Hard left

mariaalice

Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

Banjo String

Wha

uch

I Like Cake !

duckcfc

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happy.

I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

retalivity

Have you ever accidentally the whole thing?

mariaalice

duckcfc wrote: »

If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

I would be left(ish) in my views but not too the extreme, what would happen if the people before profit was running the country for example.

I know what left wing politics is but I am talking specifically about Irish politics.

Davarus Walrus

I'd always recommend a book called The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers Party, for an account of the development of the far left in Ireland. It shows how some on those on the left ended up becoming Tanaiste, while others are still gibbering on about 'the trots' and class revolution.

Most of them are just frustrated malcontents. Should be treated with the same contempt as those on the far right.

Stheno

Do we actually have a hard left political movement in this country?

Insect Overlord

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Rightwing

Left want everything kept in public ownership. Most think this is good, but:

Just look at the airline industry and ask youself was it good when Aer Lingus owned everything and charged £500 to go to London. Or the big bad private companies like Ryanair charging you €30.

Galwayguy35

I hope the day never comes where Paul Murphy is in power.

Davarus Walrus

duckcfc wrote: »

If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

Stop using rape as a verb to make your point. It adds a real hint of malice to an argument that would otherwise be seen as merely misguided.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Stheno wrote: »

Do we actually have a hard left political movement in this country?

You must be joking. Of course we don't.

BoJack Horseman

Stheno wrote: »

Do we actually have a hard left political movement in this country?

There are loads..... Way more than on the far right.

Eirigi
The Communist Party
Fís Nua (kind of)
AAA/SP
PBP
Workers Party
Shinners (depending on populist mood at the given moment)
United Left

fxotoole

mariaalice wrote: »

are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

Yes.

Laura Palmer

Daxton Abundant Bump wrote: »

You must be joking. Of course we don't.

I think there definitely is: People Before Profit, United Left Alliance, The Socialist Party, SF is very left-wing, Eirigí.
Whether people take them seriously or not, they're there, and commanding support - particularly with Irish Water.

My views are left of centre but I find a lot of the above too extremist.

Rightwing

Laura Palmer wrote: »

I think there definitely is: People Before Profit, United Left Alliance, The Socialist Party, SF is very left-wing, Eirigí.
Whether people take them seriously or not, they're there, and commanding support - particularly with Irish Water.

My views are left of centre but I find a lot of the above too extremist.

True. FF would probably appeal to you, increase welfare/OAP/PS wages every year.

downonthefarm

Aww was expecting to see see a video of some gimp getting a king hit
disappointed now :-(

Laura Palmer

Rightwing wrote: »

True. FF would probably appeal to you

Not a fooking chance! :pac:

BoJack Horseman

Laura Palmer wrote: »

Whether people take them seriously or not, they're there, and commanding support -

Not really though

Exclude the Shinners (who are probably too close to the centre to be really hard left).... The combined 1st preference vote of my listed far-left parties was a paltry 3.6% at the locals.

In the much vaunted 'referendum on austerity' in May....... Just 3.6%.

Laura Palmer

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Not really though

Exclude the Shinners (who are probably too close to the centre to be really hard left).... The combined 1st preference vote of my listed far-left parties was a paltry 3.6% at the locals.

In the much vaunted 'referendum on austerity in May'.... Just 3.6%.

Oh yeh, what I mean is, there is a hard-left movement - even if it's not going to be winning elections.
It was my response to people questioning that there is such a movement. There definitely is IMO.

curioser

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I'd always recommend a book called The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers Party, for an account of the development of the far left in Ireland. It shows how some on those on the left ended up becoming Tanaiste, while others are still gibbering on about 'the trots' and class revolution.

Most of them are just frustrated malcontents. Should be treated with the same contempt as those on the far right.

Second this.
Fascinating reading and good background to the evolution of what is now the Labour Party. IIRC it details a conference of Democratic Left where Kathleen Lynch called Eric Byrne a "guttie" (both now Labour TD's).
Also stories about current prominent Labour TD's attending camps and the like in East Germany and Cuba that were nothing but glorified knocking shops - great gas.

Rightwing

the har left represents a massive problem for Dublin, They are putting so much of the country's resources into Dublin, and this is where the hard left are strongest.

Generic Dreadhead

retalivity wrote: »

Have you ever accidentally the whole thing?

I LOL'd at this :pac:

Donkey Oaty

We need a Juche-Hoxhaist to stand against these lame excuses for socialists.

Dickie10

i often ask myself the same question, what exactly do the like of the socalists want? im a part time sheep and suckler farmer and a full time teacher, though if u break down my working hours i do about 25 hrs work on the farm a week when school is in term . in summer im full time farming only, with a very odd day of building/construction labouring for a bit of "fun money" eg galway races or holiday in sun.

Thing im constantly asking myself is where should i stand politically to protect my livlihood? my family is traditionally FF, i personally vote either FF or FG as most people i know that are strong FF/FG voters or party members are decent hard working and seem well rounded individualss with the same principles and values as myself ie hard work rewarded, indivdiual entrepenuership, the family farm, small local businessess being rewarded for their risk taking and adventure in business and giving employment.

The i here these socalists and sinn fein on about the elite and the rich and taxing to the hilt, what do they want exactly, for someone to come out of scholl with absolutly no drive or determination to work hard and succeed? what do we do all go straight into supermacs or a factory and start working for minimum wage? within a generation we would be all just workers with no brilliant minds such as Tony Oreilly, Micheal Oleary, Sean Quinn.

In school i always tell my 6th years when the last few classes of school come around to always be dilligent and hard working no matter what point they get in the LC,. hard work and good work ethic, communication skills and the drive to believe you can be anything you want through hard work will be rewarded at least thats what i always believed this country to be about and as i tell the yound adults in my class, that applys to overseas as well as ireland, more so perhaps because emigration is a constant in this country and always will be.

i really would be worried for this nation if hard left got to government, luckily though i belive that they are very much a loud minority. They have virtually no support in rural ireland or most parts of middle class urban ireland, as in South county Dublin, Howth, Sutton, Castleknock etc
Therefore i believe in FF/FG and Labour who have actually surprised me this term in how un left they have become.

Donkey Oaty

May I ask what subject you teach, Dickie?

KomradeBishop

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There are loads..... Way more than on the far right.

Eirigi
The Communist Party
Fís Nua (kind of)
AAA/SP
PBP
Workers Party
Shinners (depending on populist mood at the given moment)
United Left

Interesting - I've never heard of Fís Nua before, and their policies are extremely interesting; they present a number of very sensible policies (a ton that I advocate myself), for resolving the economic crisis, and preventing future ones - and even taking into consideration, issues with future climate change.

Do people take issue with many of that parties policies?

BigBrownBear

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There are loads..... Way more than on the far right.

Eirigi
The Communist Party
Fís Nua (kind of)
AAA/SP
PBP
Workers Party
Shinners (depending on populist mood at the given moment)
United Left

The Workers Party are virtually non existent these days, same with the Communist Party of Ireland
Sinn Fein probably have more members than all the others combined(not a member btw)

Nino Brown

mariaalice wrote: »

I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

To me they are a bunch of selfish people with a huge sense of entitlement. They protest taxes and spending cuts. They don't want to pay for what they use, but they are okay with our children paying for it. They think everything is a "right".
This country is still running 6-7 billion euro deficits, we are borrowing to pay for what we have already, so we are basically forcing the next generation to pay for our services, and their own.
I have no problem with people protesting water charges, if they have an alternative, like cutting social welfare or health expenditure, but they don't want that either. So the next time they want to get together and protest they should send a few people down to the local primary and secondary schools to explain to the next generation why they should be paying for the water and social welfare, and houses, of this generation.

mariaalice

I looked up Paul Murphy our of curiosity its interesting( nothing against him personality) and its all about protesting anything from a high speed train in Italy to the shell to sea campaign its all anti anti everything, plus a lot of the modern ones seem to come form very middle class backgrounds which they are rejecting and it all seemes very Dublin centred.

grundie

I think it's impossible for any country to function if those in power have policies exclusively to the left or right. There has to be a mix of left and right, and nothing too extreme either way. That's just human nature. Communism has never really worked because some people always try to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. "Some people were more equal than others" and all that.

Those on the hard left, and hard right, don't really get that. They may have a vision of a perfect society, but that is their vision. The rest of us have a more realistic and pragmatic view of the world. Society is just too complex for one political ideology to work.

KomradeBishop

Nino Brown wrote: »

To me they are a bunch of selfish people with a huge sense of entitlement. They protest taxes and spending cuts. They don't want to pay for what they use, but they are okay with our children paying for it. They think everything is a "right".
This country is still running 6-7 billion euro deficits, we are borrowing to pay for what we have already, so we are basically forcing the next generation to pay for our services, and their own.
I have no problem with people protesting water charges, if they have an alternative, like cutting social welfare or health expenditure, but they don't want that either. So the next time they want to get together and protest they should send a few people down to the local primary and secondary schools to explain to the next generation why they should be paying for the water and social welfare, and houses, of this generation.

There are plenty of alternatives - and they don't have to involve balancing the budget or running up unsustainable debt; people always say there are no alternatives, or say the only valid alternatives involve budget-balancing or risking unsustainable debt, when that is not the case.

I don't know Fís Nua very well, but from a quick look at the policies they support, they present many very good alternatives.

costadeldole

Dickie10 wrote: »

i often ask myself the same question, what exactly do the like of the socalists want? im a part time sheep and suckler farmer and a full time teacher, though if u break down my working hours i do about 25 hrs work on the farm a week when school is in term . in summer im full time farming only, with a very odd day of building/construction labouring for a bit of "fun money" eg galway races or holiday in sun.

Thing im constantly asking myself is where should i stand politically to protect my livlihood? my family is traditionally FF, i personally vote either FF or FG as most people i know that are strong FF/FG voters or party members are decent hard working and seem well rounded individualss with the same principles and values as myself ie hard work rewarded, indivdiual entrepenuership, the family farm, small local businessess being rewarded for their risk taking and adventure in business and giving employment.

The i here these socalists and sinn fein on about the elite and the rich and taxing to the hilt, what do they want exactly, for someone to come out of scholl with absolutly no drive or determination to work hard and succeed? what do we do all go straight into supermacs or a factory and start working for minimum wage? within a generation we would be all just workers with no brilliant minds such as Tony Oreilly, Micheal Oleary, Sean Quinn.

In school i always tell my 6th years when the last few classes of school come around to always be dilligent and hard working no matter what point they get in the LC,. hard work and good work ethic, communication skills and the drive to believe you can be anything you want through hard work will be rewarded at least thats what i always believed this country to be about and as i tell the yound adults in my class, that applys to overseas as well as ireland, more so perhaps because emigration is a constant in this country and always will be.

i really would be worried for this nation if hard left got to government, luckily though i belive that they are very much a loud minority. They have virtually no support in rural ireland or most parts of middle class urban ireland, as in South county Dublin, Howth, Sutton, Castleknock etc
Therefore i believe in FF/FG and Labour who have actually surprised me this term in how un left they have become.

You are a Teacher?
Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?
I pity the young adults you teach, and impart such nonsense to.
"hard work will be rewarded", not in this country it wont. Cronyism will be rewarded.
You would be better giving them reality; emigrate to the UK, Canada, or Australia where there is employment for young Irish people.
I can't take anyone seriously who lists Sean Quinn as someone to admire? You may as well add Sean Fitzpatrick to your list of heroes.
You keep voting FF just like your family does, you know best.

KomradeBishop

grundie wrote: »

I think it's impossible for any country to function if those in power have policies exclusively to the left or right. There has to be a mix of left and right, and nothing too extreme either way. That's just human nature. Communism has never really worked because some people always try to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. "Some people were more equal than others" and all that.

Those on the hard left, and hard right, don't really get that. They may have a vision of a perfect society, but that is their vision. The rest of us have a more realistic and pragmatic view of the world. Society is just too complex for one political ideology to work.

Ya the whole idea of either 'left' or 'right' being universally good/bad is nonsense - all economies on the planet are mixed economies, containing both capitalist and socialist elements, and posters who try to pretend that "any hint of capitalism is bad" or "any hint of socialism is bad", are just presenting a false dichotomy, which conflicts with reality (since there's no country which is 100% capitalist, and the countries that tried 100% socialism failed to make it work).

So obviously, it's a matter of trying to have a successful mix of capitalist and socialist policies - enough capitalist policies to have a prosperous private economy, and enough socialist policies to have a prosperous population and to stop capitalism caving-in on itself through economic crisis.

Ironically, you need 'socialism' for capitalism to work at its best - as you just can't have a 100% capitalist system; both words though, are rather meaningless generalizations when it comes down to it, and aren't helpful as a guide for finding the best policies.

Foxhound38

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

The likes of the SP and the SWP (Joe Higgins/Paul Murphy's outfit and Boyd Barretts outfit respectively) claim to follow differing interpretations of the political doctrine of Leon Trotsky, who was an early bolshevik leader during the russian revolution, later exiled and killed by Stalin.

I don't really have enough time to go into his theories in enough detail here, suffice to say they consist of the sort of bonkers crankology one could expect given their current proponents.

dotsman

duckcfc wrote: »

If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

Lol, I don't think you'd recognise right wing if you saw it. Irish government policies would typically range from left-wing to centre (with the bulk being centre-left).

The only right-wing tendencies this country has ever experienced is the love-affair with the catholic church.

On the economic front, Sinn Fein were always left-wing (sometimes far-left), Labour were traditionally a left-wing, but moved to centre-left in recent years, Fianna Fail were centre-left, as were the Greens and Fine Gael were centre (with a few ideas of centre-right, but they would never be implemented because they traditionally would have to enter power with left-wing and centre-left parties (thus a dilution of all their views), similar to the Progressive democrats.

Foxhound38

curioser wrote: »

Second this.
Fascinating reading and good background to the evolution of what is now the Labour Party. IIRC it details a conference of Democratic Left where Kathleen Lynch called Eric Byrne a "guttie" (both now Labour TD's).
Also stories about current prominent Labour TD's attending camps and the like in East Germany and Cuba that were nothing but glorified knocking shops - great gas.

Agreed, it is a great read. One of the better histories, especially of a story that for whatever reason doesn't really seem to come into public discourse much. For all that the current Labour crowd throw at SF (and I am by no means an easy defender of the shinners) it seems odd that they would forget that many in their own ranks including some TD's were up to their necks in the same sort of dodginess back in the 70's and 80's.

The_Valeyard

uch wrote: »

I Like Cake !

The cake is a lie.

mikemac1

costadeldole wrote: »

You are a teacher?
Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?

It's boards, it's not work here. If you get the message across then who cares. The only poster picking apart spelling is you.

Donkey Oaty

costadeldole wrote: »

You are a Teacher?
Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?

He could still be a great teacher.

Richard Hillman

I would say a lot of their followers dont really understand that they themselves are actually quite right wing. The hard left get most of their vote from quite run down areas. It is these places that you would find people that are the most anti-imigration, want smaller government, low taxes, fervently pro-life and would probably bring back corporal punishment.

They are so stupid that they do not realise that their core values are opposed to the very people they are voting for. A lot of their votership would also have quite extreme views on Northern Ireland. The likes of the Socialists, PBP and AAA would run a mile if they were questioned about Northern Ireland and privately would be extremely critical of the IRA.

gormdubhgorm

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

I know what your getting at a lot of them seem to just make non-coordinated hippie type noise with no real direction.

redfacedbear

In this interview with Sean Moncrieff the Socialist Party TD Ruth Coppinger outlines how she sees a socialist Ireland operating (about 8 minutes in).

It's proper old school Soviet stuff - workers committees running businesses, nationalisation of any industry of substance, taxing 'wealth' etc.

She does at least acknowledge that it would be impossible to implement in isolation but it is barmy all the same.

Muahahaha

Dickie10 wrote: »

i often ask myself the same question, what exactly do the like of the socalists want? im a part time sheep and suckler farmer and a full time teacher, though if u break down my working hours i do about 25 hrs work on the farm a week when school is in term . in summer im full time farming only, with a very odd day of building/construction labouring for a bit of "fun money" eg galway races or holiday in sun.

Thing im constantly asking myself is where should i stand politically to protect my livlihood? my family is traditionally FF, i personally vote either FF or FG as most people i know that are strong FF/FG voters or party members are decent hard working and seem well rounded individualss with the same principles and values as myself ie hard work rewarded, indivdiual entrepenuership, the family farm, small local businessess being rewarded for their risk taking and adventure in business and giving employment.

The i here these socalists and sinn fein on about the elite and the rich and taxing to the hilt, what do they want exactly, for someone to come out of scholl with absolutly no drive or determination to work hard and succeed? what do we do all go straight into supermacs or a factory and start working for minimum wage? within a generation we would be all just workers with no brilliant minds such as Tony Oreilly, Micheal Oleary, Sean Quinn.

In school i always tell my 6th years when the last few classes of school come around to always be dilligent and hard working no matter what point they get in the LC,. hard work and good work ethic, communication skills and the drive to believe you can be anything you want through hard work will be rewarded at least thats what i always believed this country to be about and as i tell the yound adults in my class, that applys to overseas as well as ireland, more so perhaps because emigration is a constant in this country and always will be.

i really would be worried for this nation if hard left got to government, luckily though i belive that they are very much a loud minority. They have virtually no support in rural ireland or most parts of middle class urban ireland, as in South county Dublin, Howth, Sutton, Castleknock etc
Therefore i believe in FF/FG and Labour who have actually surprised me this term in how un left they have become.

I'm not sure Dickie but given what FF/FG/Labour have done to this country economically and how they've cut teachers wages again and again I'm not sure how you think voting for them protects your interests

bnt

I suppose it depends on how much good you think Socialism is. The UK went hard left in 1948, nationalising everything: some of it was done OK (NHS, British Rail), and some of it wasn't (mines, British Leyland).

One of the problems there (in my view) is that governments can't react quickly to changes in markets, which goes some way to explaining what happened in the UK. The global coal market can be volatile, and when it comes to cars, global competition is fierce and no government should be in that business. When it comes to a health service, on the other hand ... have a look at the USA for how well a "market" works for that. :eek:

lazybones32

Mariaalice: the Left spends too much time b!tching about other factions of the Left to be able to do anything worthwhile. They cannot unite and are doomed to fail.

Nino Brown

bnt wrote: »

When it comes to a health service, on the other hand ... have a look at the USA for how well a "market" works for that. :eek:

US healthcare is anything but a free market, Medicare and Medicaid hugely distort the market and increases prices. Combined they cost $1 trillion in 2012, you can't put that of government money into anything and call it a free market.

mariaalice

redfacedbear wrote: »

In this interview with Sean Moncrieff the Socialist Party TD Ruth Coppinger outlines how she sees a socialist Ireland operating (about 8 minutes in).

It's proper old school Soviet stuff - workers committees running businesses, nationalisation of any industry of substance, taxing 'wealth' etc.

She does at least acknowledge that it would be impossible to implement in isolation but it is barmy all the same.

That brilliant the next time I am in work I will suggest we set up a workers committee to run the place :P

BigBrownBear

Probably one of the best examples of extreme left wing ideology in the 'British Isles' was the infiltration of the British Labour Party by Militant Tendancy.
These were a Trotksyist movement intent on taking over the Labour Party. They were expelled after some heated Labour Party conferences.

They existed to a lesser extent within the Irish Labour Party in the mid to late 80;s

But winning control of Liverpool City Council showed them up for the incompetents they were.
They over spent so much, with disregard to income, that they had to put 30,000 council employees on protective notice.
When they realised they couldn't pay them they had to go 'cap in hand' to look for funds from central government

adocholiday

Anyone who thinks FF or FG are right wing is deluded. It's a terrible pity we don't have a right wing party in Ireland. Badly needed counter point