Euro 2016: Scotland v Republic of Ireland - 7:45 KO 14/11

keeponhurling

I know it was a criticism leveled at MON during his Celtic years but he doesn't really like making subs.

Last night I was amazed Long and Hendrick stayed on so long.
I thought he was only waiting until half time so as not to embarrass Hendrick.

Also given that Long's touch was so badly off , and that it was surely a marginal decision that he started ahead of Keane anyways, surprised a sub wasn't made earlier

keeponhurling

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I would not give O Neill the chance to turn this around.

It has turned out to be a shocking appointment.

Would you really , or are you just venting ?
I do agree performances and tactics haven't been great.

Besides the financial implications, I think we need to give any manager at least one full campaign

In any case it's not like We're gonna get Guardiola or Mourinho's to replace him

keeponhurling

Of the past 4 Irish managers, Kerr, Trap and MON are all criticised for being too conservative.

The other one, Stan, got really awful results.
He liked to pick your Andy Reid's, but ultimately the results were awful.

Not sure if there's a message in there

Dempsey

keeponhurling wrote: »

Of the past 4 Irish managers, Kerr, Trap and MON are all criticised for being too conservative.

The other one, Stan, got really awful results.
He liked to pick your Andy Reid's, but ultimately the results were awful.

Not sure if there's a message in there

I dont consider 5 and 10 yard passes too much to ask

Citing Stan's reign as justification for hoofball is laughable

ColeTrain

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I have seen some pile of **** in my time but what Ireland produced last night was something beyond rubbish.

Martin O Neill is a clown full stop. Maybe in same level as Stan for me except worse to watch. Even with the fortunate luck in Georgia and Germany we still are in a tough situation now.

O Neill is a goofball manager who has a Plan A and a Plan A only.

It could have been 3-0 to Scotland. O Neill somehow managed to make Scotland look good.

The amount of times the ball bypassed midfield would be embarrassment to San Marino.

I would not give O Neill the chance to turn this around.

It has turned out to be a shocking appointment.

When you see Faore Islands and North going to places like Greece and playing some football and then watch the embarresment and gutless performance like last night there is something obvious wrong.

That's a bit OTT.

Last night wasn't great to look at it but it wasn't nearly as bad as you're making out. We could have scored a few ourselves and the defense handled Scotland reasonably well.

At least let O'Neill finish the campaign before calling for him to be sacked.

keeponhurling

We don't have good midfielders !

No manager tells players to mess up simple passes.
FFS, one of our management team is Roy Keane, master of smart midfield play. Roy and MON are not blind.

Scotland had Darren Fletcher in the bench.
Gibbo , Hendrick or Quinn would struggle to make the Scotland squad.
That's what we're dealing with.

Dempsey

keeponhurling wrote: »

We don't have good midfielders !

No manager tells players to mess up simple passes.
FFS, one of our management team is Roy Keane, master of smart midfield play. Roy and MON are not blind.

Scotland had Darren Fletcher in the bench.
Gibbo , Hendrick or Quinn would struggle to make the Scotland squad.
That's what we're dealing with.

The difference is that Strachan is capable of gearing his tactics around the players at his disposal, MON just goes for types for positions to enforce his brand of football.

MON doesnt have the CM's for his type of football. We have players capable of more than this

TimRiggins

keeponhurling wrote: »

We don't have good midfielders !

No manager tells players to mess up simple passes.
FFS, one of our management team is Roy Keane, master of smart midfield play. Roy and MON are not blind.

Scotland had Darren Fletcher in the bench.
Gibbo , Hendrick or Quinn would struggle to make the Scotland squad.
That's what we're dealing with.

Then we need to play with 3 in the middle.

Last night looked more like a 4-4-2 to me anyway, don't know what people were on about. Walters was up with Long the whole time. I've been impressed with Robertson for Scotland from seeing him play with Hull, and the Scots used Robertson in the same way we should have used Coleman. Yes we defended well for long spells but could you ever really see us scoring?

Stephen Quinn has been good for Hull the few times I've seen him play this season, Would have been a far better option then McClean.

If we had Quinn - Gibson - Hendrick in the middle we would have atleast had a platform, structure going forward while maintaining our shape.

McGeady clearly let the whole thing affect him. Tried far to hard the whole night. Couldn't even clear the ball from his box without doing skill to look good.

Keith Ward was awful, and James McClean wasn't much better. If we had our attack on getting it into the middle, playing it out wide for McGeady for him to either take on Robertson with Coleman on the overlap we could have at least nicked a goal.

If it wasn't for two last minute goals we'd be playing catch up already.

But, on the flipside, we've already went to Germany, Scotland and Georiga, so there is lots of time to improve, and hopefully play with a bit more belief.

In saying all that, fair play to Scotland. I actually think they're a decent side. Good goalkeeper (Marshall was the best goalkeeper in the PL for me last season, week after week made great saves), a midfield that will protect, has a bit of bite in it and can pass the ball and the front four are dangerous.

This group is still wide open, but we need a big improvement before the Poland game next year.

LuckyLloyd

keeponhurling wrote: »

Of the past 4 Irish managers, Kerr, Trap and MON are all criticised for being too conservative.

The other one, Stan, got really awful results.
He liked to pick your Andy Reid's, but ultimately the results were awful.

Not sure if there's a message in there

keeponhurling wrote: »

We don't have good midfielders !

No manager tells players to mess up simple passes.
FFS, one of our management team is Roy Keane, master of smart midfield play. Roy and MON are not blind.

Scotland had Darren Fletcher in the bench.
Gibbo , Hendrick or Quinn would struggle to make the Scotland squad.
That's what we're dealing with.

You don't get you see? All that needs to happen for us to become good enough to outplay the Scots on a night like last night is the coach to tell them to pass it. That's it, say 'we're going to pass and move' and it will be done and it will be beautiful.

Forget about the fact that there was no space available last night and midfielders were provided no time on the ball. Forget about the fact that Walters / McClean / Long / Ward / Keogh / O'Shea / Forde aren't technically adept and aren't making a living from short passing football.

Nah, just say 'we'll pass it' and so we'll pass it. Simple!!

And then if all else fails, remember that lots on here would rather we had lost 3 - 1 with us knocking it about and getting ripped to shreds - because at least the game would have been more entertaining.

Yeah, grand craic.

Dempsey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You don't get you see? All that needs to happen for us to become good enough to outplay the Scots on a night like last night is the coach to tell them to pass it. That's it, say 'we're going to pass and move' and it will be done and it will be beautiful.

Forget about the fact that there was no space available last night and midfielders were provided no time on the ball. Forget about the fact that Walters / McClean / Long / Ward / Keogh / O'Shea / Forde aren't technically adept and aren't making a living from short passing football.

Nah, just say 'we'll pass it' and so we'll pass it. Simple!!

And then if all else fails, remember that lots on here would rather we had lost 3 - 1 with us knocking it about and getting ripped to shreds - because at least the game would have been more entertaining.

Yeah, grand craic.

We were playing Scotland not Spain in their pomp.

Nobody is asking for tiki taka but not being able to mix it up and only have hoofball as an option makes your play one dimensional, predictable and easy to setup defensively against.

Most of the players that played well for Scotland last night were developed in the SPL and were capable of passing the ball. But we are suppose to believe that our players, mostly trained by Championship or EPL clubs are not capable? Utter rubbish

LuckyLloyd

Dempsey wrote: »

We were playing Scotland not Spain in their pomp.

Nobody is asking for tiki taka but not being able to mix it up and only have hoofball as an option makes your play one dimensional, predictable and easy to setup defensively against.

Most of the players that played well for Scotland last night were developed in the SPL and were capable of passing the ball. But we are suppose to believe that our players, mostly trained by Championship or EPL clubs are not capable? Utter rubbish

Scotland didn't pass the ball nearly as much as was made out last night tbh. Both sides were similar, they just have a superior balance of players than we have at the moment and the best player on the field.

We lost a narrow 1 - 0 game. All it took was for McGeady's flash shot to bounce over Marshall's hand and we'd be sitting top of the group.

O'Neillball is maximizing what we have and giving us a chance. Staunton had a much better collection of players (Given / Dunne / Duff / Keane in their prime for starters) and did a lot of things that get called for from Ireland on here. And we were a shambles. It's a point that retains some merit for sure.

Dempsey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Scotland didn't pass the ball nearly as much as was made out last night tbh. Both sides were similar, they just have a superior balance of players than we have at the moment and the best player on the field.

We lost a narrow 1 - 0 game. All it took was for McGeady's flash shot to bounce over Marshall's hand and we'd be sitting top of the group.

O'Neillball is maximizing what we have and giving us a chance. Staunton had a much better collection of players (Given / Dunne / Duff / Keane in their prime for starters) and did a lot of things that get called for from Ireland on here. And we were a shambles. It's a point that retains some merit for sure.

That was Traps mantra, why did we want rid of him again??

Staunton didnt know his arse from his elbow, it didnt matter what philosophy he had, he didnt have the skillset to implement it. Its a lazy excuse to cite his failures as reason to stick with hoofball managers

TimRiggins

Dempsey wrote: »

That was Traps mantra, why did we want rid of him again??

Staunton didnt know his arse from his elbow, it didnt matter what philosophy he had, he didnt have the skillset to implement it. Its a lazy excuse to cite his failures as reason to stick with hoofball managers

Trapatoni has put our international team back lightyears in regards to playing a decent passing brand of football.

Are people really turning on O Neill already? Goes to show the mentality of some of the fanbase.

Still in with a great shout of qualifying. 4 out of the next 5 games are at home afaik.

7 points from those opening games is probably as much as I'd expected tbh

Chrissybhoy

Dempsey wrote: »

The difference is that Strachan is capable of gearing his tactics around the players at his disposal, MON just goes for types for positions to enforce his brand of football.

MON doesnt have the CM's for his type of football. We have players capable of more than this

I never once saw Gibson dictate a game the fella just hasn't got it. Even in this squad he's out of his depth

LuckyLloyd

Dempsey wrote: »

That was Traps mantra, why did we want rid of him again??

Staunton didnt know his arse from his elbow, it didnt matter what philosophy he had, he didnt have the skillset to implement it. Its a lazy excuse to cite his failures as reason to stick with hoofball managers

I reckon you wanted rid of him because you are part of a deluded chunk of our fanbase who think our team is somehow being constrained or held back from their 'true' potential.

I think Trapp did well given our squad and O'Neill hasn't done okay in the competitive games to date. The friendlies were abysmal though, really terrible - and in same we attempted to get it down and pass it like ye are calling for. We're not capable of it I'm afraid!!

Paleface

Ireland have poor players in key positions. There is no point saying we have good players like Coleman, McGeady, McCarthy etc...

There is no real quality in CB, CM or CF.

And its not MON or Trap or any other managers fault. Its the structure of soccer in this country. Its needs a complete overhaul with focus on being competitive at underage levels with a view to a long term goal.

Otherwise its just papering over huge cracks that come to the fore in games like last night!

MD1990

When have Ireland ever played passing football? We have always played hoofball & its ingrained in our football culture. The FAI need to try & encourage more Irish people to get into top level coaching to help improve underage.

Dempsey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I reckon you wanted rid of him because you are part of a deluded chunk of our fanbase who think our team is somehow being constrained or held back from their 'true' potential.

I think Trapp did well given our squad and O'Neill hasn't done okay in the competitive games to date. The friendlies were abysmal though, really terrible - and in same we attempted to get it down and pass it like ye are calling for. We're not capable of it I'm afraid!!

I wanted rid of him because he wasnt getting the results. Maybe you should do a search before putting your foot in your mouth. MON is a continuation of Traps philosophy and a few more performances and results like that will mean that he wont last half the time Trap did.

We aren't capable at the moment because no manager in the last decade has back the players to play it that way or had the skillset to implement anything else

Pro. F

keeponhurling wrote: »

Of the past 4 Irish managers, Kerr, Trap and MON are all criticised for being too conservative.

The other one, Stan, got really awful results.
He liked to pick your Andy Reid's, but ultimately the results were awful.

Not sure if there's a message in there

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Staunton had a much better collection of players (Given / Dunne / Duff / Keane in their prime for starters) and did a lot of things that get called for from Ireland on here. And we were a shambles. It's a point that retains some merit for sure.

That is a breathtakingly stupid argument. The reason Stan failed was because he was a rubbish manager. If he had any sort managerial pedigree to speak of you could start to make a case that his tenure proves something more general about football. But instead you are using one of the worst managers any of us has ever seen to form your opinions on what does and doesn't work in football.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

That is a breathtakingly stupid argument. The reason Stan failed was because he was a rubbish manager. If he had any sort managerial pedigree to speak of you could start to make a case that his tenure proves something more general about football. But instead you are using one of the worst managers any of us has ever seen to form your opinions on what does and doesn't work in football.

Fair enough, I'll concede that one.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You don't get you see? All that needs to happen for us to become good enough to outplay the Scots on a night like last night is the coach to tell them to pass it. That's it, say 'we're going to pass and move' and it will be done and it will be beautiful.

Forget about the fact that there was no space available last night and midfielders were provided no time on the ball. Forget about the fact that Walters / McClean / Long / Ward / Keogh / O'Shea / Forde aren't technically adept and aren't making a living from short passing football.

Nah, just say 'we'll pass it' and so we'll pass it. Simple!!

There's more to management than just words. There are also the training sessions and team selections. The psychological aspect of what the manager encourages the players to do is important too. Overall there's plenty of opportunity for an international manager to effect constructive football with the quality of players we have available to us.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And then if all else fails, remember that lots on here would rather we had lost 3 - 1 with us knocking it about and getting ripped to shreds - because at least the game would have been more entertaining.

Yeah, grand craic.

Straw man.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The friendlies were abysmal though, really terrible - and in same we attempted to get it down and pass it like ye are calling for. We're not capable of it I'm afraid!!

Wins over Latvia and Oman; draws with Poland, Italy and Costa Rica; narrow losses to Serbia and Turkey and a tonking by Portugal. Those results really aren't as poor as you are portraying them. And being friendlies, they are also just not as informative. For example, we regularly made six subs in those games.

RoyalCelt

fryup wrote: »

what a bizarre link

canvas prints?? who the hell wants a canvas print of a scuffle at a football match??

When i was looking at them, they had "Perfect gift for someone you know" written beside them.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

There's more to management than just words. There are also the training sessions and team selections. The psychological aspect of what the manager encourages the players to do is important too. Overall there's plenty of opportunity for an international manager to effect constructive football with the quality of players we have available to us.

Not imo with the current squad, but that's obviously where we disagree.

Wins over Latvia and Oman; draws with Poland, Italy and Costa Rica; narrow losses to Serbia and Turkey and a tonking by Portugal. Those results really aren't as poor as you are portraying them. And being friendlies, they are also just not as informative. For example, we regularly made six subs in those games.

We looked dreadful for a lot of it and the losses were bad. Again though, we are diametrically opposed on this topic in general.

gosplan

There are a considerable amount of people that will never be happy unless Ireland are top or second in their qualifying group and getting good results all round.

I'd wager that most of these are people who are used to supporting successful 'big' British teams.

Managers are not miracle workers.

Ireland have the 3rd or 4th best group of players in this group and will finish either 3rd or 4th.

It's that simple and no-one can really change that.

gosplan

gosplan wrote: »

There are a considerable amount of people that will never be happy unless Ireland are top or second in their qualifying group and getting good results all round.

I'd wager that most of these are people who are used to supporting successful 'big' British teams.

Managers are not miracle workers.

Ireland have the 3rd or 4th best group of players in this group and will finish either 3rd or 4th.

It's that simple and no-one can really change that.

I know a lot of people who follow big English clubs and are forever whinging about how poor the Irish team is, we don't have the standards they see at ManU and so on.

I think it's a bit of a cop out myself. Sure, Germany will be the dominant team. But not sure why we should be in awe of Poland or Scotland. And sure, we've had better players before. But we just gotta get on with it. Countries like Bosnia and Greece don't seem to spend forever wringing their hands and bemoaning the lack of quality. We were playing a Scottish side that was at our level, they were at home, they were a little better, they won.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Not imo with the current squad, but that's obviously where we disagree.

We looked dreadful for a lot of it and the losses were bad. Again though, we are diametrically opposed on this topic in general.

Our views on the topic in general are indeed diametrically opposed, but I'm surprised that you are judging those friendly games on the performance when you have so often said that the result is all that matters.

Al Capwned

Apologies if this was mentioned already but I haven't been on this thread..

Had anyone criticised our goalkeeper for his poor starting positions at all. A couple of times he could have been collecting balls at or near the 18 yard line but was starting too deep and put our Centre backs especially in the position of having to deal with a ball facing their own goals.

Also from the free kick that led to the corner that they scored from. If he is positive and aggressive and comes and catches or punches that ball clear we don't concede the corner. Iirc Walters headed out about on the 6 yard line.

I was screaming at him to come and catch it but I seemed to be the only one on my company (apart from one other fella, another keeper as it happens) that had a problem with it.

Will I Amnt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know a lot of people who follow big English clubs and are forever whinging about how poor the Irish team is, we don't have the standards they see at ManU and so on

A lot of the people you know are idiots so... I would find it hard to believe that you could know even a few people that would think like that.
Ireland should be able to go to Scotland and play football and be competitive, simple as that. I don't think anybody could argue playing that type of game away to Germany.

LuckyLloyd

Ireland were competitive on Friday. The game was close, they narrowly shaded it.

It's as if we were hammered listening to some people.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ireland were competitive on Friday. The game was close, they narrowly shaded it.

It's as if we were hammered listening to some people.

If you are referring to my comment, I was saying Ireland should be able to play football (as in actual football not hoofball) and be competitive against the likes of Scotland. There is absolutely no need to resort to the tactics of Friday night.

yohan the great

Anyone here getting a bit worried about James McCarthy's commitment to Ireland? Virtually ever present for Everton this year if i'm not mistaken but has missed three Ireland internationals. Mon also said in the Indo today that he probably would have played Friday if it was a club match

LuckyLloyd

yohan the great wrote: »

Anyone here getting a bit worried about James McCarthy's commitment to Ireland? Virtually ever present for Everton this year if i'm not mistaken but has missed three Ireland internationals. Mon also said in the Indo today that he probably would have played Friday if it was a club match

I'm not worried in so far as I'm fairly certain he isn't pushed about it. Whatever, I'm happy to have the likes of Whelan in there instead when the lessor player values it far more.

Aenaes

He plays when he's fit, can't ask much more than that.

Barry was stretchered off in Everton's last game and is set to miss the next few weeks. That was quite possibly at the back of McCarthy's mind and perhaps under a bit of pressure from Martinez to protect his hamstring so Everton's midfield isn't shattered for the Christmas run-in.

Iused2likebusts

Aenaes wrote: »

He plays when he's fit, can't ask much more than that.

Barry was stretchered off in Everton's last game and is set to miss the next few weeks. That was quite possibly at the back of McCarthy's mind and perhaps under a bit of pressure from Martinez to protect his hamstring so Everton's midfield isn't shattered for the Christmas run-in.

Which is of no use to Ireland and is not the attitude the majority of our players have.

Aenaes

Of course it's of use. When fit, he's our best central midfielder so it's in the team's interest to have him playing.

What would have been the point risking him against Scotland maybe to have him come off à la Diego Costa in the Champions League Final?

Iused2likebusts

Aenaes wrote: »

Of course it's of use. When fit, he's our best central midfielder so it's in the team's interest to have him playing.

What would have been the point risking him against Scotland maybe to have him come off à la Diego Costa in the Champions League Final?

Just a hunch but I feel he isn't overly bothered with playing for Ireland and values his club career a lot more than the majority of our players do.

yohan the great

Aenaes wrote: »

He plays when he's fit, can't ask much more than that.

Barry was stretchered off in Everton's last game and is set to miss the next few weeks. That was quite possibly at the back of McCarthy's mind and perhaps under a bit of pressure from Martinez to protect his hamstring so Everton's midfield isn't shattered for the Christmas run-in.

I can't imagine Robbie Keane or Richard Dunne missing an extremely important Ireland game because their club manager wants them to

LuckyLloyd

Aenaes wrote: »

He plays when he's fit, can't ask much more than that.

Barry was stretchered off in Everton's last game and is set to miss the next few weeks. That was quite possibly at the back of McCarthy's mind and perhaps under a bit of pressure from Martinez to protect his hamstring so Everton's midfield isn't shattered for the Christmas run-in.

Aenaes wrote: »

Of course it's of use. When fit, he's our best central midfielder so it's in the team's interest to have him playing.

What would have been the point risking him against Scotland maybe to have him come off à la Diego Costa in the Champions League Final?

Players who value their club career over playing for Ireland can go **** themselves imo, no matter how good they are. I wish he would just end the charade and publicly declare himself unavailable for selection. I'm happy to get behind the players who make playing for Ireland a priority and offer 100% to the cause. We have a good group in that respect, McCarthy stands out like a sore thumb tbh.

Dempsey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Players who value their club career over playing for Ireland can go **** themselves imo, no matter how good they are. I wish he would just end the charade and publicly declare himself unavailable for selection. I'm happy to get behind the players who make playing for Ireland a priority and offer 100% to the cause. We have a good group in that respect, McCarthy stands out like a sore thumb tbh.

I wholeheartedly agree. International football requires commitment first and foremost. A player with doubts in his mind is a huge liability regardless of skill level

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ireland were competitive on Friday. The game was close, they narrowly shaded it.

It's as if we were hammered listening to some people.

Scotland were nothing special, but they played a lot better than we did. The score was close in the end, but over the longer run better performances lead to better results, so it's something worth caring about.

MisterAnarchy

Paleface wrote: »

Its needs a complete overhaul with focus on being competitive at underage levels with a view to a long term goal.

I'm not sure it needs to be more competitive at underage levels as that is probably the reason the standard of football is so low in this country.

Its all about winning ,and physicality at underage level.
Big ,strong lads getting picked to play while smaller more skillful players get left out.
Too much direct ,long ball play where kids are told to "get rid of it".

No kids under 12 or even 13 should be playing 11 a side soccer on full size pitches in full size goals .

Thankfully things are changing but its a very slow process.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I'm not sure it needs to be more competitive at underage levels as that is probably the reason the standard of football is so low in this country.

Its all about winning ,and physicality at underage level.
Big ,strong lads getting picked to play while smaller more skillful players get left out.
Too much direct ,long ball play where kids are told to "get rid of it".

No kids under 12 or even 13 should be playing 11 a side soccer on full size pitches in full size goals .

Thankfully things are changing but its a very slow process.

Totally agree with your points about smaller parks, goals and no 11 a side at young ages. But whatever you do you will never make it less competitive as youngsters are naturally that way.

Nalz

Pro. F wrote: »

Scotland were nothing special, but they played a lot better than we did. The score was close in the end, but over the longer run better performances lead to better results, so it's something worth caring about.

Agreed. Scotland are at best a below average team who didn't play really well yet deserved their victory without question.

We're miles off where we need to be imo - how we get there is a different story.

legendary.xix

MD1990 wrote: »

When have Ireland ever played passing football? We have always played hoofball & its ingrained in our football culture. The FAI need to try & encourage more Irish people to get into top level coaching to help improve underage.

The McCarthy era wasn't about hoofball.

smileyj1987

legendary.xix wrote: »

The McCarthy era wasn't about hoofball.

That was an Era of Irish football that was great to watch . You could watch that Ireland team play all day .

The_Kew_Tour

John Aldridge goal against Mexico in 1994 was the goal with most passes in 94 world cup (27 if not mistaken).

We were not all hoof ball under Jack all the time like some think.

Under Mick we played nice brand of football just tactically naive at times.

Chrissybhoy

smileyj1987 wrote: »

That was an Era of Irish football that was great to watch . You could watch that Ireland team play all day .

A way better crop of players tho

TimRiggins

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

A way better crop of players tho

We could have went very very far in that group, Had the whole Saipan brigade never happened the sky was the limit. Handy route to the final.

Skylinehead

TimRiggins wrote: »

We could have went very very far in that group, Had the whole Saipan brigade never happened the sky was the limit. Handy route to the final.

We were by far the better team against Spain as it was, had that gone differently....