Do you like being in the European Union?

Foxhound38

Would be interested in the AH consensus here - beyond the current situation, is the idea of being tied to the rest of Europe in the way that we are (and potentially in an "ever closer Union", possibly all the way to a fully federalized superstate in the future) something you support? Should we be closer to London than Berlin in our attitude towards the European Union?

Personally, I am a eurofederalist - not something I think will happen any time soon, possibly not even in my lifetime, but I think it is an ideal worth striving for and I believe such an situation would be to the benefit of the citizens of Europe. With that said, I understand that such an ideal would be abhorrant to some other people for a variety of reasons.

The_Valeyard

I was a Eurofederalist in my late teens, then I grew up :P


I would be in favour of a loose European confederation but not a Euro Super-State, that would inevitably be filled with Bureaucracy and end up like a mini USA.

Micky Dolenz

A few years back I was at a tour of Flanders and heard an Irish ambassador speak. While at one of the many grave yards he said something like, While the EU may not be perfect, this was the alternative.

Kinda hit home.

Foxhound38

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I was a Eurofederalist in my late teens, then I grew up :P


I would be in favour of a loose European confederation but not a Euro Super-State, that would inevitably be filled with Bureaucracy and end up like a mini USA.

So you would be in favour of something more centralized and less ad-hoc than the current setup but stops short of statehood?

Duckworth_Luas

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Would be interested in the AH consensus here

Why on earth would you be interested in that?

Don Kedick

I'm a Republican.

HamsterFace

Absolutely am. Can anyone picture Europe at war again? Economic and social interdependence brings peace.

The same thing that they're trying to achieve up north.

Plus the Travel is handy and for businesses it's a God send, a huge market were barriers to trade are illegal.

Has it's faults but still relatively young.

Arsemageddon

Would have had a more positive opinion about the EU until the bailout.

The Euro was almost exclusively for the benefit of the French and Germans. They break the rules nothing happens, we or any other small country break the rules we get a kicking.

Equal partners my arse.

Arsemageddon

HamsterFace wrote: »

Absolutely am. Can anyone picture Europe at war again? Economic and social interdependence brings peace.

The same thing that they're trying to achieve up north.

Plus the Travel is handy and for businesses it's a God send, a huge market were barriers to trade are illegal.

Has it's faults but still relatively young.

This line is constantly trotted out about the EU. Peace in Europe from 1945-1989 had a lot to more to do with the US stationing huge amounts of troops in Europe and the fact that another major European war would probably have led to a nuclear holocaust.

I don't think the Soviets were all that scared of western Europe to be honest with you.

Shenshen

I'm very happy indeed to be in the European Union.

I do feel it has a democracy-deficit, though. And I mean both on the side of its governing institutions and its public.
The processes need to be made more transparent and the people need to be able to make more of an impact. And the people themselves need to show a little more interest and actually get involved more.

_Kaiser_

No, not at all.

The EU as currently structured doesn't work. It's effectively run for the benefit of Germany and France and policies are decided accordingly. Any benefits to the other states (particularly smaller ones like ourselves) is purely coincidental. It's also partly why the economy overheated like it did 10 years ago, because those policies suited the German economy at the time.

We talk about how "unaccountable" FG/LAB are and that's very true, but the EU is even more so. I'd wager about 90% of Irish people have little to no clue about how the EU (supposedly) runs, who their MEPs are, or how to properly engage with it - but that's also because little to no effort is made by the EU leadership to engage with the people - instead it's done at a inter-government/agency level for the most part.

The EU has increasingly been run as an economy rather than a grouping of countries and citizens with common goals and interests, and those citizens have increasingly been viewed and treated as expendable assets in this economy rather than people and an electorate.

This is compounded by virtually no effort to integrate the member states socially or culturally so each State leader looks out for their own domestic interests meaning that nothing gets done in any kind of efficient manner - which in turn has resulted in the economic crisis being dragged out far longer than it could have been.

There's also the bad taste left by referendums being re-run because we didn't vote the "right" way the first time, and the further diminishing of our influence as a State as well. Then there's the infamous Tricet letter blackmailing us into a "Bailout" that has crippled this country.

In short, the EU doesn't work as a political entity in my opinion. Too many differing views and nationalist interests at play and nothing to suggest this is going to change as it limps from one crisis to another.

As the former EEC it worked, and worked pretty well, but once they got political notions it all started to fall apart IMO

smoking_kills

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A few years back I was at a tour of Flanders and heard an Irish ambassador speak. While at one of the many grave yards he said something like, While the EU may not be perfect, this was the alternative.

Kinda hit home.

What, so if we don't have the EU we are going to knock 7 shades out of each other?

Laois_Man

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

While the EU may not be perfect

The system is 5hite and they're not even interested in improving it because it's jobs for the boys. I don't remember ever casting a ballot paper with the names of Herman Van Rompuy, Martin Schulz or Jean-Claude Juncker on it. Where's the democracy?

We're seriously snookered wit hit though - So we have to stay in it. But it's still 5hite!

WesternZulu

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I don't think the Soviets were all that scared of western Europe to be honest with you.

They'd be a got less scared if Western Europe was fragmented instead of in some sort of collective union.

_Kaiser_

WesternZulu wrote: »

They'd be a got less scared if Western Europe was fragmented instead of in some sort of collective union.

Western Europe isn't and was never the real threat to the Soviets/Russia. It was and is the USA and NATO (which predates the EU as well incidentally)

The_Valeyard

Foxhound38 wrote: »

So you would be in favour of something more centralized and less ad-hoc than the current setup but stops short of statehood?

Yes & no,

the current set up is tolerable.

Would prefer more powers away from Brussels,

Certainly do not want a single European State.

We are a tiny nation surrounded by bigger players, do not want to get swallowed up into one of them.

HamsterFace

Arsemageddon wrote: »

This line is constantly trotted out about the EU. Peace in Europe from 1945-1989 had a lot to more to do with the US stationing huge amounts of troops in Europe and the fact that another major European war would probably have led to a nuclear holocaust.

I don't think the Soviets were all that scared of western Europe to be honest with you.

But I'm talking about peace between the member states, not suggesting the EU can control external aggression

KomradeBishop

Many aspects of the EU are worth keeping, but the Euro is one of the worst things to happen to Europe, since WWII, as it is the primary thing locking us in economic crisis (without it, countries would have had far better policy options to get out of crisis - and the EU is just too dysfunctional, to agree to undertake any of those policies at a European level).

It threatens to either unravel the EU, or cause us to remain in economic stagnation for decades - the longer that goes on, the better an EU breakup will look.

HalloweenJack

Yep, freedom of movement, encouragement of more liberal social laws.

It's far from perfect, the euro being one problem of many, but I'd still rather we were in than out.

Arsemageddon

HamsterFace wrote: »

But I'm talking about peace between the member states, not suggesting the EU can control external aggression

The EU's role as a peace-keeper between member states is no longer relevant. Most of the EU's member states are also members of NATO, as such they are military allies.

The EU did nothing when acts of genocide were being perpetrated on it's borders when Yugoslavia collapsed. As a matter of fact the actions of individual member states (especially Germany) helped intensify the conflict.

The EU also played a significant role in destabilising Ukraine then walked away when the Russians got involved because they refused to impose meaningful sanctions on Russia i.e. sanctions on Russian gas and oil exports.

The EU is used as a flag of convenience by the larger members when they wish to pursue their own foreign affairs agendas and is completely ignored when it gets in their way.

The line about the EU being a peace-keeper between members is now just a smokescreen used whenever some Europhile needs to deflect a trick question (yes Lucinda Creighton, I do mean you!)

Grayson

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Would have had a more positive opinion about the EU until the bailout.

The Euro was almost exclusively for the benefit of the French and Germans. They break the rules nothing happens, we or any other small country break the rules we get a kicking.

Equal partners my arse.

We got the bailout. If we weren't in the EU we'd have to default or if we were lucky get IMF money. Considering the conditions that were attached to other previous bailouts (like privatise everything) we got off lucky.

diomed

Yes, only because the EU and China can look down on the USA.

Arsemageddon

Grayson wrote: »

We got the bailout. If we weren't in the EU we'd have to default or if we were lucky get IMF money. Considering the conditions that were attached to other previous bailouts (like privatise everything) we got off lucky.

We were not given a bailout, we were forced to accept a bailout in order protect the Euro. We certainly mismanaged our economy, but it is completely unjust that the private debt of European banks has been imposed on the Irish tax payer.

Have you actually read a newspaper in the last few years?

BoJack Horseman

If its terrible, why has no country ever left?
While others would love to join?

SEPT 23 1989

Germany is as usual the problem in Europe

BoJack Horseman

Arsemageddon wrote: »

We were not given a bailout, we were forced to accept a bailout in order protect the Euro. We certainly mismanaged our economy, but it is completely unjust that the private debt of European banks has been imposed on the Irish tax payer.

Have you actually read a newspaper in the last few years?

Have a read of this excellent post from a contributor in the politics forum...... In fact everyone should read it.

Something everyone should read tbh when spouting about the troika bailout

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92923412&postcount=25

Arsemageddon

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If its terrible, why has no country ever left?
While others would love to join?

Of course it has plenty of positive aspects, my problem with the EU is that it is has become pretty clear over the last 10-15 years that it is certainly not a club of equals and there is no meaningful debate on the direction it is heading.

When France and the Netherlands rejected the EU constitution in referenda we got pretty much the same thing back again in the form of the Lisbon Treaty without those pesky EU citizens getting to vote on it (other than us in Ireland). When we voted against Lisbon we got a clip around the ear and an opportunity to reconsider.

Despite all the high-fallutin' rhetoric the EU has become an outrageously undemocratic body.

Grayson

Arsemageddon wrote: »

We were not given a bailout, we were forced to accept a bailout in order protect the Euro. We certainly mismanaged our economy, but it is completely unjust that the private debt of European banks has been imposed on the Irish tax payer.

Have you actually read a newspaper in the last few years?

Have you seen the conditions that were attached to other bailouts or do they not mention that the Indo?

Nearly everything that went wrong with the banks was our fault. The banks had little regulation. The banks were run by idiots who didn't care for the future. We guaranteed the banks security (the rest of the EU really hated that one at the time).
There was an option of completely abandoning the euro and defaulting but that would have been way worse.

Grayson

Arsemageddon wrote: »

When France and the Netherlands rejected the EU constitution in referenda we got pretty much the same thing back again in the form of the Lisbon Treaty without those pesky EU citizens getting to vote on it (other than us in Ireland). When we voted against Lisbon we got a clip around the ear and an opportunity to reconsider.

Despite all the high-fallutin' rhetoric the EU has become an outrageously undemocratic body.

exit polls in Ireland showed the 60% of the people who voted didn't actually understand whet the Lisbon treaty was and that's why they voted no.

They voted yes the second time because they knew what it was at that stage.

Or are you actually saying that all those voters changed their minds because a foreign leader didn't approve of us. Do you actually think that little of people?

catallus

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If its terrible, why has no country ever left?
While others would love to join?

Indeed. The question of disliking the EU is one which illustrates the hubris of those who benefit from it.

As a political entity it is the epitome of human development. Only the most backward looking antediluvian person could find the idea bad.

That said, we should be careful that it isn't used as a tool of the power-mongers to curtail freedom.

RobYourBuilder

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If its terrible, why has no country ever left?

Greenland left.

BoJack Horseman

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Greenland left.

OK.....
Any actual real sovereign nation though?

Arsemageddon

Grayson wrote: »

Have you seen the conditions that were attached to other bailouts or do they not mention that the Indo?

Nearly everything that went wrong with the banks was our fault. The banks had little regulation. The banks were run by idiots who didn't care for the future. We guaranteed the banks security (the rest of the EU really hated that one at the time).
There was an option of completely abandoning the euro and defaulting but that would have been way worse.

Yes, we undoubtedly made a balls of our own economy by light touch regulation and general gobsh1ttery and the bank guarantee was an utter disaster.

However, I would point out that the fact interest rates within the Eurozone were kept low was to benefit Germany, the fact that it helped to destabilise other Eurozone members was considered irrelevant. Furthermore, there is no justification for the way private debt was forced on the Irish people.

IMO The fact that successive Irish governments have wanted to be seen as the best boy in school when it comes to the EU is just pathetic. Other countries are prepared to stand up for their own national interests, we're too scared to do it.

P.S. don't ever again accuse of reading the Independent

keithclancy

Yes, I like living in the European Union.

For the following reasons.

1. I can live and work anywhere I want in the EU and be treated the same as any other Citizen or other EU Citizen living in that member state.

2. I can get paid from a German Employer into a Dutch Bank account and pay my Irish Credit card via the Single Euro Payments Area scheme (an initiative of the European Union, without paying extra crazy charges or exchange rate fees.

3. I can drive across the Dutch/German border every day to work without having to stop at a checkpoint and be questioned by the Zoll/Douane/Border Control.

4. I can obtain Healthcare in the Country I work, or in the Country I live or obtain Emergency Healthcare through the EHIC System.

5. I can obtain goods and services (booze and cigarettes and cars excluded) from any other member state without problems.

6. My mobile costs for roaming are capped.

7. My car is packed with safety features thanks to EU Imposed safety standards.

I could spend all day thinking of more.

In general the quality of life in the European Union is quite good, I think we take the ability to go wherever we like to work or live without visas or being treated differently for granted sometimes.

Anytime I've gone outside of the EU I find myself thinking, hmm its not so bad.

My understanding is that in earlier days it was a nightmare for people to work across borders, social security problems, car registration/insurance problems, issues with cross border payments. The only real hurdle these days is Taxation as the EU has no mandate on taxation at all (unless it indirectly affects the ability to have free movement for example)

It's not perfect, but its better to have all your neighbors at the table arguing rather than everyone doing their own thing ending up with train tracks that are seperated 3 to 4 centimeters from train tracks in another country at the border.

The current crisis of the EU IMO is due to the hasty implementation of the Euro without more oversight or control of the economy in member states. Since everyone was now tied to the same Currency they didn't know how to deal with insolvency other than with a bail out. If Ireland had the punt then a default wouldn't have been as much of an issue (which Iceland has proven)

On the flip side of the Euro not being implemented very well.
I think it contributed to Irelands success in the Technology sector, since it had American Interest, access to the market in the UK and with a foot in the European Union. It also has control over its own taxation and in turn could offer very low Corporate Tax rates.

Unfortunately to make up the Revenue they/we created a Taxation System that took money from Stamp Duty, filled the market with cheap credit, which drove the property prices up... you know the rest.

So, in the end, there are many annoyances that are there in Europe. There are many problems that would exist anyway even without the European Union.

KomradeBishop

Grayson wrote: »

We got the bailout. If we weren't in the EU we'd have to default or if we were lucky get IMF money. Considering the conditions that were attached to other previous bailouts (like privatise everything) we got off lucky.

If we weren't in the Euro, we wouldn't have had the conditions in place that caused our crisis in the first place.

RobertKK

The EEC/EC/EU has been great for Europe and in my opinion it has brought us closer together, with common shared interests, goals and while being far from being perfect it has served the members well.

We don't have to worry about individual members going to war with another as happened too frequently in the past. It allows us to live in other EU countries given our passports represent the country we are from and the European union.

It has helped bring in foreign direct investment being a member of the EU.

BoJack Horseman

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If we weren't in the Euro, we wouldn't have had the conditions in place that caused our crisis in the first place.

Why didn't all eurozone members suffer the same economic fate as Ireland in 2008/09?

You'd almost think the crisis was largely self inflicted...

No.... No..... it must be someone else's fault!
It always is.

KomradeBishop

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Why didn't all eurozone members suffer the same economic fate as Ireland in 2008/09?

You'd almost think the crisis was largely self inflicted...

No.... No..... it must be someone else's fault!
It always is.

They are, just more slowly (even Germany is heading for trouble now) - here is the inflation rate in Europe:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/inflation-cpi

The whole of Europe is at risk of deflation, and we're all heading towards long-term stagnation ala Japans Lost Two Decades.

keithclancy

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If we weren't in the Euro, we wouldn't have had the conditions in place that caused our crisis in the first place.

I think the housing bubble would have happened anyway, only the solution to deal with insolvency would have been different.

Although this argument is like two people going into a financial arrangement single vs married. When single the debt is on your own risk, when married the risk is between two people.

Blaming a crappy solution to your financial problem on the basis that you shouldn't have been married in the first place doesn't make sense.

JohnMearsheimer

I like the European Union for the most part. There are many advantages to Ireland's EU membership. The one thing at the moment that would worry me would be tax harmonisation plans. There is no one size fits all with regards to taxation when you're dealing with 28 sovereign states. Everyone will be out to protect their interests (corporation tax in Ireland's case). I'm not entirely sure of the EU's ability to impose standardardized taxes though so tax harmonisation may only be something aspirational at the moment.

Arsemageddon

Grayson wrote: »

exit polls in Ireland showed the 60% of the people who voted didn't actually understand whet the Lisbon treaty was and that's why they voted no.

They voted yes the second time because they knew what it was at that stage.

Or are you actually saying that all those voters changed their minds because a foreign leader didn't approve of us. Do you actually think that little of people?

The Lisbon treaty was drawn up to replace the EU Constitution which was rejected in France and the Netherlands. They were pretty much the same thing (about 95% the same IIRC) the major difference was that the plain language used in the proposed constitution was replaced by the obtuse language used in the Lisbon Treaty.

The Lisbon treaty was ratified by other members national parliaments. We got to vote on a document that was designed to be unintelligible to the layman.

I am of the opinion that when the Irish electorate vote in a referendum the answer they give is always the correct one, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. Rerunning a referendum is fundamentally undemocratic. If the French and Dutch vote on pretty much the same document is respected then why shouldn't ours be?

KomradeBishop

keithclancy wrote: »

I think the housing bubble would have happened anyway, only the solution to deal with insolvency would have been different.

Although this argument is like two people going into a financial arrangement single vs married. When single the debt is on your own risk, when married the risk is between two people.

Blaming a crappy solution to your financial problem on the basis that you shouldn't have been married in the first place doesn't make sense.

Where would the money have come from, for the housing bubble?

BoJack Horseman

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Where would the money have come from, for the housing bubble?

Banks
Who borrow from other banks.

Just like what happened in non-eurozone countries that had a property bubble in the late naughties.

Membership of the single currency wasn't the cause of the housing bubble.

keithclancy

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

I like the European Union for the most part. There are many advantages to Ireland's EU membership. The one thing at the moment that would worry me would be tax harmonisation plans. There is no one size fits all with regards to taxation when you're dealing with 28 sovereign states. Everyone will be out to protect their interests (corporation tax in Ireland's case). I'm not entirely sure of the EU's ability to impose standardardized taxes though so tax harmonisation may only be something aspirational at the moment.

The only way its possible to work without some kind of tax problems in the European Union is to work for the European Union (or a Diplomatic Mission/NATO) :pac:

E.G
http://www.epo.org/about-us/jobs/why/salary-benefits.html

keithclancy

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Where would the money have come from, for the housing bubble?

The open market, just like how Ireland and other countries were borrowing money all along.

KomradeBishop

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Banks
Who borrow from other banks.

Just like what happened in non-eurozone countries that had a property bubble in the late naughties.

Membership of the single currency wasn't the cause of the housing bubblem

Ya but outside the Euro, the interest rate would have greatly limited the available money.

the evasion_kid

It has its advantages...though Ireland is a bit too quick to bend over backwards for it

BoJack Horseman

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya but outside the Euro, the interest rate would have greatly limited the available money.

Interbank lending by eurozone banks isn't restricted to other same Eurozone banks.

If say. BOI wanted to borrow €3bn on a given day, they would probably have borrowed at the best rate they could get.

That may have been a eurozone bank..... It may have been somewhere else cheaper.

The availability of cheap credit again, wasn't only found in the Eurozone. It permeated the entire global credit market.

Still not a reason to blame the bubble on membership of the Euro.

keithclancy

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya but outside the Euro, the interest rate would have greatly limited the available money.

There would still be the possibility to borrow money in Euro.

Jesus there were even some mortgages you could get in Europe that were tied to Japanese Yen.

Actually a person would be even more screwed in this scenario, since the hypothetical punt were talking about would be worth knacker all and your previously cheap Euro mortgage could quite possibly increase 5 or even 10 fold.

costadeldole

Do you like being in the European Union?
No, I don't.
Personally I preferred when I had 100 Punt in my pocket to 100 Euro on a Saturday night. When you had 100 Punt in your pocket you had something. 100 Euro is nothing.
The EU was great for Ireland in the 1980's and 1990's pumping billions of Euro into our country. But we gambled much of it away, and now we are broke and in debt.
Before the EU Ireland was broke. Now we are broke and in debt. So it would have been no loss to never have joined the EU. Well the loss would be we wouldn't have debt to pay back.
People talk about the advantages of having a common currency and open borders. But banks exchanging foreign currency is how they make money on commission. That is why the UK sterling remains strong, they charge Euro and USD to be exchanged. Using the Euro and they lose all that revenue stream.
Borders mean import taxes and duty, so that means every time we import we pay tax. But the borders also mean a revenue stream. Not when you use the same currency and have open borders though.
During the Celtic Tiger boom lots of Eastern Europeans came to work on the sites. It was good for us, good for them. We needed cheap labour, and they needed work. But now its bust and many are on the dole, they have been here 2 years plus so pass the HRC and get dole the same as any EU citizen.
I think Ireland would have been better to stay out of the EU, and keep the Punt and our own sovereignty, so other EU citizens would need a visa to enter, and not be allowed to claim social welfare here.
What I can see happening in the UK in 2015, is David Cameron being reelected and a Conservative/Liberal or Conservative/UKIP coalition. Then as promised, a referendum on the UK leaving/staying in the EU, with a close but negative result.
The truth is, the UK is better keeping Sterling and not using Euro, and retaining its sovereignty. Having their own currency keeps it strong against the Euro and USD. They are not so dependent on their respective economies.
The question is; if the UK leaves the EU, then would other countries follow suit? Probably not, as they have already adopted the Euro. But the ones in line to join may not, and may choose to stay independent.
A good example of how it can work is Switzerland. They retain their independence and have a strong economy, with their own currency. But openly trade with other EU member states as they are land locked by them.
I can't see Ireland ever leaving the EU now, but I would love to see it. The way Ireland feels now is European not Irish. In my own town I am more likely to hear a Polish accent walking down the street than an Irish one. And that is a big change from the 1980's, I suppose one could call it progress. Ireland is more multicultural than ever now.
The problem with being multicultural is when immigrants don't desire to integrate with their new country of choice. One quickly gets ghetto's where one ethnic group chooses to settle in an area; and the crime and social problems that go with that.
So being part of the EU with open borders has its benefits in the boom times; when one needs cheap labour to work long hours and do the dirty work. But in bust times socially people become more racist, and accuse the foreigners of taking their jobs. The truth is often the foreigners hang on to their low-paid jobs, and slowly work their way up; from labourer to supervisor etc. Then when the bust time comes they still have a job and are a supervisor, but the native that turned his nose up at the dirty work in the boom times; is on the dole.
Having lived with the Punt and the Euro, I would love to go back to when my pint cost 2.50 Punt not 5.50 Euro. I know inflation increases, but the truth is I feel poorer now with Euro than when I had Punts.
Maybe its nostalgia, but I loved the time in my life when we were Irish not European citizens.

crockholm

I would Think about 87% positive and 13 % negative about the EU, my problem is that I fear the negative is growing,Which is a personal dissappointment as I have Always been very pro EU/Europe