Gardai proposals to ban firearms

BattleCorp

2011 wrote: »

I'm told by someone that claims to be "close to the action" that it is all good, we will be left alone.
I really don't know whether to believe him or not but to date he has been 100% correct.

Fingers crossed.

I hope you are right.

Witcher

Even if we are, how long until we're here again?

2011

BattleCorp wrote: »

I hope you are right.

So do I

IRLConor

Strider wrote: »

Even if we are, how long until we're here again?

Until the next time a minister, Garda, shooting NGB or shooter throws their toys out of the pram.

It should be several minutes at least.

garrettod

Strider wrote: »

Even if we are, how long until we're here again?

If it proves true that we're going to be left alone, it will be primarily due to the forthcoming election and fear of pi$$ing more voters off I'd imagine. My guess would be that we'll be back in the same space within 12-months of the election however.

That said, what should be the key question now is what are we going to do differently and better, to protect our sporting interests into the future ?

I've read some criticism about the Sporting Coalition in the past few months and yet for some strange reason, I've not seen any alternative representative body making the same sort of impact in the public domain. Maybe I'm missing something very obvious ? Ideally, everyone should be united to protect their sporting interests, but if there is to be more than one representative group, then at least lets be hearing from all equally and make sure the appropriate messages are being delivered, for all to hear.

Obviously, I'm not looking to single out anyone in particular here and I'm not trying to pretend I'm the one to lead a campaign or I'm better than anyone else, but I do think we could all learn from that line, "a little less conversation, a little more action"

Sparks

garrettod wrote: »

I've not seen any alternative representative body making the same sort of impact in the public domain.

You realise there were more non-SC people involved than SC people every time meetings or hearings came up?

I do think we could all learn from that line, "a little less conversation, a little more action"

That's what dropped us in the slurry pit in the first place. Why would we repeat that?

garrettod

Sparks wrote: »

You realise there were more non-SC people involved than SC people every time meetings or hearings came up?

Hey Sparks,

Yes, I do realise it because I went to the trouble to try and find out but that puts me in the minority, I'd think. Furthermore, those other parties don't seem to be getting the publicity and by extension, are most likely missing out on significant support from within the sporting community. Had they been in a position to present a significant petition, have thousands of people go into FG/Labour TDs clinics making reference to the representative bodies in question, would they not have more influence at the negotiating table ? ... I believe they would.

That's what dropped us in the slurry pit in the first place. Why would we repeat that?

Very simple, I'm referring to action of a positive nature.

I'd far rather be proactive, then hide in the shadows and hope to be left alone, then find when the time of need arises I've no idea what to do, sod all support and by the time I get myself organised I've already been rolled over and it's too late.

While I don't know specifically who or what you have in mind, when you refer to being dropped in the slurry pit, I acknowledge that not everyone takes a sensible approach, but the majority of people are sensible, law abiding and have cop on. A little sensible direction will never hurt though....

Deaf git

The problem with the current system and even years back when the FCP was in place, was that some of us found ourselves in the slurry pit simply because of attitudes of local deciding officers or FO's (Or the postcode lottery in other words.)
I met one chap at the range last weekend who waited 4years to licence a gun, eventually succeeding within a few weeks of the Super moving to a different area. His super was infamous for opposition to mods on cf rifles in particular. He also had sod all interest in the voice of reason from any quarter.
Our system is hostage to the foibles of individual deciding officers. You can see the same error in the Planning system, some counties being ok and others insane.

yubabill1

garrettod wrote: »

If it proves true that we're going to be left alone, it will be primarily due to the forthcoming election and fear of pi$$ing more voters off I'd imagine. My guess would be that we'll be back in the same space within 12-months of the election however.

That and the fact that the WG proposals were part-based on crime statistics which have had to be revised (and released this same week) and part-based on a "forward-looking risk assessment" compiled by the departed Garda Commissioner (whose departure is the basis of a current investigation)

garrettod wrote: »

I've read some criticism about the Sporting Coalition in the past few months and yet for some strange reason, I've not seen any alternative representative body making the same sort of impact in the public domain. Maybe I'm missing something very obvious ? Ideally, everyone should be united to protect their sporting interests, but if there is to be more than one representative group, then at least lets be hearing from all equally and make sure the appropriate messages are being delivered, for all to hear.

Have you been living in a cave? This thread is pretty old, but you'll find plenty of posts about working together despite our differences.

I certainly don't like the megalomaniacal SC MO and if we are, indeed to be left alone I would request that the mods organise a forward-looking discussion group on here, with a view towards having effect wrt lobbying/ advocacy etc..

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

revised (and released this same week)

I don't think they were revised - the CSO's reprinted them but they've insisted on releasing them only with an accompanying quality report that says they're awful (something like 20% of all reported crimes going unrecorded).

I certainly don't like the megalomaniacal SC MO and if we are, indeed to be left alone I would request that the mods organise a forward-looking discussion group on here, with a view towards having effect wrt lobbying/ advocacy etc..

As much as I think here's a useful tool for the shooting community as a whole, it's not a governing body and I'd quit before letting it become one.
It's a forum, a communications tool we never had before, and a useful one at that, but we already have governing bodies and I don't particularly think they need replacing myself. As to lobbying, our biggest problem there isn't that we don't do enough, it's that we do too much of the wrong kind. For example, everyone here knows that there were proposals to change the law and so on, but how many knew Derek Burnett was shooting for Ireland in Baku, or that the US just won the Creedmoor Cup in the Midlands, or that IRLConor won yet another nationals in 25yd rifle, all in the last few weeks and months? Or the incredible string of successes that the MPAI shooters are having? That stuff needs to be pushed a hell of a lot harder than it's being pushed.

And on the legislative front, we have lots of folks out there who love showing up in the blazers and doing the big dinners and speaking to crowds about how we're all being screwed by Da Man and how we have to Fight Da Powa and so on; but we have damn few people out there who actually have the knowledge and skills to fix things and they have to fight both those in the AGS who think private firearms ownership is a bad thing and the shouty tablepounders from our side of the table who have made an absolute art form out of sabotaging efforts by "our side" to improve our lot, whether by sinking the FCP, or doing end runs around it to suggest incredibly bad legislation, or by proposing bans to Ministers that nobody was looking for on either side of the table up to that point.

If we took the urge to publicise we see from the tablepounders and pointed that at promoting the sporting achievements we get all the time in our sport; and left the unsexy tedious detailed legislative work to get done by people from all groups who've actually put the time in to learn how this stuff works; well, we'd all be better off.

The odds of us seeing that before this generation dies off and the new people coming up behind take over are vanishingly slim however, and I'm losing hope that that new generation will have anything left to take over when the old shouties finally die off or go away.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

As much as I think here's a useful tool for the shooting community as a whole, it's not a governing body and I'd quit before letting it become one.
It's a forum, a communications tool we never had before, and a useful one at that, but we already have governing bodies and I don't particularly think they need replacing myself. As to lobbying, our biggest problem there isn't that we don't do enough, it's that we do too much of the wrong kind. For example, everyone here knows that there were proposals to change the law and so on, but how many knew Derek Burnett was shooting for Ireland in Baku, or that the US just won the Creedmoor Cup in the Midlands, or that IRLConor won yet another nationals in 25yd rifle, all in the last few weeks and months? Or the incredible string of successes that the MPAI shooters are having? That stuff needs to be pushed a hell of a lot harder than it's being pushed.

And on the legislative front, we have lots of folks out there who love showing up in the blazers and doing the big dinners and speaking to crowds about how we're all being screwed by Da Man and how we have to Fight Da Powa and so on; but we have damn few people out there who actually have the knowledge and skills to fix things and they have to fight both those in the AGS who think private firearms ownership is a bad thing and the shouty tablepounders from our side of the table who have made an absolute art form out of sabotaging efforts by "our side" to improve our lot, whether by sinking the FCP, or doing end runs around it to suggest incredibly bad legislation, or by proposing bans to Ministers that nobody was looking for on either side of the table up to that point.

If we took the urge to publicise we see from the tablepounders and pointed that at promoting the sporting achievements we get all the time in our sport; and left the unsexy tedious detailed legislative work to get done by people from all groups who've actually put the time in to learn how this stuff works; well, we'd all be better off.

Boards/Shooting is indeed a useful discussion forum.

I meant something like a sticky, continuing where this thread leaves off (if these proposals get quietly shelved, as they deserve).

I think this thread has served a valuable strategic role in shaping the opposition to the WG proposals and informing interested shooters and their reps: Such a forum would be ruined by giving it a governing function within shooting.

Sparks

The problem with changes is, well, I've quoted it a few times above. They get hijacked in the Dail.

And until we get a restatement of the Firearms Act passed as a new Firearms Act that repeals all previous Acts, giving us the entire law written in one place, talking about changes is pretty much an information-free chat because so few people actually know what the law is in any detail, let alone how to fix it or even what needs fixing in it.

Sparks

Thursday, 9 July 2015

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
154. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the position regarding the review of firearms licensing legislation; if the concerns of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the Sports Coalition have been given detailed consideration; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28065/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

As part of the consultation process for the on-going review of firearms licensing I have given a commitment that I would not make any decisions until I had met the key stakeholders, including the organisations who represent those who use firearms for sporting purposes. I had a useful meeting with the key stakeholders on 29 April 2015. Consideration of the issues involved, including the Sports Coalition (of which the National Association of Regional Games Councils is a member) proposals, is continuing. I intend to conclude consideration of the issues in the near future.

It's so nice to see that some helpful idiot is asking PQs that they know can't reveal any actual information and which are solely designed to make TDs and the Minister think that the only people speaking on behalf of shooters - and therefore the only ones who should be listened to - are the Coalition.

I mean, the view from under the bus is just so much nicer, don't you think?

Cass

When the TD asks if the Minister has given the SC's proposals any consideration do you think he means the SC's proposed banning/capping of certain guns,

Sports Coalition wrote:

In relation to the .22 handguns which are currently licensed, this matter must be resolved by a new S.I. before the 2015 renewal date. The terms of resolution could restrict the licensing of such firearms to .22 calibre short firearms suitable for competition under ISSF rules (which include Olympic competitions), but with a barrel length of NOT LESS than 5 inches, and NOT LONGER than 30cm and with a magazine capacity NOT EXCEEDING 10 rounds

Sports Coalition wrote:

We could accept a temporary cap on licensing centrefire semi-automatic rifles with the exception of classic (old – pre 1950) models pending the outcome of a wider firearms licensing review. In other words, with immediate effect, no new licenses would be issued for this category until a full review is complete.

...................... or the SC's refusal to accept a ban/cap of certain guns? :rolleyes:

Sports Coalition wrote:

We made clear there are no circumstances in which the Sports Coalition will accept a ban or cap in any form, whether through the front door, the back door or any other door, of .22 calibre handguns or any existing firearms for sporting purposes

Hard to get behind a group that cannot even continue it's own party line.

garrettod

There's nothing to stop people having their TDs raise other questions, perhaps directing the Minister away from the Sports Coalition or at least making it very clear that other parts of the sport are not represented by the SC.

Cass

As said many times before. Being the loudest and doing "stuff" just to be seen to be doing something is not the best or only option. Having TDs ask redundant and pointless questions just to be seen, again, to be "fighting the good fight" is useless.

Also based on previous goings on we find ourselves NOT focusing on the proposals and all possible upcoming changes we could be facing, but constantly having to battle "our own" and do damage limitation as a result. From rubbishing their secret proposals to a 30 page thread, and subsequent letter writing campaign, on the cluster f**k that was the Prime Time show (when everyone else had the good sense to step away) and everything in between.

What has happened thus far has happened and cannot be undone, however the reaction of most should be a warning that this route is not the way to go. I mean at some point someone involved has to get the hamster back on his wheel and ask is this really the best use of their time.

CJhaughey

Sneaky reporting in this piece from the Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/illegal-firearm-seizures-increase-as-drug-trade-grows-1.2291398
The secondary headline says Approximately one legally held firearm for every 22 residents of the Republic.
Then a load of stuff about criminality and drugs.
All this tying into the idea that firearms are bad.

bpb101

CJhaughey wrote: »

Sneaky reporting in this piece from the Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/illegal-firearm-seizures-increase-as-drug-trade-grows-1.2291398
The secondary headline says Approximately one legally held firearm for every 22 residents of the Republic.
Then a load of stuff about criminality and drugs.
All this tying into the idea that firearms are bad.

like we know there a problem with drugs in Ireland and gangs, But this article is an example of stupid figures by the gardas

63 stun guns
12 silencers
300 air guns
and cs gas


These may be illegal , But they aren't firearms
The 300 air guns were probable brought in by people who were in England on holidays

Joke journalism thanks to bull**** figures.





lads, havent been on this thread in ages
any legislation updates?

Nekarsulm

No legislation announced yet. Those figures are courtesy of Finian "Cuba libre" McGrath, and are right up there with the Tooth Fairy and Santa in credibility stakes.

Nekarsulm

No legislation announced yet. Those figures are courtesy of Finian "Cuba libre" McGrath, and are right up there with the Tooth Fairy and Santa in credibility stakes.

knockon

Nekarsulm wrote: »

No legislation announced yet. Those figures are courtesy of Finian "Cuba libre" McGrath, and are right up there with the Tooth Fairy and Santa in credibility stakes.

Excellent Nek - brought a bit of laughter this morning.

MacsuibhneR

I see in the UK they are about to start a comprehensive review of their firearms legislation and has begun the consultation process. See Countryside Alliance report at http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/campaigns-shooting/the-law-commission-announces-scoping-review-of-firearms-legislation

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in our nearest neighbour.

Grizzly 45

No doubt that has been said to some of us by members of our beloved AGS when it comes to be inspected or apply for another firearm.
Realllllyyyy???:) An article from the LA Times 3 days ago
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lapd-guns-20150720-story.html

" Cheif Super I just inherited 1200 assorted firearms and two tons of ammo in LA..Can I get them all on my EU firearms passport please?":pac:

Grizzly 45

Intresting...
Just got back my four unrestricted grant notice certs this AM.Within a record time too of 14 days!Two of these were for a pump action and a SA shotgun.No probs,restrictions,questions or delays....Anyone else have a pump or semi liscensed recently with no problems?just curious as to experiances.

hexosan

Is there any basis to the rumors about this been sorted before the next batch of licences in sept. It's all gone radio silent the last few weeks.

lanber man

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Intresting...
Just got back my four unrestricted grant notice certs this AM.Within a record time too of 14 days!Two of these were for a pump action and a SA shotgun.No probs,restrictions,questions or delays....Anyone else have a pump or semi liscensed recently with no problems?just curious as to experiances.

Yeah I licenced a sa for the first time a couple of months ago. No hassle or anything

IrishTarget

Any updates from the sports collation?

Sparks

There's been no update from the Minister's office, it's still under consideration with her (as several PQs from the SC have been told in the last few months).

Honestly, between the Irish water protests, the Fennelly report, the half-dozen humanitarian disasters ranging from thousands drowning while fleeing syria in front of the Irish navy right through to the equivalent to an entire small town's population sleeping rough in the capital, not to mention the incoming general election, I'd be surprised if it was even on the first few pages of the Minister's to-do list. And that's a good thing for us - the proposals were not a good idea and them just quietly stopping is in everyone's best interests (and why the SC won't just let the damn thing die quietly is anyone's guess, anyone with any sense would just be leaving that sleeping dog lie).

After the next election we can think about fixing the problems in the Act in a better way, but trying to do it right now would turn into a three-ring circus once publicity-seeking TDs discovered they had something they could throw rocks at, and damn few TDs would actually defend it, bar the other publicity-seeking TDs who think that any column inches are good column inches and who'd say the most outlandish things they could think of in support of the Bill, just to shock-jock themselves into the media. We'd be the shield from all the really awkward questions being raised by the other problems right now.

End result of that scenario is us screwed over by more bad law and all appetite to go in and fix the existing problems will be gone for the next few years and that means we'd eat up even more volunteer manhours to get back to where we are now.

bpb101

Sparks wrote: »

There's been no update from the Minister's office, it's still under consideration with her (as several PQs from the SC have been told in the last few months).

Honestly, between the Irish water protests, the Fennelly report, the half-dozen humanitarian disasters ranging from thousands drowning while fleeing syria in front of the Irish navy right through to the equivalent to an entire small town's population sleeping rough in the capital, not to mention the incoming general election, I'd be surprised if it was even on the first few pages of the Minister's to-do list. And that's a good thing for us - the proposals were not a good idea and them just quietly stopping is in everyone's best interests (and why the SC won't just let the damn thing die quietly is anyone's guess, anyone with any sense would just be leaving that sleeping dog lie).

After the next election we can think about fixing the problems in the Act in a better way, but trying to do it right now would turn into a three-ring circus once publicity-seeking TDs discovered they had something they could throw rocks at, and damn few TDs would actually defend it, bar the other publicity-seeking TDs who think that any column inches are good column inches and who'd say the most outlandish things they could think of in support of the Bill, just to shock-jock themselves into the media. We'd be the shield from all the really awkward questions being raised by the other problems right now.

End result of that scenario is us screwed over by more bad law and all appetite to go in and fix the existing problems will be gone for the next few years and that means we'd eat up even more volunteer manhours to get back to where we are now.

The Government are on "dont piss of people mode" until the next election. New proposal on anything regardless of what they would be (even good ones) will piss off somebody and politicians see that as a vote.
IW is pissing off a load of people. But mostly in towns/citys. Not so much the country. The majority of firearms owners are farmers. The only ones supporting the government. They can afford any changes.

No news is good news imo.

richiedel123

Was talking to a lad the other day involved in the sports coalition and he said keep an ear out for an announcement this Friday. Our beloved minister will be making 1 got to do with this. It could be ****e talk but he seemed to know what he was talking about