Hard left

jungle_hostage

BoatMad wrote: »

not to mention that the scandavians are trying to reduce the effect of the state and its taxes and cut their health and other benefits systems. They couldn't make it pay either,


You might look at the relative sizes of populations, as well Ireland will always struggle to have a sufficient tax base.

im not a fan of the scandanavian system , im just pointing out the flaws in the irish lefts referal to that system , they want to cherry pick the bits they like

jungle_hostage

MightyMandarin wrote: »

And that is how you measure their blind stupidity. I've heard plenty of complaints about our health system in the past decade, and more often than not the Left, like to cite the Dutch system as an ideal model, because everyone is covered, the system is efficient and they actually pay less fees than us. However, they almost always fail to cite the fact that in Holland the vast majority of people pay 42%+ tax on their entire income, as well as plenty of other household charges, property taxes and water rates.

It's wonderful to look at the benefits of other systems and the nice things they have, but I have never heard a 'Left politician' claim we need to charge higher taxes in order to help more people, because if they did, they'd be the ones pelted with water balloons and trapped in their cars.

have you ever listened to the so called " health analyst " which RTE wheel out on drive time on a regular basis , sarah burke is here name

in the five years ive heard her comment on the health service , never once have i heard her suggest that anyone working there is surplus to requirements or that anyone is overpaid

most commentary in this country about the health service is at best hand wringing

BoatMad

Irelands has a relatively small population, it has a narrow tax base, yet it attempts to run systems designed for far greater tax takes then ours.

In my view probably the best health system is a toss up between the UK or the French, both of which ,in countries with far wider tax bases are struggling to pay for their systems.

it cant be done without removing even more income from ordinary people.

RubyRoss

Dickie10 wrote: »

Sean Quinn is a most admirable man, the employment he gave to the poor region of the north west was nothing short of a miracle and to do it all through pure hard work and good business acumen without any state help. id like to see some of these water meter protesters get themselves off the dole and do that, some chance.

You seriously need to rethink your ‘honest to goodness’ I’m a teacher-farmer values.

Sean Quinn squandered his money by taking a gamble on a dodgy bank and lost. So, he blames the bank. (Do you have similar sympathy for people who blow their earnings in a betting shop and then blame the betting shop?) Apart from funnelling money into his family’s bank accounts, Quinn took money from his own insurance company leaving the Irish state to prop it up at the cost of over E700 million.

But never mind that, keep teaching your pupils that Quinn is the true Irish hero and that the 100,000 people who marched against water charges are just people who can’t ‘get themselves off the dole’…When the next generation grows up with the same crooked dealings undermining the country, at least you’ll know how it happened.

KomradeBishop

MightyMandarin wrote: »

SF and the rest like to think that lowering taxes and raising spending is sustainable, maybe if any of them could use a calculator they would have a reasonable argument.

At a European level, with proper joint agreement by member states, this can be perfectly sustainable - up until the point of full-employment/inflation-hitting-targets (that's when the budget would have to be balanced).
This can be done sustainably at a local level too, without European help, but not with the Euro (we don't have to ditch the Euro to do it either though).

Economics is not as simple as having balanced budgets.

KomradeBishop

wprathead wrote: »

Their health policies leave alot to be desired:
:rolleyes:

Hmm...good spot; a lot of these smaller parties, do tend to associate with crackpots supporting anti-fluoridation and similar woo.

BoatMad

RubyRoss wrote: »

You seriously need to rethink your ‘honest to goodness’ I’m a teacher-farmer values.

Sean Quinn squandered his money by taking a gamble on a dodgy bank and lost. So, he blames the bank. (Do you have similar sympathy for people who blow their earnings in a betting shop and then blame the betting shop?) Apart from funnelling money into his family’s bank accounts, Quinn took money from his own insurance company leaving the Irish state to prop it up at the cost of over E700 million.

But never mind that, keep teaching your pupils that Quinn is the true Irish hero and that the 100,000 people who marched against water charges are just people who can’t ‘get themselves off the dole’…When the next generation grows up with the same crooked dealings undermining the country, at least you’ll know how it happened.

Funnily and Im a capitalist, Id completely agree with you here, Sean Quinn took a risky gamble, with borrowed money , screwed up and lost everything , thats only right and proper. Risk capital must shoulder the risk as well as the gain. At least he did, even though he has repeatedly tried to circumvent the law by hiding his assets,

KomradeBishop

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

End the system of debt based monetary circulation, particularly the fractional reserve system and the system of money generation by loan interest, which ensures that at any given time more money is owed back to banks than is actually owned privately by citizens.
...

I agree with your wider views in the whole post there, just a small technical bit I disagree with:
Effectively, it's not even fractional reserve - reserve requirements are not actually a limit; good (but technical) article on it here:
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2012/10/22/commodities/myth-money-multiplier

The takeaway point: Banks lend first, and shore-up reserves afterwards, and they go to the interbank market to shore-up reserves with other banks - but even if that fails, they can always go to the central bank, who will pretty much never refuse to shore-up a banks reserves

So, reserve requirements don't actually impose a limit; capital requirements (very different) do though.


Also, a wider topic, but paper-based i.e. fiat currency isn't a problem in any way; a currency backed by e.g. gold, doesn't make it any more 'real' - the majority of transactions happen as bits on computers nowadays anyway, so the vast majority of that gold would just be uselessly sitting in a vault.

KomradeBishop

Nino Brown wrote: »

You are absolutely right, but do you realize what it would mean to end this financial system?, it would require a monumental drop in living standards. No nation in their right mind is going to end fractional reserve banking voluntarily. When it does end, and it will, but not voluntarily, it will be horrific for everyone in the world for quite a while.
I agree with your sentiment on the monetary system, but Ireland don't have the influence to change it even if we wanted to. It's best for everybody to ride it out until the ends, and have contingencies for when it does.

It doesn't mean that at all - it just means that instead of 97% or so of all money, being created by banks when they make loans (debt-based money), you instead have some money created which is not debt-based (introduced to the economy through some means other than a loan).

You don't even have to end the current banking system to do this, you could just supplement it with money that is non-debt-based.

The controversy there is: How do you introduce non-debt-based money into the economy? The main way of doing that is through fiscal spending i.e. governments.


Europe as a whole could do this (except Europe is too dysfunctional to ever agree on any recovery policies), Ireland on its own can't while using the Euro, but Ireland on its own can do stuff similar to this, without using the Euro (don't even have to stop using the Euro either - can do it alongside).


People really should learn about how banks and the monetary system work - it's an incredibly important topic - have a quick read of just the first few sentences of this Bank of England report, for example:
www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q102.pdf

Most people are totally unaware of this stuff, yet it's very important that more people become informed on this topic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So, what exactly is "hard" left? Are we talking far left? Or just centrist left? And if the latter, what is "soft" left?

BoatMad wrote: »

not to mention that the scandavians are trying to reduce the effect of the state and its taxes and cut their health and other benefits systems. They couldn't make it pay either,


You might look at the relative sizes of populations, as well Ireland will always struggle to have a sufficient tax base.

Ireland has a comparable population all of the Scandanavian countries bar Sweden.

If you're going to look at Scandanavian models, though, you have to take into account quality of services though. Health, education, transport, sports facilities are far superior to what's avialable in Ireland. But I wouldn't call Scandanavia "hard" left in any case.

I've asked many times before: if you were guanateed much better services, would you be willing to pay more taxes?, and most people said yes.

BoatMad

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, what exactly is "hard" left? Are we talking far left? Or just centrist left? And if the latter, what is "soft" left?



Ireland has a comparable population all of the Scandanavian countries bar Sweden.

If you're going to look at Scandanavian models, though, you have to take into account quality of services though. Health, education, transport, sports facilities are far superior to what's avialable in Ireland. But I wouldn't call Scandanavia "hard" left in any case.

I've asked many times before: if you were guanateed much better services, would you be willing to pay more taxes?, and most people said yes.

I have worked in several scandavian countries over several years,

The tax burden is enormous, and a constant source of compliant. the public sector is over paid and excessive and job creation has stalled. There has been a steady drift to the right.

It no paradise.

Ireland with a large land mass per population , will always struggle to implement world class social services. It is not help by a over reliance on public sector jobs, feather bedding, and gold plate terms of service. None of this will be fixed anytime soon.

BoatMad

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It doesn't mean that at all - it just means that instead of 97% or so of all money, being created by banks when they make loans (debt-based money), you instead have some money created which is not debt-based (introduced to the economy through some means other than a loan).

You don't even have to end the current banking system to do this, you could just supplement it with money that is non-debt-based.

The controversy there is: How do you introduce non-debt-based money into the economy? The main way of doing that is through fiscal spending i.e. governments.

what you are referring to is moral hazard. debt, is a function of interest rate, which is the key controller a country has in controlling money supply,.

Europe as a whole could do this (except Europe is too dysfunctional to ever agree on any recovery policies), Ireland on its own can't while using the Euro, but Ireland on its own can do stuff similar to this, without using the Euro (don't even have to stop using the Euro either - can do it alongside).

no we can't and no Europe couldn't.

People really should learn about how banks and the monetary system work - it's an incredibly important topic - have a quick read of just the first few sentences of this Bank of England report, for example:
www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q102.pdf

Most people are totally unaware of this stuff, yet it's very important that more people become informed on this topic.

yes yes money supply. most people have no idea how it works in a fiat currency.


What i don't understand is what you are trying to fix with your suggestions. what issue(s) are you trying to deal with.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BoatMad wrote: »

I have worked in several scandavian countries over several years,

The tax burden is enormous, and a constant source of compliant. the public sector is over paid and excessive and job creation has stalled. There has been a steady drift to the right.

It no paradise.

Ireland with a large land mass per population , will always struggle to implement world class social services. It is not help by a over reliance on public sector jobs, feather bedding, and gold plate terms of service. None of this will be fixed anytime soon.

Oh, I never said it was a paradise. I was merely saying that you can't judge it by tax levels alone - you're creating a very imbalanced argument by doing so. Even more so when you don't mention their social services or our taxes, or toss around terms like "feather-bedding" and "gold-plated terms of service."

KomradeBishop

BoatMad wrote: »

what you are referring to is moral hazard. debt, is a function of interest rate, which is the key controller a country has in controlling money supply,.

That doesn't fit the definition of moral hazard. You don't need debt to control the money supply; the interest rate is controlled by the central bank, and you can put the central bank in charge of non-debt-based money as well; if inflation rates approach the inflation rate target, the central bank stops providing non-debt-based money.

BoatMad wrote: »

no we can't and no Europe couldn't.

Yes, Europe can (if it weren't as politically dysfunctional as it is now), and yes, we can - just not using the Euro.

BoatMad wrote: »

yes yes money supply. most people have no idea how it works in a fiat currency.

What i don't understand is what you are trying to fix with your suggestions. what issue(s) are you trying to deal with.

To stabilize the economy by helping to solve the issue of excessive private debt (caused by an over-reliance on debt-based money, combined with the economic slowdown) while at the same time freeing up fiscal/government spending enormously (until full-employment/inflation-targets are reached); pretty much solving the economic crisis.

Don't Chute!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, what exactly is "hard" left? Are we talking far left? Or just centrist left? And if the latter, what is "soft" left?



Ireland has a comparable population all of the Scandanavian countries bar Sweden.

If you're going to look at Scandanavian models, though, you have to take into account quality of services though. Health, education, transport, sports facilities are far superior to what's avialable in Ireland. But I wouldn't call Scandanavia "hard" left in any case.

I've asked many times before: if you were guanateed much better services, would you be willing to pay more taxes?, and most people said yes.

They do have better services but it takes years for something like that to work and the people have to buy into it. Irish people are not willing to think long term or about anyone but themselves.

diomed

mariaalice wrote: »

Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

• Create jobs for everyone, with everyone paid about the same.
• Eliminate profits, because they go to capitalists, by paying a decent wage.
• Remove tax from the ordinary working man, and "tax the rich".
• Tax the wealthy so they have nothing left to invest, and businesses close.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

diomed wrote: »

• Create jobs for everyone, with everyone paid about the same.
• Eliminate profits, because they go to capitalists, by paying a decent wage.
• Remove tax from the ordinary working man, and "tax the rich".
• Tax the wealthy so they have nothing left to invest, and businesses close.

Source...?!!!

BoJack Horseman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Source...?!!!

Every time one of them opens their mouths.

In particular the Stalinist horror show that was Ruth Coppinger's interview on Newstalk recently

AudreyHepburn

duckcfc wrote: »

If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

Taxing the rich only while handing everyone everything else for little or nothing and paying them the same as the rich etc, which is what the Left would appear to want, is neither fair nor reasonable.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Every time one of them opens their mouths.

In particular the Stalinist horror show that was Ruth Coppinger's interview on Newstalk recently

Yeah, that's a Bill O'Reilly line if I ever I heard one.

Probelm is it does back to my original question about defining "hard" left. Diomed is obviously talking about extreme left, but I think most of us would argue against an extremist government in either direection.

BoJack Horseman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yeah, that's a Bill O'Reilly line if I ever I heard one.

Did you hear the interview?

I think its linked in the thread.

When someone calls for all businesses to be seized by the state & run by worker soviet councils...... Well, my label seems more than a little apt.

adocholiday

adocholiday wrote: »

Anyone who thinks FF or FG are right wing is deluded. It's a terrible pity we don't have a right wing party in Ireland. Badly needed counter point

I should have expanded on my point about a right wing party. To sum up my views:

- Increased taxes across the board, but raise the entry level for the second tier.
- Reduce social welfare spending: Introduce means testing for various benefits, tiered payments based on age and length of time on the dole, remove rent allowance for those in the cities, get rid of free travel pass except for disabled people, revamp medical card scheme.
- Reduce public sector pay bill: Revamp the administration heavy services. The HSE has 7 tiers of management for example. Compulsory redundancies for excess staff/staff not fit for purpose. Increase the front line staff as a result. Remove the PS pensions, they can go private like everyone else. Increase efficiencies (leave, flexi-time etc). To do this...
- Reign in the unions. Too much power and influence. Massive obstacle but could be done by a brave government.
- Strict lending criteria for mortgages and fix the rental system in Ireland (long term tenancies, proper building control, family oriented apartments like other european countries).
- Immigration control should be extended. While I have absolutely no problem with people coming to Ireland to better themselves and contribute to the economy, we have ended up with a lot of burden on our social welfare system and the issue of 'welfare tourism'.
- Justice system revamp. Too many repeat offenders being let off with lenient/soft sentences, judges have to be brought back to this planet.

Just some of my opinions that kind of sum up my political views. There isn't a single party or group in Ireland with similar policies except for the Reform Alliance (Lucinda Creighton's group) who I am vehemently opposed to because they are 'socially conservative' i.e. pro-life/religious where I believe in complete and utter separation of religion and state.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Did you hear the interview?

I think its linked in the thread.

When someone calls for all businesses to be seized by the state & run by worker soviet councils...... Well, my label seems more than a little apt.

No, not living in Ireland (I meant the first line with the Bill O'Rilly comment).

I'd agree with you based on what you're written above - but this takes me back to my original comment: do we really want an extremist government of any sort?

endacl

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

but this takes me back to my original comment: do we really want an extremist government of any sort?

Yes. An extremely competent, ethical, decisive, and effective one.

That'd be a first.

MRnotlob606

The far left would be fantastic. more years of recession.

Spudmonkey

coolemon wrote: »

Left organisations in Ireland from what I know:

Acronym - Full name - Politics - Organisational Structure - Affiliated Organisations

1. SP - Socialist party - Trotskyist/Marxist-Leninist - Democratic Centralism - Anti-Austerity Alliance

2. SWP - Socialist Workers Party - Trotskyist/Marxist-Leninist - Democratic Centralism - People Before Profit

3. WP - The Workers Party - Stalinist/Marxist Leninist - Democratic Centralism - OIRA (Official IRA)

4. IRSP - Irish Republican Socialist Party - Irish Republican/Marxist-Leninist - Democratic Centralism - INLA (Irish National Liberation Army)

5. Eirigi - Irish Republican Socialist - Organic Centralism

6. WSM - Workers Solidarity Movement - Anarcho-syndicalist/communist (favours working within existing unions and structures)

7. Organise! - Anarcho-syndicalist/communist [/B](favours working outside union structures)

8. RNU - Republican Network For Unity - Irish Republican Socialist - structure unknown - ONH (oglaigh na heireann)

9. 32CSM - 32 County Sovereignty Movement - Irish Republican Socialist - structure unknown - Real IRA

10. Spartacist League - Trotskyist/Marxist Leninist - Democratic Centralism

11. RSF - Republican Sinn Fein - Irish Republicanism/Eire Nua - structure unknown - Continuity IRA

12. CPI - Communist Party of Ireland - Stalinist/Marxist-Leninist - Democratic Centralism

13. ISN - Irish Socialist Network - Luxembourgist/Anti-Leninist - structure unknown

14. UL - United Left - Leftist/social democratic/ socialist mix - structure unknown, but mainly informal.

There are many more but they will be more issue based than having an all-encompassing political position.

People's front of Judea

endacl

Spudmonkey wrote: »

People's front of Judea

Splitters.

:mad:

mandrake04

Dickie10 wrote: »

i was only throwing out my opinion in a hurry, not writing a novel! but u get the jist, i did say that good work ethic, and determination to succeed will be of huge benefit in london, usa, or australia, look at the strides the irish in america made in the 19th /early twentieth century.

Sean Quinn is a most admirable man, the employment he gave to the poor region of the north west was nothing short of a miracle and to do it all through pure hard work and good business acumen without any state help. id like to see some of these water meter protesters get themselves off the dole and do that, some chance.

+1

Don't apologise for posting your opinion.

My brother knows Quinn well and although I have only met him about 3 times the most recent last October I have always found him to be an excellent businessman and a gentleman. He has great support in his community because over the years he invested in those people, he made a few poor decisions but sure don't we all.

Dickie10

here here, the man who didnt make a mistake made nothing, i believe he did make a mistake and then he, like anyone else moved to protect what he had, who wouldnt do such a thing? there is still a lot of support for sean. id love to see him back on his feet trding again. personnally i would like to see the reform alliance as a party, i think they would have as good if not more support than socalists party

wp_rathead

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Hmm...good spot; a lot of these smaller parties, do tend to associate with crackpots supporting anti-fluoridation and similar woo.

Yes i researched them during the European Elections- the individual in my constituency was also pro-life which was massive Con but not sure if that part of the parties maniesfesto tbh

wp_rathead

I do worry for the people who idolise people like Quinn- same people who would go to a Jordan Belford seminar..

KomradeBishop

mandrake04 wrote: »

+1

Don't apologise for posting your opinion.

My brother knows Quinn well and although I have only met him about 3 times the most recent last October I have always found him to be an excellent businessman and a gentleman. He has great support in his community because over the years he invested in those people, he made a few poor decisions but sure don't we all.

He was fined €200,000 for an illegal breach of regulations in 2010 (the firm itself was fined €3.25 million), and he bankrupted himself by effectively gambling on Anglo shares - he owed €2.8 billion to the same bank, and now he is happy to leave the rest of Ireland to pick up his tab - he has even obstructed court orders put out to seize his assets, which landed him in jail for 9 weeks.

All through this time, the Quinn's have acted to try and preserve their wealth - at the expense of the taxpayer, who are left to pick up the €2.8 billion tab - such as by transferring assets between by Quinn-controlled companies, to a company located in Cyprus, to obstruct seizure of assets; as well as utilizing these companies, to reward their family extensive salaries and other bonuses, for doing pretty much nothing (in one case, family members were given huge sums of money, for signing a contract they didn't even understand - in Russian - not even knowing if there was any actual work set out for them).

His family even has the gall to try and get the cumulative €2.34 billion loan from Anglo written-off, by claiming Quinn took out the loan, to illegally help prop-up Anglo's share price - an argument which implies he was (obviously) complicit.


There should be no place for that kind of ethically-corrupt, unlawful and fraudulent activity in Ireland (a statement backed by regulatory fines and his jail sentence plus added obstruction of asset seizures) - Quinn is the type of person, with no care for ethics or legality (among many others with such loose 'ethics'), who helped to partially destroy our economy.

The family and their activities absolutely reek of ethical corruption - who should be under much more extensive investigation for white-collar crime; that anyone would defend them is both short-sighted (of all the problems that helped bring our economy down) and usually self-interested ("they helped create a few jobs in my local area"), at the expense of the rest of the country (who are picking up the multi-billion tab the Quinn's left behind).

Personally, I view them as only a tiny bit higher in status, than drug-peddling criminals - the kind of activity they engaged in, can (on an economy-wide scale) do far more harm than any illegal drug trading.

suicide_circus

My partner is from the former soviet block. Her country is yet to recover decades after revolution. Don't get me wrong, our current model of a free market economy with welfare state leanings is riddled with problems but I'd rather not experience whatever socialist dystopia Paul Murphy TD has planned for us. Anyway I dont even know what he'd do if he got into actual power, probably shiit himself and run away. He's come a long way from the relatively affluent south dublin private secondary school he attended the year above me.

RobertKK

Ruth Coppinger likes her Dail salary.

On Newstalk she said a working person is a person who works for a living and earns under €100,000.
Though I think she protests for a living.

When asked if a person on €95,000 could be classed as working class, she said yes.

mariaalice

I am only partly the wiser about what sort of society the far left want.

I would like issues like zero hours contract sorted out they should be banned, I believe in good conditions of employment, having a minimum wage and so on along with the system we have i.e a business model based on profit and that means that some will be earning 200k and some will be earning 20k I have no problem with that. I want good public services and a good welfare system.

endacl

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There are loads..... Way more than on the far right.

Eirigi
The Communist Party
Fís Nua (kind of)
AAA/SP
PBP
Workers Party
Shinners (depending on populist mood at the given moment)
United Left

Surely most of those are 'hard of thinking' as opposed to 'hard left' though?

BoatMad

diomed wrote: »

• Create jobs for everyone, with everyone paid about the same.
• Eliminate profits, because they go to capitalists, by paying a decent wage.
• Remove tax from the ordinary working man, and "tax the rich".
• Tax the wealthy so they have nothing left to invest, and businesses close.

yes comrade stalin,

BoatMad

.... I want good public services and a good welfare system

Then you and everyone else is going to have to pay more tax. thats not popular at the moment

BoatMad

mandrake04 wrote: »

+1

Don't apologise for posting your opinion.

My brother knows Quinn well and although I have only met him about 3 times the most recent last October I have always found him to be an excellent businessman and a gentleman. He has great support in his community because over the years he invested in those people, he made a few poor decisions but sure don't we all.

He may be a grand fellow, but he took an extreme gamble and lost his shirt , end of story. I have no sympathy.

mariaalice

BoatMad wrote: »

Then you and everyone else is going to have to pay more tax. thats not popular at the moment

I would not mind paying more taxes if for example in return we had an NHS style health services with free at point of accesses Doctors and Dentists.

BoatMad

mariaalice wrote: »

I would not mind paying more taxes if for example in return we had an NHS style health services with free at point of accesses Doctors and Dentists.

Indeed, of course everyone has there own ideas of what they want from their taxes, taken all together they actually don't add up.

I don't think theres any appetite for more taxes at the moment , do you think there is ?

mariaalice

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed, of course everyone has there own ideas of what they want from their taxes, taken all together they actually don't add up.

I don't think theres any appetite for more taxes at the moment , do you think there is ?

No of course not but the message is put across badly a lot of the time, it should be possible in some simple way for the government ( who ever they are ) to say the choice is 2% extra in PAYE taxs and for that we can provide free at point of accesses health care and subsidised child care its your ( the peoples choice )

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mandrake04 wrote: »

+1

Don't apologise for posting your opinion.

My brother knows Quinn well and although I have only met him about 3 times the most recent last October I have always found him to be an excellent businessman and a gentleman. He has great support in his community because over the years he invested in those people, he made a few poor decisions but sure don't we all.

We don't all make bad decisions that effect millions of people, for an entire nation to mortgage their future and then run away and hide from them.

A good businessman wouldn't be in his situation. A gentleman would stand up, be honest and accept the consequences. If we expect the later from 6-year olds, I don;t shee why he shouldn't expect it of a grown adult.

BoatMad

mariaalice wrote: »

No of course not but the message is put across badly a lot of the time, it should be possible in some simple way for the government ( who ever they are ) to say the choice is 2% extra in PAYE taxs and for that we can provide free at point of accesses health care and subsidised child care its your ( the peoples choice )

I have yet to see an election poster that suggests raising taxes, even from our leftists friends.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That;s what I thought.

But in order to answer the OP's question - "what do the hard left want in Irish politics?" we really need some hard left political supporters in here. Saying that they want to destroy capitalism or have everyone on the same wage, tax the wealthy to the point at which business is forced to close, etc, etc, is merely commentary (with some inaaccuracies) unless backed up by a link, a manifesto or some sort of direct comment.

I'd like it answered too - don't get me wrong - but I want the question that was posed, answered by hard left supports making points. Not the question interpreted by an anti-left propogandist making assumptions.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

brevity

redfacedbear wrote: »

In this interview with Sean Moncrieff the Socialist Party TD Ruth Coppinger outlines how she sees a socialist Ireland operating (about 8 minutes in).

It's proper old school Soviet stuff - workers committees running businesses, nationalisation of any industry of substance, taxing 'wealth' etc.

She does at least acknowledge that it would be impossible to implement in isolation but it is barmy all the same.

Holy hell, that's fairytale stuff! Russia in 1918 a beacon of light?!?

Was laughing at Moncrieff's interview technique though. It was like speaking with a toddler who has just drawn a strange picture.

neil_hosey

i never understood the "tax the rich, cas that makes it fair" argument..

The "rich" already pay a shed load of tax, and should be entitled to the same public services as everyone else, for the same price. Just because someone done well for themselves, doesnt mean we should penalize them. It a begrudgery thing, and its pretty narrowminded.. hence why I won't be voting sinn féin again, or any hard left whatevers ever.

We should be encouraging enterprise by trying to make a tax system fair, so the rich (ie people who have broke their bollox and/or lucked out) can create more jobs.


(im not rich btw..)

ThunbergsAreGo

neil_hosey wrote: »

i never understood the "tax the rich, cas that makes it fair" argument..

The "rich" already pay a shed load of tax, and should be entitled to the same public services as everyone else, for the same price. Just because someone done well for themselves, doesnt mean we should penalize them. It a begrudgery thing, and its pretty narrowminded.. hence why I won't be voting sinn féin again, or any hard left whatevers ever.

We should be encouraging enterprise by trying to make a tax system fair, so the rich (ie people who have broke their bollox and/or lucked out) can create more jobs.


(im not rich btw..)

That sums up pretty much how I feel about it as well.

It feels like if the left were in power i would have no need to push myself or better myself to progress in life and thus earn more to provide for my family.

"Tax the Rich" always strikes me as a ridiculously populist line which gets trotted out again and again