make amendments to the restatement to fix problems like the lack of a definition of "target shooting" and that sort of thing.

meathstevie

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty sure it does BC, and it definitely will the way it should be done at the moment, which is to do a restatement and then make amendments to the restatement to fix problems like the lack of a definition of "target shooting" and that sort of thing.

A whole load of patches are needed on that leaky hull. The parliamentary merry-go-round can keep turning for the foreseeable future before all that ever gets through.

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty sure it does BC, and it definitely will the way it should be done at the moment, which is to do a restatement and then make amendments to the restatement to fix problems like the lack of a definition of "target shooting" and that sort of thing.

I would just be worried that the powers that be might just add in these proposals while restating the firearms acts.

I don't have a whole lot of trust in our leaders.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

I would just be worried that the powers that be might just add in these proposals while restating the firearms acts.

The proposals to increase the sentences? They probably will. Those wouldn't worry me. It's what else might get proposed that would cause the problem - you start off with a simple goal of getting to one single readable firearms act, and then every backbencher looking to get into the papers shows up to committee stage with "just this small idea that'll fix everything" (Really Deputy? Spent twenty years in the sport, have you? Know what the current law is? No? But you think you can fix the law without knowing what it is or anything about what it regulates? Seriously? Go home Deputy McGrath...)

That's what happened the last few times we've done this dance...

BattleCorp

Sparks wrote: »

The proposals to increase the sentences? They probably will. Those wouldn't worry me. It's what else might get proposed that would cause the problem - you start off with a simple goal of getting to one single readable firearms act, and then every backbencher looking to get into the papers shows up to committee stage with "just this small idea that'll fix everything" (Really Deputy? Spent twenty years in the sport, have you? Know what the current law is? No? But you think you can fix the law without knowing what it is or anything about what it regulates? Seriously? Go home Deputy McGrath...)

That's what happened the last few times we've done this dance...

That restatement of the firearms act is starting to sound awful dangerous so.

hexosan

If the proposals go through and a super or chief is allowed to restrict all new application in a district due to high crime has anyone thought about what happens if say insurance companies decide you live in a high crime area we're going to be increasing your home insurance and car insurance premiums. This would affect all residents the armed and unarmed equally.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

That restatement of the firearms act is starting to sound awful dangerous so.

It is and it isn't. The restatement itself is governed by the restatement act, and the restatement can't include changes. Taking the restatements that the law reform commission has done, and repealing all prior acts and passing the restatement as the current firearms act, that's where the problem with backbenchers can arise.

But what's the alternative? You draft a new law from a blank slate and you will have that problem but tenfold; everyone would stampede to get their fingerprints on it. And we can hardly keep going with the hodgepodge we have now, when it takes months of study just to read and understand the damn thing, what with all the repeals, noncommencements, amendments and so on.

Get the FCP rolling again, give them the task of preparing that Bill, let the Minister wash her hands of the drafting process and let the stakeholders argue it out over a table. It's not an ideal solution, but there is no such animal in Ireland and this would be the best compromise anyone could realistically hope for.

Roundpack

AGSI Conference, reported in the Indo: "Criminals do not appear to have any difficulty obtaining illegal firearms. They are brought into the country illegally and often included in drug shipments as sweeteners to the deal."

garrettod

Roundpack wrote: »

AGSI Conference, reported in the Indo: "Criminals do not appear to have any difficulty obtaining illegal firearms. They are brought into the country illegally and often included in drug shipments as sweeteners to the deal."

Apparently ....Sergeants and inspectors also say all gardaí authorised to carry a gun should undergo mandatory training to the highest level, not just basic training as is currently the case, and that there should be sufficient armed gardaí available all over the country.

In my mind, the ideal scenario would be that all Gardai become members of clubs and put in X amount of hours at the range, each month. That would help the clubs in terms of additional regular members joining and the Gardai, in both getting regular practice (without having to travel half way across the country to a Garda range) and in getting to know the licence holders etc. I know some members of the Gardai are already club members, but I think it would be excellent to have them all signed up.

Sparks

Honestly garrettod, would you really want them thinking of our clubs as places you go to for tactical training with firearms?

garrettod

Sparks wrote: »

Honestly garrettod, would you really want them thinking of our clubs as places you go to for tactical training with firearms?

When all is said and done, Yes I would because:

A) They would have first hand experience of the safety precautions taken by licence holders.

They would have fomally recognised the clubs as being of an acceptable safe standard, if they were using them.

C) It should not be an "us and them" type situation, as it currently appears to be. The culture needs to change in Ireland and I can't think of a better way to help make that happen, than having everyone interacting, using the same facilities etc.

While I take your point, in tems of the language you've used... the simple fact is that the mindset needs to change with many Irish people, so thinking of somewhere to go for tactical firearms training doesn't focus on "tactical firearms", but focuses on "training", if you know what I mean.

In an unrelated comment, you actually hit the nail on the head yourself when referencing the recent comment from the Garda Commissioner, when she referred to licence holders as safe people (or similar), thats how we need to be seen by everyone and I can't think of a better way then through integration with Gardai or even army training facilities.

Sparks

Okay, but they're specifically asking for tactical training in firearms.
Which we don't do.
Which legally, we are prohibited from doing.
If they wanted to learn safe firearm handling and basic target shooting, no worries, the more the merrier and I'd love to see a Garda team competing (the Defence Forces do it, why not the Gardai?)

But when they specifically say they want training in the use of firearms for shooting at people, I really, really, really don't want them thinking we could provide that.

garrettod

Hi,

Obviously, I take your point Sparks.

I'm not specifically suggesting everyone get access to tactical training, but no reason in theory why clubs could not provide different types of training to different members (i.e. tactical training for defense forces / Gardai etc.).

That said, those same Gardai or members of the defence forces would also have use of the same ranges as the rest of us, participate in club competitions, buy equipment from the club shop, have a cuppa in the clubhouse with fellow members etc.

Steve012

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Like when someone puts a Mac10 into their wheelie bin?
And gets a suspended sentence?
If you were a Guard, you would wonder why you bother.......

Really?, who in the christ was left off with that?. a full auto. :eek:

Nekarsulm

Steve012 wrote: »

Really?, who in the christ was left off with that?. a full auto. :eek:

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/12/28/sub-machine-gun-stored-by-creche-worker-for-cash/

http://www.live95fm.ie/news/woman-who-stored-machine-gun-escapes-jail/21315

Don't know if full auto.

4 years suspended.

Steve012

Nekarsulm wrote: »

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/12/28/sub-machine-gun-stored-by-creche-worker-for-cash/

http://www.live95fm.ie/news/woman-who-stored-machine-gun-escapes-jail/21315

Don't know if full auto.

4 years suspended.

Very lucky silly girl.. No previous convictions, so what!?!
At least they got the gun off the streets.

Wadi14

garrettod wrote: »

Hi,

Obviously, I take your point Sparks.

I'm not specifically suggesting everyone get access to tactical training, but no reason in theory why clubs could not provide different types of training to different members (i.e. tactical training for defense forces / Gardai etc.).

That said, those same Gardai or members of the defence forces would also have use of the same ranges as the rest of us, participate in club competitions, buy equipment from the club shop, have a cuppa in the clubhouse with fellow members etc.

The Defence Forces and AGS carry out their own training on the Army ranges , civilian ranges are not suitable for all the types of shooting and tactical training they do, any member of the Defence Forces and AGS who shoot outside their job are members of their local clubs and ranges and do contribute to them, so watch out that fella beside you eating the cream bun might be a Garda lol

turismo2142

Steve012 wrote: »

Very lucky silly girl.. No previous convictions, so what!?!
At least they got the gun off the streets.

Result seems appropriate to me. Prosecution admitted she was vulnerable and unlikely to reoffend (sounds like valuable Intel was exchanged) plus she's a mother of young kids. What benefit would accrue to society by imposing an immediate custodial?

If it was a man, he'd be in prison now...you all might have your views on that but it's the way things tend to be...rightly or wrongly.

Grizzly 45

Steve012 wrote: »

Very lucky silly girl.. No previous convictions, so what!?!
At least they got the gun off the streets.

It was apprently a FA or better said select fire.
She isnt the sharpest knife in the drawer either and thats why she was chosen by the gang for this..
On the point of AGS using our ranges and tactical training....Some basic marksmanship and safe gun handling not to mind storage thereof might be in order.Which going by a report in the indo a few years ago is sadly lacking if50% cant consistly hit a bull at 15 meters.
LATER
Well this might have somthing to do with it too.

Meanwhile, gardai have claimed that local detectives are being sent onto the streets to cope with armed incidents without any tactical training.

The last course in the tactical use of firearms was held in the Garda College 15 years ago, the AGSI conference was told.
From todays date Indo article

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/an-extra-250-gardai-to-be-recruited-within-six-months-31109954.html
Seriously bad news ..
Go talk to the airsofters..Seriously..If US SWAT teams German KSK , GSG9, use it for training its good enough for our lot too.Lot cheaper and a lot less chance of shooting dead a colleuge because somone got the real ammo mixed up with the blanks on the range(UK) or didnt issue the simmunition and blue barrel for a live service pistol as the officer was late and the range armourer wasnt paying attention.(Frankfurt police).

Wadi14

instead of live firing exercises which the Army does carry out, they also have the capability to train with laser systems attached to their firearms and sensors attached to the personnel, the system is computerised and all the data can be retrieved for analysis

meathstevie

Sparks wrote: »

Okay, but they're specifically asking for tactical training in firearms.
Which we don't do.
Which legally, we are prohibited from doing.
If they wanted to learn safe firearm handling and basic target shooting, no worries, the more the merrier and I'd love to see a Garda team competing (the Defence Forces do it, why not the Gardai?)

But when they specifically say they want training in the use of firearms for shooting at people, I really, really, really don't want them thinking we could provide that.

You're spot on Sparks. Teaching and acquiring basic marksman skills is no different from civilian target shooting but there's no way tactical skills can be trained in a "mixed" setup. It's not only the type of activity ( human silhouette targets, fire and move etc etc ) with the firearm but decission making which is crucial and that's not something that can be trained outside a proper training environment.

Grizzly 45

I suppose we could petition to make IPSC legal again.Sure,wasnt that according to those in the know in the AGS[who have just admitted they havent done any such training in almost two decades.Proably explains why they think WA1500 was police firearms training]."Combat and tactical training?":rolleyes::rolleyes:

We are seriously led by the unknowing in this country.:(

SVI40

The only thing clubs could offer AGS would be a safe place to shoot and practice accuracy. Nothing we do has any remote connection to "tactical" shooting. While it would be good to see them on the ranges, and shoot along side them, they would still have to be given training on tactics, which IPSC, or any other club in the country has nothing to do with.

Zxthinger

Sorry for cutting in
Does anyone have a time frame or an approx date as to when an outcome might be forthcoming from the committee.

Also, are the opinions of by he joint committee going to be public knowledge

Also what firearms academics are there in Ireland??

Thanks for any answers which help,

Sparks

In short:
- Later this month according to the Chairman;
- Yes, the report will be published and FOIable;
- Dunno, but I asked and the list is confidential.

bpb101

Zxthinger wrote: »

Also what firearms academics are there in Ireland??

Thanks for any answers which help,

Sparks wrote: »

In short:

- Dunno, but I asked and the list is confidential.

is that the people who are leading the review. I thought it was international selection

Sparks

It's the academics the committee have/will ask to contribute.

turismo2142

What's the rationale behind them being confidential? Seems contrary to the entire ethos of such committees. Did they say why Sparks?