This is England '90 in 2015

vanman99

I think it was fantastic, the first 3 episodes where slow and didn't appear to go anywhere but the final episode was perfect in slotting everything together.

Ash.J.Williams

briany wrote: »

Well, I'm sure Meadows could get the point across infinitely better than I, but the point I was making was that Combo getting into the car with Milky was a bit unrealistic, to me at least. The whole calmly accepting your fate (death in this case) is a bit of a trope. Really, you'd cut and run (f**k off, Milky. I'm not gettin' in that car).

it happens daily in Dublin, so how can it be unrealistic

Ash.J.Williams

Milky's situation reminds me of Richard in dead mans shoes " You, you were supposed to be a monster - now I'm the ****1ng beast."

Milky has set combo free and has taken on his burden and it will kill him eventually.

patmac

Dan Chipowski wrote: »

Really disappointing series, lazy and boring.

Sorry for your troubles.

Ash.J.Williams

we definitely have not seen the skinheads before ???? I'm stumped on that one

spud82

It has taken me until now to gather my thoughts on the series.

The finale had my heart in my mouth. I felt for Combo and knew he was a changed man my heart broke for him. Milky was trapped, he had made his family and friends, how had promised him that they would get redemption for him. Even if Milky had forgiven him, you couldn't realistically expect his family and friends to understand it. And when the doors open and you saw who was there, you knew it was over for Combo, they ( former gang members) obviously couldn't accept the way in which Combo had changed and saw it has a betrayal and "ended him"

Shaun, glad he got a happy ending and new girlfriend. I may be in the minority here but Smell always annoyed me. I didn't like them in the film together and she always seemed to boss him in the film and the series and be bitching and moaning.

Woody and Lol, DELIGHTED!! Their love is real. Anyone who thinks otherwise look at the scene from 1988 and you will see how the two of them adore and are so well together. In fairness if you can forgive your girlfriend for having a baby with your best friend you love her.

Milky obviously felt guilty for what has happened to Combo. The way in which he stayed at the bar while everyone else was so sad. It could be reading to much into it but I read it as he didn't feel right celebrating and being happy as he is carrying the guilt with him.

Kelly - So glad she didn't die and is on the road to recovery. She is back where she belongs and hopefully she'll recover

Gadget and Harvey- yyyaa, the two best friends together again. So glad they are back friends they are the dynamic duo

BPKS

The scene where Chrissy hits Woody's mom, and Woody is there smiling away at the whole thing was top notch. And then the apologies in the bedroom. It was an example of the humour that prevailed throughout the 3 TV series and the film - despite the bleakness and troubles of the character's lives.

I can see how This is England doesnt appeal to the masses. But for me its as good as anything thats been on TV in a long time.

Also nice to see Meadows squeeze so much Stone Roses music into the last show.

Seanachai

Panthro wrote: »

Kelly's a bit of a fcuktard.

Who did the lads in the van drop combo off to?

Heyup, adverts over

I was wondering that, do the man dem outsource their killing to some other gang?.

Ash.J.Williams

Seanachai wrote: »

I was wondering that, do the man dem outsource their killing to some other gang?.

here ya go

Seanachai

Could he have stopped the killing?, it seemed from what he said that it was a family pride thing and it was out of his hands. He could have forewarned Combo though and he could have moved to Scotland or something. He seemed to have lost out anyway when everybody else appeared to have found some sort of resolution.

weemcd

Slightly low key ending to the series tbh, BUT if you take This is England as an entire body of work it was perfect.

Natural characters who you actually care about, real life situations with believable acting and dialogue. Inspired music score. Social and political issues raised without being overbearing. The show looked and felt like it was made back in the 80's continuing through to the 90's.

What about Shaun and the new photographer girl? Fúckin hell he landed on his feet there, Smell's awkward jealousy was great.

Gadget put on a great performance, as did Kelly when she was sat on that bench giving Gadget hell, that was real acting.

Just recently watched the film again, I'm gonna watch it all through just to refresh my memory.

Ash.J.Williams

Not sure if i'm double posting but here is "who killed combo" ....now i just need to know "why"!


the guy at the front of the movie pic is the same guy

Seanachai

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

here ya go

Can't access them for some reason

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Haznat

The lads are most likely milky's mates. It would be a bit stupid to do it himself.

Ash.J.Williams

We know the black fellas are his family, but it was the the two skinheads waiting at the docks that really freaked out combo.

Tigger

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

Seanachai

Tigger wrote: »

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

He might have informed to get a shorter sentence maybe?, it could have been a gesture from the NF to the Milky's uncles that they were serious about doing business together.

Haznat

Tigger wrote: »

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

The speech playing over the scene is Hugh Gaitskell's speech on apartheid.

I'm assuming that they weren't NF because it would make no sense for them to be working with Milky's family. I thought the scene represented the death knell for the NF through Combo as they pretty much died out in the 90's.

Seanachai

Haznat wrote: »

The speech playing over the scene is Hugh Gaitskell's speech on apartheid.

I'm assuming that they weren't NF because it would make no sense for them to be working with Milky's family. I thought the scene represented the death knell for the NF as they pretty much died out in the 90's.

They could have been the white side of Milky's family?

Haznat

Seanachai wrote: »

They could have been the white side of Milky's family?

They could have been. I don't think they were National Front though.

Ruu

Was Meggy at the wedding?

briany

What was with the beard and baggy jumper that Woody had on for practically the whole of '90. Combo said he looked like David Bellamy. I'd say he looked more like he'd been held hostage.

briany

Ruu wrote: »

Was Meggy at the wedding?

Yes, there was a brief shot of him in the revelry.

FelineOverLord

briany wrote: »

What was with the beard and baggy jumper that Woody had on for practically the whole of '90. Combo said he looked like David Bellamy. I'd say he looked more like he'd been held hostage.

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Seanachai

FelineOverLord wrote: »

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Given the father she had I'd say he could have wore a bin liner and she'd be happy she's with him.

briany

Seanachai wrote: »

Given the father she had I'd say he could have wore a bin liner and she'd be happy she's with him.

If there's one thing we've learned from the whole TiE saga, it's that Woody and Lol are simply meant to be, but Woody looks more like he'd just lost the love of his life than was living with her, about to get married.

trashcan

Laurel_Patente wrote: »

I loved it, felt like it wrapped up everything perfectly. It just showed that Lol really was the emotional heart and centrepiece of this wonderful programme. Even in the scenes she wasn't in tonight, it somehow came back to her. For all of us that watched her suffer through '86 and '88 in particular, to see her finally happy was truly wonderful. Vicky McClure is a star and will hopefully go from strength to strength.
.

Agree about Lol, and Vicky McClure. She's also excellent in Line of Duty, which I saw two series of before I realised it was her. (In fairness I hadn't seen TIE in a while when watching Line of Duty.) Completely different role, but she's great in it.

On the series, I found it a bit understated after the previous series, but still watchable, Very much character driven rather than plot driven. Combos fate was heartbreaking (still not sure I understood the handover - why would Milkys family be working with the NF ? And why would the NF want to kill Combo ?) but maybe his complete transformation from out and out psycho to paragon of virtue was a little bit too good to be true.

Thought Sean was a bit underused this time too. Possibly a consequence of him being based on the writer of the show.

spiderdan

Thought it was the worst of all three seasons. The writing seemed a bit all over the shop and lacking in any real substance. I did really like the Combo Milkey sub-plot, as for the other story lines I didn't care as much. Overall disappointing season but as a whole movie/ 3 series amazing.

BMMachine

I've had time to digest this now. I thought it was very good.

The whole arc in this series I think was forgiveness and it was a theme that came up time and time again. There was Shauns initial fight in the first episode where the 'vampire' says sorry and no hard feelings and Shaun outright attacks him. Again in the second you have Harvey apologising to Gadget after throwing out the map and has a moment of self realisation where he knows how stupid and childish that was. In the third episode you have the dinner table scene and Woody quite specifically says "forgiveness is overrated" to the man he forgave. Then in the last episode, you have the scene with Milky and Combo where Milky can't forgive him but Combo's last words to him were "I forgive you". This was the same Combo that had just turned everything around against the odds. He had started working at a job he actually seemed like he would be good at and was rebuilding his life after shattering many others behind him, trying to atone for his mistakes. Milky though, when push came to shove, refused to help him. The scars from that day still very visible and instead of giving the man a chance and rising above it, lets him die with Combo's last words still ringing in his ears. The last shot being that of Milky, totally distraught on what was the happiest day for everyone else, showed that in the defining moment (remember the lecture Shaun had) he didn't do the right thing. The power was in his hands and he knew he f**ked it and those scars would be with him and burn deeper than the ones on his face.

vanman99

FelineOverLord wrote: »

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Where you around in the 90's, this was the whole madchester, pregrunge look.

FelineOverLord

vanman99 wrote: »

Where you around in the 90's, this was the whole madchester, pregrunge look.

Yes, I was 18 in '91 and nobody I knew wore dirty clothing.

Seanachai

BMMachine wrote: »

I've had time to digest this now. I thought it was very good.

The whole arc in this series I think was forgiveness and it was a theme that came up time and time again. There was Shauns initial fight in the first episode where the 'vampire' says sorry and no hard feelings and Shaun outright attacks him. Again in the second you have Harvey apologising to Gadget after throwing out the map and has a moment of self realisation where he knows how stupid and childish that was. In the third episode you have the dinner table scene and Woody quite specifically says "forgiveness is overrated" to the man he forgave. Then in the last episode, you have the scene with Milky and Combo where Milky can't forgive him but Combo's last words to him were "I forgive you". This was the same Combo that had just turned everything around against the odds. He had started working at a job he actually seemed like he would be good at and was rebuilding his life after shattering many others behind him, trying to atone for his mistakes. Milky though, when push came to shove, refused to help him. The scars from that day still very visible and instead of giving the man a chance and rising above it, lets him die with Combo's last words still ringing in his ears. The last shot being that of Milky, totally distraught on what was the happiest day for everyone else, showed that in the defining moment (remember the lecture Shaun had) he didn't do the right thing. The power was in his hands and he knew he f**ked it and those scars would be with him and burn deeper than the ones on his face.

Milky did seem to come out the worst in the end unfortunately, he could have acted and warned combo about his family's intentions on the street but would they just have found him anyway?. It seemed from the dialogue at least to be out of his hands. He has to live with the trauma of the beating and now the guilt of Combo's death. It did seem an awful waste given how far combo had come, his life was a string tragedies.

I thought the end scene otherwise was very uplifting with Lol and Woodie and the other characters celebrating. It wasn't in a fancy joint but they were happy, I wish people could have that attitude in these times. The whole series made me very nostalgic for those times, the boom messed things up in our society afaik.

I know it's probably stretching it but I'd love to see what becomes of them all, especially Milky and Kelly in one last series or feature film maybe.

BMMachine

hmmm, I think from the last episode when Milky got the phone call and was asked if he was backing out that it very much was in his hands. I think he was caught between his family, his pride and his morality. In '86 and '88 he learned a lot about pride and family from Woody and Lol and had been through so much since '82 (the movie) that you had a very confused man wanting to do the right thing in trying to keep everybody happy. In the end though, he knew he let himself down. He was juggling so many balls if you think about it, coping with the attack, his daughter, his relationship with his family, his relationship with Woody and Lol that he wasn't able to keep it all going. He took the easy route, what he thought would be the most cathartic route and in that defining moment when he could have called it off and saved Combo, he watched him get taken away.

It was very well acted by Andrew Shim as well. I personally feel he was one of the weaker actors in the main cast but in the last two episodes since the dinner table I thought he did an excellent job at showing a character in turmoil. Even when he confronts Combo in the street you could hear the stammer, the guilt and the indecision.

Seanachai

BMMachine wrote: »

hmmm, I think from the last episode when Milky got the phone call and was asked if he was backing out that it very much was in his hands. I think he was caught between his family, his pride and his morality. In '86 and '88 he learned a lot about pride and family from Woody and Lol and had been through so much since '82 (the movie) that you had a very confused man wanting to do the right thing in trying to keep everybody happy. In the end though, he knew he let himself down. He was juggling so many balls if you think about it, coping with the attack, his daughter, his relationship with his family, his relationship with Woody and Lol that he wasn't able to keep it all going. He took the easy route, what he thought would be the most cathartic route and in that defining moment when he could have called it off and saved Combo, he watched him get taken away.

It was very well acted by Andrew Shim as well. I personally feel he was one of the weaker actors in the main cast but in the last two episodes since the dinner table I thought he did an excellent job at showing a character in turmoil. Even when he confronts Combo in the street you could hear the stammer, the guilt and the indecision.

I think I only caught the tail end of that scene after coming back from the jacks tbh. If he could have called it off even at the last minute then it was a bad choice given that he has a conscience that he'll have to live with.

Ash.J.Williams

I'm watching it now ...I'm puzzled at how come it was a national front member from the movie that killed combo...unless anyone has a good reason I'm going to assume there's a clue hidden in the movie/doc footage

memorystick

Just noticed that the girl in goals at the indoor soccer has Down syndrome. I could be wrong.

Ash.J.Williams

I can only conclude that milkys uncles are in the afa as someone mentioned here and they dealt with it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action

Milkys face when combo told him it was jealousy and not racist was well acted.

gucci

This is a good rounded explanation of one of the very strong themes of the show.

To be honest I wasn’t overly convinced by this series, but on reflection I think it was a very worthy conclusion to the overall life story of the TIE series.
The beauty of TIE is the strong storylines that tell themselves, there is often comic relief added in too for good measure and of course the shooting and music adds a wonderful atmosphere, be it to crank up the tension or release the good times. It is something that the production is superb at. What I really love about it (which can be a killer at times) is how clean it is. It is a well written show in so far as numerous characters stories are told at the same time, but it never seems rushed or cluttered in any one scene. Each moment of drama, sadness, happiness, forgiveness is given its rightful build up, climax and usually we see the consequences too. It takes great discipline I am sure in the shooting and editing to achieve this but it is something that many shows can sometimes bulldoze through and make a hash of.


One strong theme that has been there from the start is the strength in female characters, and a very underrated one in my opinion is Shauns mum Cynthia. I think it is apparent throughout the full story arc that Shaun is very close to becoming lost into various holes like many of the other characters at various time, yet his mum is the one who always remains constant for him. Her love for him never wavers, despite outbursts, anger and his problems. Despite having many problems of her own you always know she has Shauns best intentions at heart and puts him first. This is all while being perceived as a ditsy zany type character. And like many boys/ men Shaun clearly loves her too yet cannot really figure out how or when to say it, and the last scene we see of them together with the camera is so perfectly portrayed. We have seen Shaun vulnerable and emotional at many stages, but now it seems he has become a man and it looked to me like the penny finally dropped when he picked out the camera that his mum was the one who kept him on the straight path to his eventual goal. And that for me was the best “conclusion” to the entire story arc that this series provided.
Looking at it from the outset, his mum could have been such a stereotypical strong and dominant character as we have seen in other shows or movies, but its the subtly and unorthodox telling of this part of the story that I think is beautiful.
We have watched Shaun from being a lost child falling into a skin head gang where he could have ended up being the one in Combos shoes (or perhaps on the other side of the van doors when the opened) but he has matured into a well-rounded young man with a potentially bright future.


Apologies if I went OTT on the thought process there…..I just have been thinking about it for 2 or 3 days to keep my mind off the rugby!

Ash.J.Williams

gucci wrote: »

This is a good rounded explanation of one of the very strong themes of the show.

To be honest I wasn’t overly convinced by this series, but on reflection I think it was a very worthy conclusion to the overall life story of the TIE series.
The beauty of TIE is the strong storylines that tell themselves, there is often comic relief added in too for good measure and of course the shooting and music adds a wonderful atmosphere, be it to crank up the tension or release the good times. It is something that the production is superb at. What I really love about it (which can be a killer at times) is how clean it is. It is a well written show in so far as numerous characters stories are told at the same time, but it never seems rushed or cluttered in any one scene. Each moment of drama, sadness, happiness, forgiveness is given its rightful build up, climax and usually we see the consequences too. It takes great discipline I am sure in the shooting and editing to achieve this but it is something that many shows can sometimes bulldoze through and make a hash of.


One strong theme that has been there from the start is the strength in female characters, and a very underrated one in my opinion is Shauns mum Cynthia. I think it is apparent throughout the full story arc that Shaun is very close to becoming lost into various holes like many of the other characters at various time, yet his mum is the one who always remains constant for him. Her love for him never wavers, despite outbursts, anger and his problems. Despite having many problems of her own you always know she has Shauns best intentions at heart and puts him first. This is all while being perceived as a ditsy zany type character. And like many boys/ men Shaun clearly loves her too yet cannot really figure out how or when to say it, and the last scene we see of them together with the camera is so perfectly portrayed. We have seen Shaun vulnerable and emotional at many stages, but now it seems he has become a man and it looked to me like the penny finally dropped when he picked out the camera that his mum was the one who kept him on the straight path to his eventual goal. And that for me was the best “conclusion” to the entire story arc that this series provided.
Looking at it from the outset, his mum could have been such a stereotypical strong and dominant character as we have seen in other shows or movies, but its the subtly and unorthodox telling of this part of the story that I think is beautiful.
We have watched Shaun from being a lost child falling into a skin head gang where he could have ended up being the one in Combos shoes (or perhaps on the other side of the van doors when the opened) but he has matured into a well-rounded young man with a potentially bright future.


Apologies if I went OTT on the thought process there…..I just have been thinking about it for 2 or 3 days to keep my mind off the rugby!

you're dead right..people were expecting to much from shawns character, but his job was to grow up and make something of his life and he did.

FelineOverLord

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

you're dead right..people were expecting to much from shawns character, but his job was to grow up and make something of his life and he did.

He was a teenager doing a photography course at the local college, it was hardly growing up and making something of his life.

Ash.J.Williams

FelineOverLord wrote: »

He was a teenager doing a photography course at the local college, it was hardly growing up and making something of his life.

nah you could see it clearly, when gadget bumped into him with juliette, he was a different shaun, seemed more mature then the others, and the only one with a career in mind.

gucci

It wouldn’t really have fitted in with the story and timeline if he was wearing an Armani suit and a rolex either would it? Not everything needs to be spelled out in black and white.

But he has went from a child clearly without direction, to a young man maturing. He has a future and looks to be on the road to an escape from the vacuum of small town mundane insular thinking mentality, an option that most of the other characters have not got.

ricero

Poor combo he finally turned his life around and that happens. A proper tragedy

wow I watched ep 1 and 2 on channel four as they were shown. I downloaded 3 and 4 on sunday, what a program, superb, even down to the luduigo what's his face theme tune, just brilliant.

agreed that combo scene was stomach churning stuff.. a very conflicted milky eh!

Ash.J.Williams

FelineOverLord wrote: »

Yes, I was 18 in '91 and nobody I knew wore dirty clothing.

you haven't lived!!

anyone that lived in groups of their own age and had no money ...wore dirty clothing

ricero

Jasus smell became a right **** in the end

FelineOverLord

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

you haven't lived!!

anyone that lived in groups of their own age and had no money ...wore dirty clothing

Yeah, but Woody was a father of 2 young kids, not some under 25 sharing a house with other under 25 year olds. There's a massive difference between grunge and bad personal hygiene.

Ash.J.Williams

FelineOverLord wrote: »

Yeah, but Woody was a father of 2 young kids, not some under 25 sharing a house with other under 25 year olds. There's a massive difference between grunge and bad personal hygiene.

people are still like that

BMMachine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9MF23z4qR0

not sure if it was posted in here before but this might give you better insights to the characters look including comments from the actors themselves, specifically Woody

Ally Dick

I found this show dreadfully disappointing. The two blokes with the blonde hair and glasses were ridiculous. More suited to Alan Partridge. There were moments of serious overacting....and boring at times too. Stephen Graham was good as usual. Can't say much about the rest