Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Steve012

Hey Lads, excuse my non up to date ness ness... on this eh possible pending ban on some categories of firearms.
Does it look like .22 pistols will be banned? or set to restricted.

Like everyone else I'm f' ing pissed off at this stage with this BS.
To me personally it's getting to the stage where it's taking the fun out of my target shooting hobby/sport, not knowing will I have to hand it in at some stage?, or sell now (if I can) before market in EU is kinda flooded with cheap Irish pre loved pistols.

Like most folks here and at my club, I have a few other firearms so I ain't just concerned about the pistol.

Cass

Under this post, in my sign line, there is a link to a summarised recap on the issues. Start to present. It's a bit long, but nowhere near as long as some 180 pages of talk about it.

If it helps the really, REALLY, short version is:

• Gardaí wanted pistols & semi auto rifles banned/restricted along with semi auto & pup shotguns (among a host of other stuff)
• We argued against it
• Meetings were held by Oireachtas committee with An Gardaí & shooting bodies
• Secret proposals sent in by SC proposing a "cap" on pistol and semi auto rifle
• Meeting held by Minister for justice, Garda Commissioner and interested shooting bodies on April 29th (this year)
• Law as it stands now is still the same as when you got your pistol

Steve012

Thanks Cass!, I have been following it to a point, it just gets a bit hairy, with all there different shooting bodies involved. I thought I heard there might of been some headway good or bad by this week, must of picked up a post wrong along the way,
Cheers for brief breakdown!.

Cass

Not so much headway as a lack of bad news.

The meeting with the Minster on April 29th went well according to all sources. They (Minister and Commissioner) admitted the previous figures for stolen guns was hugely wrong (however her updated figure still needs attention), admitted that licensed gun owners are not a problem or threat to public safety and no link to criminality should be applied t gun owners. She listened to what was said, discussed the matters and made no promises other than to say she would (if necessary) hold further meetings with the interested parties before any decision is reached.

That's it in a, not too specific, nutshell.

black powder colt

Cass wrote: »

Not so much headway as a lack of bad news.

The meeting with the Minster on April 29th went well according to all sources. They (Minister and Commissioner) admitted the previous figures for stolen guns was hugely wrong (however her updated figure still needs attention), admitted that licensed gun owners are not a problem or threat to public safety and no link to criminality should be applied t gun owners. She listened to what was said, discussed the matters and made no promises other than to say she would (if necessary) hold further meetings with the interested parties before any decision is reached.

That's it in a, not too specific, nutshell.

So in your educated opinion how long is this nonsense going to drag on for before someone gets off the can and makes a decision either way

meathstevie

The best decission at this point would be to make no decission implementing further restrictions as there's no objective need for it. The Minister and the Commissioner have at this point already stated that licenced shooters and their sports equipment in their opinion are not a problem.

Criminals may steal the odd firearm and use it as a tool of their trade but it's not like they tend to buy the vehicles they use in their activities on a hire purchase agreement with the credit union either.

The best changes that can be made in my opinion is gun safes compulsory for all firearms, independent licencing authority with binding Garda applicant character advice and Garda access to ownership details, licencing in line with EU guidelines on categorisation so you do away with some of the make it up as you go along nonsense that's in vogue now.

Sparks

We keep talking about what changes would be best.

The problem is that any changes would have to go through the Oireachtas, and that means that not only would you have to get a Bill drafted despite the opposition of certain parties in the Gardai, and despite all the help from the Attorney General's office, and all the supervision from the Justice department; but you then have to see that Bill go through a Dail full of backbench TDs in the months before an election when they are desperate to get media attention.

I don't care how perfect the Bill you draft is, the Oireachtas will do to it what your digestive system does to a five-star michelin meal prepared by the finest chef in the best restaurant in the world, and what comes out the other end in both cases will bear a striking resemblance to each other.

garrettod

Hi,

For what it's worth, I reckon this could easily drag on into the next election, then end up getting thrown in a bottom drawer somewhere and forgotten about for twelve or eighteen months, while a new government settles in. Off the top of my head, I think we've a year to go until an election (maximum), with summer holidays quicking coming up and who knows what else, to keep the DOJ busy during the remainder of the current Government's term.

My only fear is, that someone will try and do a deal on an "interim" basis and dare I say it, tell the Gardai to sit on licences, while the election takes place... causing absolute havoc and resulting in more court cases to try and get licences sorted out under current legislation.

Actually, sorry I've got a second fear now I think about it, post election, the independents (having formed some sort of working group and now being in parternship in Government), vote FMcG in as the new Minister for Justice. Just imagine, we'd have British road signs all over the palce.... :rolleyes:

Traumadoc

I don't think there will be any legislation forcing farmers to buy safes before the election.

Grizzly 45

Time to the election might be shorter than we think!Rumous circulating in the political world are saying Nov this year that FG is going to the country to pre empt any SF FF hijack of 2016 commerations.... If that were the case Id say proably March April 2016....IF these rumours are true that is.So that might stymie any political hay being made ofit by back benchers or Trottie school teachers

Traumadoc

Heard a similar rumour during the week, election after the budget.

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

I don't care how perfect the Bill you draft is, the Oireachtas will do to it what your digestive system does to a five-star michelin meal prepared by the finest chef in the best restaurant in the world, and what comes out the other end in both cases will bear a striking resemblance to each other.

And by illustration, this is from yesterday in the Dail from our mustachio'd friend:

Finian McGrath wrote:

When talking about crime and the proceeds of crime, as I mentioned earlier, we also need to think about the issue of firearms. There is significant a public safety concern among broader society about the availability of firearms, both legal and illegal. According to recent research done by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, there are around 150,000 unregistered firearms. I am not talking about the responsible gun owners and the sensible people. I am talking about unregistered firearms. It is important to mention the threat to broader society. Between 2005 and 2008, 31 handguns were stolen and 1,236 other civilian firearms were stolen. Of the 1,236 firearms, only 373 were recovered. We need to be focused, and responsible gun owners need to be vigilant.
They need to be careful. We need strong regulation and commonsense when dealing with this issue because we have enough guns in the broader society, a fact which must be recognised.

That's him laying claim to research done in Oxford in 2007, though to call it research is stretching the english language quite a bit because the figure was made up without any supporting reasoning being given and he knows this because it was a prominent point in several written submissions to the Committee; and he's also still repeating statistics that have been shredded (and not mentioning that the figure has fallen from 1700 to 1200 since he last mentioned them, nor why they've fallen, nor that they should fall further, because to do so would point out that the figures are so error-ridden we can't trust them).

This is what you'd hit, in committee rooms, with no chance to rebut it, and this is what would drive additions to the Firearms Act on top of whatever perfect Bill you'd managed to draft (though in reality, you'd never get to draft it, it'd be a long slog of a fight to get even to this stage).

Basically, the thing we should really be looking for here is to ditch the idea of making any changes at all. Just drop the whole idea. Grab people, shove them in a room, call it the FCP 2 and come back to it after the election. You might have a chance then. But now? And when this would be coming up? Not a hope. Bloody dangerous to even try.

Why anyone would continue to push for changes like this at this time instead of fighting against them... well, I leave that to the reader to contemplate. Because I can't think of a good reason.

meathstevie

150000 unlicensed firearms roughly comes down to give or take one illegal gun per every 40 inhabitants of the country. Even for cheap propaganda purposes Mr McGrath must know that even in the worst crime ridden districts of this nation averages will be nowhere near that.

Not even from the Home Rule crisis till the end of the Civil War when Ireland was awash with firearms would we have been near that ratio.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Time to the election might be shorter than we think!Rumous circulating in the political world are saying Nov this year that FG is going to the country to pre empt any SF FF hijack of 2016 commerations.... If that were the case Id say proably March April 2016....IF these rumours are true that is.So that might stymie any political hay being made ofit by back benchers or Trottie school teachers

Of course, the timing of the election is one of a few critical factors the MoJ is considering re: these firearms proposals.

I have no political affiliations, but I have eyes and ears.

Some talk in FG about real possibility of getting back into power

- a ringing victory in SSM referendum will put wind in their sails
- the Tory outright victory in UK from a confused outset (FG = Tory - Garret/Maggie)
- they actually believe their own rhetoric about economic recovery
- they believe a budget targeted at middle income workers will boost their vote.

Do I have to add that

- mass-going conservatives are FG's main vote
- Tory victory came from opposition ineptitude - Labour campaign didn't criticise austerity
- this has been called a Yellowpack recovery (zero hours, interns etc)
- nothing for the disabled/elderly who have lost phone allowance/ESB units/heat allowance and who are saddled with the same bills as the wealthy, irrespective of ability to pay (happily, they won't be sent to jail, now - it will be taken from their pension, instead)?

Labour will simply be decimated:
- 80,000 new Irish citizens since 2011 to compete with unemployed Irish/ EU citizens here for work (read: increased competition means lower wages - the Bilderbergers can't believe their luck).

Of course, we have no alternative (true).
Wait 'till we have to listen to their grovelling about past election promises.

Good luck with that.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Of course, the timing of the election is one of a few critical factors ............

Yep to all that.FG comparied to the UK Tories ...in their dreams....About as comparable to chalk and the Bolivan football team of 1965.
But be prepared for a long hot Summer, (eventhough the weather mightnt oblige)on the political front ...FG is filling up the slurry wagon and heading over to SF HQ to empty it in the window.
I get the feeling two options will happen.Either get this sorted by Dail Summer recess if this is true about going to the country or put it in a box until after the elections and let whoever wins deal with it....Prefably option two as we have had enough hasty law on firearms here to see what sort of a mess comes from that.

Cass

All post relating to new company "Irish Firearms & Hunting Training Academy" have been moved to their own thread. To prevent further posts naming names the thread has been locked until the issuing of the B10 form at which point the thread will be re-opened for discussion.

Nekarsulm

Had a rep. from the IFA visit yesterday, looking to sign up members.
Give him a grilling about the proposals and IFA attitude.
Hadn't a clue what I was on about, couldn't wait to escape........

pm.

Any update ?

Grizzly 45

Did any of the fellow winners in the March 2015 .22 high court cases get a letter/email from William Egan today on further procedings?

Basically......

Hold off for another month as there are 3more HC cases that might or might not be fought by the state?Should know by June 30th...

2] . The Sports Coalition has recently made a Submission to the Minister for Justice proposing a detailed modus operandi for resolving all the issues concerning the licensing of .22s which, if accepted by the Minister, will result in your being granted your Firearm Certificate.

Thoughts ?

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

2] . The Sports Coalition has recently made a Submission to the Minister for Justice proposing a detailed modus operandi for resolving all the issues concerning the licensing of .22s which, if accepted by the Minister, will result in your being granted your Firearm Certificate.

Thoughts ?

Sounds like the same old 5" barrel BS etc to me.

dc99

I was sucessful in March last and the AGS really couldn't give me my licence back fast enough.
I didn't even prompt them.

Never expected it to work so fast for me.....have firearm now and all.

yubabill1

Today's Sunday Times 7/6/15 reports the CSO data audit of Garda crime stats will show revised higher levels of burglary, theft and assault than previously recorded.

CSO to brief Min Frances Fitzgerald tomorrow ahead of publication of Q3+4 2014 and Q1 2015 crime stats, delayed by the audit.

Audit report to be published at the end of this month.

Niall Collins FF said Garda resources misallocated as a result of data failures and Padraig Mac Lochlainn SF said "re-classifying" "junking the stats" had happened.

No link as report is behind a paywall.

Cass

So its a case of reporting events as they are and not what they are recorded that has lead to the higher rates?

The CSO have been very vocal over the last few years about the Garda stats to the point, and i think i said this before, that they refused to verify/stamp or sign off on them.

Grizzly 45

From Facebook

HELP NEEDED - Sports Coalition update from Des Crofton, Spokesperson and NARGC Director:
The firearms review is still not concluded and the renewal process is due to start at the end of July. Under the current Garda policy, the renewal of licenses for small calibre .22 handguns for target shooting, which are currently licensed, and have been for the past two licensing periods, will be unlawfully refused.
It is now approximately six weeks since we met the Minister and the Garda Commissioner following which we put forward definitive proposals which would bring matters to a conclusion, resulting in bringing to an end the litigation which has characterised the firearms licensing process. In the meantime, the Minister has agreed to visit Harbour House Shooting Range shortly where she will get a demonstration of the target shooting disciplines and the types of guns used.
However, we are concerned that we have heard nothing further from the Minister and/or her officials in advance of her visit to the range. There has been no response to our proposal nor an indication of a wish to even discuss it. The Sports Coalition is concerned that this silence may indicate a decision already made to implement draconian measures and that the range visit is simply ‘window dressing’.
We therefore ask all members of all associations and clubs to immediately again contact their TD’s and Senators (especially those from Fine Gael and Labour) to:
A) Request the Minister to respond to the Coalition’s proposal;
Impress upon her that the absence of engagement is giving rise to suspicion and therefore pressure from members for the Coalition to become more pro-active in the defence of the members’ interests and to accept the support of the RISE Campaign in the run-up to the General Election.
C) Tell the TD’s and Senators that in response to the concerns of its collective member, the Sports Coalition has found it necessary to meet with its legal advisors last week to discuss a contingency in the event that any currently licensed firearms are capped or banned. Tell them that a cap or ban of any currently licensed firearm will be regarded as a hostile act and will not be accepted.
D) Tell the TD’s and Senators to impress upon the Minister that the proposal for settlement which we have submitted is the only one which will resolve all matters and bring all litigation to an end thereby bringing certainty to the licensing process without compromising public safety and this has been confirmed by the Sports Coalition’s legal advisors.
We again need everyone’s assistance to keep this matter moving. We cannot allow it to be ‘kicked down the road’ until after an election. That point should be made very firmly and that there is a feeling developing that there are behind the scenes moves to try to ‘con’ the shooting community.

BattleCorp

C) Tell the TD’s and Senators that in response to the concerns of its collective member, the Sports Coalition has found it necessary to meet with its legal advisors last week to discuss a contingency in the event that any currently licensed firearms are capped or banned. Tell them that a cap or ban of any currently licensed firearm will be regarded as a hostile act and will not be accepted.

I thought that they were happy to agree to a cap or ban on certain types of firearms such as a cap on semi auto rifles, and a ban on .22 pistols with a barrel length of less than 5 inches etc.

Am I wrong?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

the renewal of licenses for small calibre .22 handguns for target shooting, which are currently licensed, and have been for the past two licensing periods, will be unlawfully refused.

Really?
They're actually able to prove this, are they?
:rolleyes:

However, we are concerned that we have heard nothing further from the Minister and/or her officials in advance of her visit to the range. There has been no response to our proposal nor an indication of a wish to even discuss it. The Sports Coalition is concerned that this silence may indicate a decision already made to implement draconian measures and that the range visit is simply ‘window dressing’.

Or maybe the PTB just don't think the Sports Coalition is actually all that.

We therefore ask all members of all associations and clubs to immediately again contact their TD’s and Senators (especially those from Fine Gael and Labour) to:

Yes, because the last thing we want is for the best possible option for us to go ahead.
If all this stuff just stopped, if we got through the election without it coming back up, this would all die in committee. That's the best possible outcome for us. So why the hell should we exert effort to prevent that?
Why go chasing a fight we don't want to have and haven't great odds for winning?
I think Jon Stewart put it most succinctly (even if he was talking about something else):

Impress upon her that the absence of engagement is giving rise to suspicion and therefore pressure from members for the Coalition to become more pro-active in the defence of the members’ interests and to accept the support of the RISE Campaign in the run-up to the General Election.

Eh, no. It's not giving rise to suspicion. We're all pretty much used to things taking ages in government even when people want to do them, and we're all very much aware that this is something nobody wants to do because it's a can of worms and a can opener.

C) Tell the TD’s and Senators that in response to the concerns of its collective member, the Sports Coalition has found it necessary to meet with its legal advisors last week to discuss a contingency in the event that any currently licensed firearms are capped or banned. Tell them that a cap or ban of any currently licensed firearm will be regarded as a hostile act and will not be accepted.

Would you away and ****e.
First off, the Sports Coalition proposed the cap and ban and crowed about it on their website.
Second off, did nobody there think threatening TDs and Senators like that was a bad idea?
Thirdly - will not be accepted? What are you proposing, armed rebellion? Would you lot stop stealing your public statements from twelve year olds having tantrums?

D) Tell the TD’s and Senators to impress upon the Minister that the proposal for settlement which we have submitted is the only one which will resolve all matters and bring all litigation to an end thereby bringing certainty to the licensing process without compromising public safety and this has been confirmed by the Sports Coalition’s legal advisors.

Oh for the love of stupid.
They propose a ban, say a ban would not be accepted, but their proposed ban would solve everything.
And either they're taking the court cases, in which case saying this will solve the litigation problem is one step shy of a shake-down; or they're not in which case they have no say about stopping litigation. Either way, this was a dumbass thing to have put in writing.

We again need everyone’s assistance to keep this matter moving. We cannot allow it to be ‘kicked down the road’ until after an election.

Why? Would it be that without a fight, there's no point in having a Sports Coalition? Seems to me that when a body's reason for existing is to try to win a fight, that kindof biases them to provoke a fight if none is ongoing. That helps nobody.

That point should be made very firmly and that there is a feeling developing that there are behind the scenes moves to try to ‘con’ the shooting community.

Oh, I 100% agree with this, I just don't think it's from politicians.

yubabill1

Pretty bad timing to bring in a ban - pi$$ing off 140,000 voters who are more-or-less aware that there was a petition about something to do with shooting - with an election in November or the Spring.

The renewals will be a Litmus test, but there's always 3 year's time.

SC have low credibility in my little world, but they may become "useful idiots"

Sparks

I just keep remembering this and wondering if we're about to do the same here, but on a larger scale.

Deaf git

Sparks wrote: »

I just keep remembering this and wondering if we're about to do the same here, but on a larger scale.

Change can be dangerous, true. Keeping quiet can be more so.

Tea drinker

a hostile act and will not be accepted.

I dunno, what's wrong with this language? That's the way the unions speak all the time and last time I checked things were just dandy for them.