Eurostar at 20: Should Ireland have a eurostar service with the U.K?

WoollyRedHat

Eurostar was first introduced in 1994 and connected the U.K to France for the first time by rail, as well as in Brussels. 10 M passengers use the service, and journey times today betweem London to Paris is estimated around 2 hours. Anyone who has travelled on it can attest to its speed and a great alternative of travelling from one place to another. The newest route to be introduced is London to Amsterdam.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/nov/14/eurostar-at-20-how-has-the-service-grown

Since 1994 when the first Eurostar services launched between Waterloo International, Paris Gare du Nord, Brussels Midi and Lille Europe, 150m passengers have taken a trip on the high-speed passenger trains.

Would it be feasible to envisage a route connecting Dublin to London and how popular would it be? Eurostar estimate that when all things are considered that a flight to London to Paris is longer than the eurostar journey. There are many who dislike flying who would much prefer to travel by rail rather than plane, and it's better for the environment too, I'd guess. With speeds improving all the time, is it not time we consider a fast train service from Ireland to the U.K?
The cost of such a venture could be shared by both governments.

iDave

I'd be in favour of it so long as Irish Rail have no hand in it.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

That would theoretically be great, as Ireland would be linked through London to Continental Europe.

Leaving aside cost issues for the moment, has anyone though through the logistics/engineering bit? What would this system actually look like?

super_furry

Probably not worth it for Britain. They were opening up their rail system to a direct connection to mainland Europe with the channel tunnel. There'd be no such benefits for them in bringing it here.

uch

It'd take about 132 years to complete

WoollyRedHat

super_furry wrote: »

Probably not worth it for Britain. They were opening up their rail system to a direct connection to mainland Europe with the channel tunnel. There'd be no such benefits for them in bringing it here.

If they were looking towards the future, they could see it as an oppportunity of access to North America by rail. While we're quite some time away from that, it's something to consider.

Peregrine

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Would it be feasible to envisage a route connecting Dublin to London

No, probably not in this century.

Dravokivich

the reason it works between England and France has a lot to do with how narrow (relativly speaking) the English Channel is where it's going under water.

Isn't our closest land to land point with the UK between Northern Ireland and Scotland?

There'd be no point in getting the train from Dublin, a couple of hours up north, a couple of hours to scotland, a long haul south to London to transfar for a few more hours to france.

Makes flying Ryanair all the more appealing so it does, for as close as that gets you to your destination.

Grayson

Dravokivich wrote: »

the reason it works between England and France has a lot to do with how narrow (relativly speaking) the English Channel is where it's going under water.

Isn't our closest land to land point with the UK between Northern Ireland and Scotland?

There'd be no point in getting the train from Dublin, a couple of hours up north, a couple of hours to scotland, a long haul south to London to transfar for a few more hours to france.

Makes flying Ryanair all the more appealing so it does, for as close as that gets you to your destination.

Irishrail is a disaster. It'd be a hundred miles of a train that goes 20 miles an hour. And costs 10 times more than an ryanair.

pauld

The Welsh have it on their wish list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-30014563

robinph

Dublin to Holyhead is too far to build, same with Roslare to Pembroke. Larne to Stranraer might be feasable to build, but who would choose to travel that way to get between Dublin and London? Would only be useful for freight, but even that would be a tricky case as even the slow ferry from Wales to Dublin is quicker than a train up to Scotland and back down again.

DEFTLEFTHAND

A lot depends on the suitability of the seabed also, it could jack up the cost significantly. Dublin Holyhead is obviously a non starter and NI Scotland doesn't make logistical sense. A lorry leaving Dublin bound for London isn't going drive to the North then cross to Scotland and drive a further 400 miles south.

The ferry service works fine most of the time anyway doesn't it?

Birneybau

A big, inflatable bridge!

twin_beacon

would it be viable? we dont use trains for freight in Ireland much, we transport our containers on lorries. Considering the cost to build it maintain it, I doubt it would ever be cost effective.

Mint Sauce

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

That would theoretically be great, as Ireland would be linked through London to Continental Europe.

Leaving aside cost issues for the moment, has anyone though through the logistics/engineering bit? What would this system actually look like?

It would be pretty much only Dublin to start of with, and would need massive investment to the rail infrastructure here, due to the difference in rail gauge, and pretty much single track once you leave dublin and the other terminals around the country.

Kidchameleon

Wasn't there a tunnel started but never completed years and years ago? I remember reading about it on Boards.

BBJBIG

Jayzus - shure if Paddy was buildin it, it would chost a fortune to build and I guarantee yis that the Roof would be leakin 5 minutes after the opening ceremony ...

DEFTLEFTHAND

twin_beacon wrote: »

would it be viable? we dont use trains for freight in Ireland much, we transport our containers on lorries. Considering the cost to build it maintain it, I doubt it would ever be cost effective.

It's not actual railfreight with the Eurostar. The lorries drive on to special carriages, the train just brings them across the channel.

Gannicus

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

That would theoretically be great, as Ireland would be linked through London to Continental Europe.

Leaving aside cost issues for the moment, has anyone though through the logistics/engineering bit? What would this system actually look like?

I saw a documentary years ago about a bullet train running from the west coast or Ireland/Scotland to New York that could boast a time of 4 - 4.5 hours the engiineering side claim its is possible but not sustainable due to the Mid-Atlantic Ridge so I wonder if it would play a part between Dublin to even Wales never mind London

SEPT 23 1989

is a 1.5 hour sailing not quick enough?

Gannicus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

is a 1.5 hour sailing not quick enough?

if you're going to Holyhead thats alright but ferry to london is a tad longer

and lets face it, it would be far more efficient to train things to london than ferry them

Alun

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

is a 1.5 hour sailing not quick enough?

The current fast ferries do it in 2 hrs (Irish Ferries, if they actually sail which they often don't due to weather) or 2hrs 20min (Stena, but only during the summer). The normal ferries take 3 hrs 15mins.

keithclancy

Nah.

Most people I know don't take the Eurostar anyway, its expensive.

Much cheaper to take DFDS/Stena, crossing is only 55 minutes vs 35 minutes for the Chunnel with Car.

I might take it once, but it would mostly be for novelty value.

Plus investing that amount of money to reach an Island of only 4.2ish million people wouldn't make financial sense.

topper75

No case for it lads.

I know that is a negative statement, but negative realism trumps the old can-do positive pie in the sky.

kneemos

Last I heard the Channel Tunnel was billions in debt.
Don't see the Irish equivalent being economic.

seamus

Ultimately the distance isn't the primary barrier in any such tunnel.

The main barriers are;

1. The fact that we have very little rail infrastructure, and no rail "culture" in Ireland. Any tunnel would require massive investment in rail infrastructure. Like hundreds of billions, on top of the cost of the tunnel. Otherwise the tunnel would basically need everyone to drive to/from the terminus - just like you do with ferries. You probably couldn't recoup the cost of spending for a couple of hundred years.

2. The alternatives are not slow. At the time this was originally proposed in the 1800s, rail was by far the fastest way of getting around, so a rail link across the sea would speed up international travel massively. As it stands, a tunnel would mean a 1 hour crossing from Dublin to Holyhead by train. Versus a two-hour crossing by boat. Not that big a difference in reality.

For a much smaller investment we could improve links between the two countries by building ports which aren't slap bang in metropolitan areas like Dublin and Dun Laoghaire and providing world-class road and rails links to them.

keithclancy

Could they not just heap loads of dirt into the sea until they got to Wales instead ?

waraf

pauld wrote: »

The Welsh have it on their wish list.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-30014563

Loving the quote from Prof. Stuart Cole in that piece

"We're talking about something like £15bn......so we're not talking about a massive amount of money in the world of governments"

Yeah - try asking the Irish government to trump up half that amount Prof and see what they say

fryup

but we'll be no longer an island

and it'll make this song kinda obsolete ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAiYLTiBiDk

MadYaker

As long as Ryanair are selling flights to the UK for 40 quid what's the point?

who the fug

BBJBIG wrote: »

Jayzus - shure if Paddy was buildin it, it would chost a fortune to build and I guarantee yis that the Roof would be leakin 5 minutes after the opening ceremony ...

Think you will find them Donegal lads did a great job on the channel tunnel, paddy's do build exceptionaly great tunnels

who the fug

keithclancy wrote: »

Could they not just heap loads of dirt into the sea until they got to Wales instead ?

Yeah we will help our end by rebuilding Arthur's dyke

Mint Aero

Money be far better spent on hospital beds :rabble: :rabble: :rabble: :mad:

Strong Life in Dublin

Oh yeah definitely, I don't know why we never constructed one in the past. But would it be feasible now with cheap flight these days?

harry Bailey esq

keithclancy wrote: »

investing that amount of money to reach an Island of only 4.2ish million people wouldn't make financial sense.

This.A nation of our size and population couldn't possibly justify funding a project of that scale.London to Paris makes sense,those two cites have a combined population of 20million plus,and also Its a connection that opens up mainland europe.Ireland to the UK just isnt viable

Sh1tbag OToole

Gannicus wrote: »

if you're going to Holyhead thats alright but ferry to london is a tad longer

and lets face it, it would be far more efficient to train things to london than ferry them

Whats in London anymore? They just push money around in the Financial services sector and that will soon all belong to the Chinese and the Russians. We dont import anything from London that's worth building a tunnel for.


Could they not build a tunnel and just let cars drive through it?

Sh1tbag OToole

Mint Aero wrote: »

Money be far better spent on hospital beds :rabble: :rabble: :rabble: :mad:

I have a few spare if theres a hospital that will take them

tharmor

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Eurostar was first introduced in 1994 and connected the U.K to France for the first time by rail, as well as in Brussels. 10 M passengers use the service, and journey times today betweem London to Paris is estimated around 2 hours. Anyone who has travelled on it can attest to its speed and a great alternative of travelling from one place to another. The newest route to be introduced is London to Amsterdam.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/nov/14/eurostar-at-20-how-has-the-service-grown


Would it be feasible to envisage a route connecting Dublin to London and how popular would it be? Eurostar estimate that when all things are considered that a flight to London to Paris is longer than the eurostar journey. There are many who dislike flying who would much prefer to travel by rail rather than plane, and it's better for the environment too, I'd guess. With speeds improving all the time, is it not time we consider a fast train service from Ireland to the U.K?
The cost of such a venture could be shared by both governments.

Maybe irish rail first needs to be upgraded to Match firstcapital connect, southern etc before we even consider eurostar !

wildefalcon

What about the thing Elon Musk was talking about - the hyperloop? Maybe on a bridge, like the long one over the South China Sea?

oppenheimer1

tharmor wrote: »

Maybe irish rail first needs to be upgraded to Match firstcapital connect, southern etc before we even consider eurostar !

Have you ever been on a first capital connect train? Irish rail would actually put them to shame.

the dark phantom

Too small a population in Ireland for it to succeed..Although Hainan has similar population to Ireland and is linked by a large rail tunnel to Guangdong but her population and industry is increasing at a much greater rate than Ireland's. A country that can't even provide an airport in the midlands could never make a success of a rail tunnel..

The_Valeyard

How long does the swift take? An hour and thirty?

Seems alright.

Berserker

I want to see the Luas or an underground service of some sort going to Dublin airport first and foremost. No real need for a tunnel to the mainland UK, flights and ferries are cheap and plentiful.

The Diabolical Monocle

Spend a fraction of the billions it would cost for a tunnel on developing super fast ferrys.

Irish ferries swift travels at 40 knots/75kph/46mph, sure you'd probably only average about that speed if there was a land link and you could drive there. (holyhead).

Spend a percentage of the cost of the tunnel on getting the ferry up to 50 knots/92kph/57mph.

You'd be there in just over an hour. No need for a tunnel at that speed.

supersean1999

Would it be possible to have it starting at sellafield. Make it less likely the illegals would want to hangout at the tunnel. In case of an old weak or two.

Cantremember

As long as it's a monorail.

hfallada

Is everyone forgetting that Dublin to London is the busiest flight path in Europe? With the train being convenient more people will use it than flying. But the cost of a ticket would be massive. The high speed from Munich to Berlin is about €130 one way, but you can fly for €80. But still a ton of people still take the train

anncoates

LOL.

The cost of the Eurostar was colossal. Plus it links the 2 largest cities in Europe and a country of 65 million to mainland Europe.

There's no way you're going to see a similar (actually longer) line built to service an island with a population of 6 million.

Its Only Ray Parlour

I was driving through Dublin's city center today and it reminded me of two things this city needs (especially the first one):

1. The demolition of every council flat around the city center.

2. An underground/subway.

I would like to see that money being spent on fixing problems within our boarders first. If Ireland has an electrical rail network for the major cities, we would do a lot of good for the environment. Of course, we would also need nuclear power instead of burning coal and peat for our power plants.

anncoates

Its Only Ray Parlour wrote: »

I would like to see that money being spent on fixing problems within our boarders first. .

Never going to happen. Have you read some of the threads in here?

Eutow

hfallada wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting that Dublin to London is the busiest flight path in Europe? With the train being convenient more people will use it than flying. But the cost of a ticket would be massive. The high speed from Munich to Berlin is about €130 one way, but you can fly for €80. But still a ton of people still take the train

I don't think so. A flight from Dublin to London is 50 minutes, not including check-in times etc, so say 2 and a half hours - 3 hours all together as a rough guess. You can get a flight that is cheaper than a one way ticket from Birmingham to London Euston, and that journey takes 75 minutes to 90 minutes by Virgin, or 2 hours by London Midland.

A train from Holyhead to London is about 4 hours, and then you have to include the journey from Dublin to Holyhead. Plus, you will have to go through similar security for an airport for the Dublin - Holyhead portion.
It would cost Billions and it would never be paid back.

It's not worth it, the Channel tunnel hasn't made a profit and that links a major city to mainland Europe.