Question about Intercity City Gold 4100

r3nu4l

I'm sitting on this heap of junk in Heuston Station. Its going to Cork. Surrounding us on other platforms are the much more modern locomotives.

Why oh why does the Cork route have to suffer this train? Every damn week at 18:00 I'm greeted by the same bloody engine.

My principal complaint is that plug sockets on this train are very few and far between. Any idea why this engine has been on this run for the last month or so? Previous to this the more modern engines were being used. I feel like I'm gone back to the 1980s

SpaceTime

It was designed a few years before the 22000 trains and probably didn't take laptop usage into the brief.

They're still very recent and very modern trains.

They really should be retrofitted with sockets. Complain to Irish Rail as they need the feedback!

Twitter or Facebook complaints get more publicity!

By "engines" do you mean train?

Locomotives and engines are just the thing that pulls/pushes a train. The later ones have multiple engines under every coach where as the Mark 4 train is done the traditional way and either pushed or pulled by an engine / locomotive attached to one end. There aren't any engines under the coaches.

r3nu4l

Thanks. I learned more about trains/engines/locomotive terminology today than I have in the last four decades I should have realised how important the differentiation would be to enthusiasts.

Good idea re complaints. Will do so. Every bloody week now I've been on this heap and am sick of it. Let another route take the heap for a few weeks...its about as welcome as a fart in a lift!

SpaceTime

It's not even enthusiasts, I certainly wouldn't describe myself as one!

It's just they're two different things. One's a 'coach' the thing you sit in and the other is an 'engine' or 'locomotive' the big thing with the engine in it that pushes or pulls the train along (you can't sit in that bit).

The new ones are actually slightly noisier as there's an engine under the floor, more like the way bus works.

The lack of sockets on the Cork-Dublin Mark 4 trains is beyond a joke at this stage though. There's no technical reason why they couldn't just retrofit them, it's done all the time in England and elsewhere on much older trains with far more complicated electrical issues.

Urethra Franklin

Each to their own, they're much much quieter than the newer ICRs (which have underfloor engines as opposed to one big one at the far end) the seats are much more comfortable and the carriage is more roomy in general. Tinted windows and most toilets being large ones are another plus!

Judgement Day

Send the Mark IVs to the Rosslare line where they would be very welcome!

SpaceTime

How hard can retrofitting sockets be anyway?

I've seen it done in the UK and France with just a tubular duct mounted across the top of that big air conditioner duct at the side of the seats.

I think Irish Rail completely overspec's the sockets too. In most countries they're limited to 3amps each (more than adequate for laptops and mobiles) and probably all just on a single circuit down the coach

Irish Rail seem to have over complicated, expensive RCD sockets at every seat.

r3nu4l

Each to their own indeed. I find the seats on these carriages far less comfortable than on the newer models. Hadn't noticed the noise.

Judgement day...I will ask them to put this engine and carriage system on the Rosslare line. Interestingly just heard a Cork woman complaining about the lack of sockets! I'm not alone

Terrontress

Give me a loco hauled train any day! The engine sound and vibration in a DMU is worse than not having a plug!

SpaceTime

The 22000s are actually very quiet compared to most DMUs that I've been on in Britain and they're just not even comparable till commuter DMUs

The MK4 seats are pretty bad to be honest. They're certainly not comfortable for a 2h40min journey. They are lousy seats compared to the 22000s or the MK3

Captain Chaos

Terrontress wrote: »

Give me a loco hauled train any day! The engine sound and vibration in a DMU is worse than not having a plug!

I'd take an ICR of a Mk4 any day but in saying that I'd take a Mk3 over an ICR. The ICRs are the closest thing you are going to to a Mk3 unless you are on Enterprsie stock.

The CAF Mk4s were just a bad buy all round. I wonder what BREL Mk4s would have been like over here if they still made them.

LXFlyer

I'd have to say that the distinction between a train and an engine is a fairly obvious one and isn't something specific to rail enthusiasts, but there you go!

I think that Irish Rail are well aware of the lack of plug sockets in the Mark 4 sets at this stage, and complaining to them about it really is a bit pointless at the moment. They are going to need money to retrofit them and that is something that at the moment they don't have.

So at the moment the plug sockets on the Mark 4 sets are restricted to each seat in first class (Citygold), and behind seats 05 and 06 in every standard class coach.

For the OP, the Mark 4 sets operate the following trains if you wish to avoid them:

Monday/Saturday:
From Dublin: 07:00, 12:00 (Fri/Sat only), 13:00, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00, 21:00

From Cork: 06:00, 07:00, 09:20, 10:20, 15:20 (Fri/Sat only), 16:20, 20:20

Sundays:
From Dublin: 10:00, 12:00, 14:00, 16:00, 17:00, 19:00, 21:00

From Cork: 08:20, 10:20, 12:20, 13:20, 15:20, 17:20, 19:20

SpaceTime

They'd have been vastly over over specified for 90-100 mph services.
The CAF intercity coaches are an impressive visual design but they're not quite right.

The 22000 DMUs feel much more like a finished product than a prototype like the mk4

I think the issue is Irish Rail went out looking for a weird one off designed for a product that nobody else buys : diesel hauled intercity trains.

The Enterprise is similarly weird and problematical in other areas.

corktina

They had to buy loco hauled coaches to cover their decision to buy so many 201s...face saving exercise

Captain Chaos

SpaceTime wrote: »

They'd have been vastly over over specified for 90-100 mph services.
The CAF intercity coaches are an impressive visual design but they're not quite right.

The Enterprise is similarly weird and problematical in other areas.

The CAF Mk4s are over speced for what they are used as they were intended to be around for about 30 years with 125mph operations in mind when new faster locos or a power car at each end would be purchased in future but it's not going to happen now.

The Enterprise problems were an IE spec problem with the stock and the 201s. It would not have any issues if they ordered DVGTs like the CAF Mk4s for it. That an a few computer problems with the 201s not talking to the stock properly when releasing the parking brakes.

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

They had to buy loco hauled coaches to cover their decision to buy so many 201s...face saving exercise

Not really, loco hauled stock is superior, comfort wise to multiple units and that's why premium services have loco hauled stock still. Cork and Belfast services are seen as the premium lines.

corktina

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not really, loco hauled stock is superior, comfort wise to multiple units and that's why premium services have loco hauled stock still. Cork and Belfast services are seen as the premium lines.

Not so, they could simply have bought power cars for the Mk3s.....they couldn't do that as they would be losing face for buying all the 201s

201s are not suitable for haulage of this type

BeardySi

corktina wrote: »

201s are not suitable for haulage of this type

I've often wondered what they are suitable for....

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

Not so, they could simply have bought power cars for the Mk3s.....they couldn't do that as they would be losing face for buying all the 201s

201s are not suitable for haulage of this type

Why buy power cars for coaches would need refurb very shortly to be brought up to modern standards and re wired to be modified for push pull top and tail operation and can only be used with Mk3 stock. Plus the Mk3s are only rated to 100mph on IE same design top speed of the 201s.

201s were needed when they were bought for 100mph Mk3 operations and push pull work and hauling 1000 ton cement trains to Cork at 50mph all the way. There were not enough 071s to do all that and work taras.

corktina

Mk3s are 125 mph rated (or at least that's how they were designed.

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

Mk3s are 125 mph rated (or at least that's how they were designed.

In the UK yes, but not in Ireland. We don't have the track or signaling blocks for 125mph operations.

SpaceTime

corktina wrote: »

Mk3s are 125 mph rated (or at least that's how they were designed.

The MK4 is actually rated for 200km/h service, it just requires the brakes to be modified slightly but they're designed for use at that speed. The plan was to allow them to be upgraded with new power cars, but that's possibly never going to happen now due to the economic situation and restricted budgets. Although, Cork-Dublin at 200km/h might actually make more money.

I'm not sure that the MK3s could be just hauled at 200km/h. I think I remember reading somewhere that they were only rated for 160km/h when hauled and 200km/h when in the British HST configuration with a power car at either end. It may have something to do with braking or safety not sure exactly what the rational was.

CIE only bought the trailers really, they didn't buy he whole system. Same with the Enterprise, I'm not sure why they didn't just buy a full train from the supplier instead of pairing up that messy system.

I'm not sure if the existing Enterprise fleet could be upgraded to 200km/h, although it would seem likely if they could just fit new bogies that were more capable. The coach bodies are lifted from the Eurostar trailer design, so they should be pretty robust.

techdiver

One question I have for the knowledgeable folk here is regarding the Dublin - Sligo line specifically from Maynooth - Connolly.

Compared to The Heuston commuter line the Maynooth to Connolly line is painfully slow. I commute from the Midlands and the journey from Mullingar to Connolly takes over 1hr 20 minutes! Is it a signalling problem? Are the tracks that bad that they cannot take higher speed trains?

LXFlyer

The line speed between Dublin and Mullingar is 70mph as far as Maynooth and 75mph thereafter, although there are lower speed limits along certain sections, notably 30mph from Connolly until past Liffey Junction.

The line is never going to able to facilitate higher speeds due principally to the curvature of the track, built as it is along the Royal Canal. It's not a case that the track is "that bad", it's just where the line is!

Sligo services between Maynooth and Connolly have to fit around commuter services as well which does impact on speeds.

Captain Chaos

The amount of level crossings and signaling involved don't help speeds much through that section either.

techdiver

lxflyer wrote: »

The line speed between Dublin and Mullingar is 70mph as far as Maynooth and 75mph thereafter, although there are lower speed limits along certain sections, notably 30mph from Connolly until past Liffey Junction.

The line is never going to able to facilitate higher speeds due principally to the curvature of the track, built as it is along the Royal Canal. It's not a case that the track is "that bad", it's just where the line is!

Sligo services between Maynooth and Connolly have to fit around commuter services as well which does impact on speeds.

That may be the theoretical speed, but in practice it never goes this speed. For example, in the morning, the 8.09am from Maynooth to Connolly (with only one stop at Druncomdra) takes 38 minutes to travel roughly 30km. That is roughly 47kmph (29mph) on average!

end of the road

Treadhead wrote: »

I've often wondered what they are suitable for....

they are technically a freight loco, part of the EMD 66 series, however the 201s were built for mixed traffic duties. hope that helps

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

In the UK yes, but not in Ireland. We don't have the track or signaling blocks for 125mph operations.

and probably never will, at least not in my lifetime

end of the road

techdiver wrote: »

That may be the theoretical speed, but in practice it never goes this speed. For example, in the morning, the 8.09am from Maynooth to Connolly (with only one stop at Druncomdra) takes 38 minutes to travel roughly 30km. That is roughly 47kmph (29mph) on average!

probably to do with the fact that the stopping dart and commuter services get priority. i get the idea as to why that is but its no longer workable, and i think if a full re-do of the timetables were done giving the services which stop less priority over stopping services could be done without impacting anyone and making journey times and speeds a bit better. not going to happen though

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

Send the Mark IVs to the Rosslare line where they would be very welcome!

yes please. we'd gladly take the "heap" . more chance of the whole network being shut and ripped up then that happening, and the mark 4s aren't and never will be cleared.

corktina

Captain Chaos wrote: »

In the UK yes, but not in Ireland. We don't have the track or signaling blocks for 125mph operations.

that doesn't make them unsuitable for 125 operations though. It's not the fault of the coaches , it's the track and signals yes, but above all it's IEs decision to stick the 201s on them, an effort to save face having bought too many of them.

Judgement Day

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm sitting on this heap of junk in Heuston Station. Its going to Cork. Surrounding us on other platforms are the much more modern locomotives.

Why oh why does the Cork route have to suffer this train? Every damn week at 18:00 I'm greeted by the same bloody engine.

My principal complaint is that plug sockets on this train are very few and far between. Any idea why this engine has been on this run for the last month or so? Previous to this the more modern engines were being used. I feel like I'm gone back to the 1980s

Now see what you started.

Vic_08

SpaceTime wrote: »

The MK4 is actually rated for 200km/h service, it just requires the brakes to be modified slightly but they're designed for use at that speed. The plan was to allow them to be upgraded with new power cars, but that's possibly never going to happen now due to the economic situation and restricted budgets. Although, Cork-Dublin at 200km/h might actually make more money.

I'm not sure that the MK3s could be just hauled at 200km/h. I think I remember reading somewhere that they were only rated for 160km/h when hauled and 200km/h when in the British HST configuration with a power car at either end. It may have something to do with braking or safety not sure exactly what the rational was.

CIE only bought the trailers really, they didn't buy he whole system. Same with the Enterprise, I'm not sure why they didn't just buy a full train from the supplier instead of pairing up that messy system.

There was no "whole system" to buy. HST power car production had ceased when the CIE Mk3 order was placed and they did not have the requirement or money to buy full high speed train sets.

This revisionist history view that they were somehow a poor buy is nonsense, at the time they were desperately needed to rid the network of the ancient and unsafe collection of wooden framed stock that was still in use. There was no urgent requirement at the time for extra motive power as the GM units and re-engined 001 class were performing exceptionally well.

All UK Mk3 coaches are capable of 125mph, the initial builds were as HST sets designed for 125mph service speeds and holder of diesel speed records since 1973 at over 140mph. The UK LHCS coaches were nominally rated for 110mph due to there being no locos available for faster operation and their intended route also being restricted to 110. Minor alterations are needed to increase that but many have been subsequently modified to be added to HST consists running at 125.

http://www.porterbrook.com/downloads/brochures/Mk3%20Brochure.pdf

Had it ever been required the IE Mk3s would have been easily capable of 125mph operation with or without top and tailing or push-pull. Indeed just as they had superior ride qualities up to 100mph over the CAF Mk4 they would no doubt have been superior at higher speeds also.

corktina

UK Mk4 coaches are rated at 140mph(225 kmph as are the class 92 locos iirc. Class 89 was a 125 mph loco

r3nu4l

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd have to say that the distinction between a train and an engine is a fairly obvious one and isn't something specific to rail enthusiasts, but there you go!

Yeah but an enthusiast would pick up on the difference in a conversation, most people wouldn't bother to try and distinguish

For the OP, the Mark 4 sets operate the following trains if you wish to avoid them:

Monday/Saturday:
From Dublin: 07:00, 12:00 (Fri/Sat only), 13:00, 17:00, 18:00, 19:00, 21:00

From Cork: 06:00, 07:00, 09:20, 10:20, 15:20 (Fri/Sat only), 16:20, 20:20

Sundays:
From Dublin: 10:00, 12:00, 14:00, 16:00, 17:00, 19:00, 21:00

From Cork: 08:20, 10:20, 12:20, 13:20, 15:20, 17:20, 19:20

Thanks for this info, sincerely. Unfortunately my timetable means I can't avoid them. Why are they on the Cork line in the first place? Why not on a shorter route where a low phone or laptop battery is less important? I do try to have my battery charged for the journey but its not always possible.

Also, this train has been at Heuston on Fridays too, not just Monday and Saturdays. So frustrating. Can they not shift these dinosaurs to another less important route? I may just go back to the car from now on if this continues much longer. I will contact IE today

GM228

r3nu4l wrote: »

Yeah but an enthusiast would pick up on the difference in a conversation, most people wouldn't bother to try and distinguish



Thanks for this info, sincerely. Unfortunately my timetable means I can't avoid them. Why are they on the Cork line in the first place? Why not on a shorter route where a low phone or laptop battery is less important? I do try to have my battery charged for the journey but its not always possible.

Also, this train has been at Heuston on Fridays too, not just Monday and Saturdays. So frustrating. Can they not shift these dinosaurs to another less important route? I may just go back to the car from now on if this continues much longer. I will contact IE today

Monday to Saturday not Monday and Saturday!

The MkIVs were built specifically for the Cork line and unfortunately there is nothing to replace them at the moment!

To be fair IE are well aware of ride quality issues and actually coupled a MkIV to a MkIII a few years back with test equipment in both sets to evaluate ride quality with CAF engineers involved, IE have tried improving the quality and I've heard court cases between IE and CAF mentioned (can't confirm if that's true). IE just got a bad build and are stuck with them!

GM228

flyingsnail

r3nu4l wrote: »

Yeah but an enthusiast would pick up on the difference in a conversation, most people wouldn't bother to try and distinguish



Thanks for this info, sincerely. Unfortunately my timetable means I can't avoid them. Why are they on the Cork line in the first place? Why not on a shorter route where a low phone or laptop battery is less important? I do try to have my battery charged for the journey but its not always possible.

Also, this train has been at Heuston on Fridays too, not just Monday and Saturdays. So frustrating. Can they not shift these dinosaurs to another less important route? I may just go back to the car from now on if this continues much longer. I will contact IE today

By Monday / Saturday he means Monday to Saturday.

SpaceTime

They're actually a bigger train than the newer ones and have CityGold and full food service.

That's the main advantage.

I don't understand what the issue with sockets is tbh.

They've two HUGE diesel generators in the pointy end and use normal 230V/400V 50Hz power exactly the same as you'd find in a building so retrofitting sockets is simple. I suspect you would just run a neat metal duct along the top of or inside that big round duct up the sides of each carriage.

It's just wiring and I'm sure CAF or someone else must have an off-the-shelf solution for fitting them.

It was a stupid attempt to tier the train into business class and pleb class though. They're fully available in the CityGold coach at every table.

The issue now is they're expected by everyone at every table.

The CAF and De Dietrich coaches should be wired up for sockets at every seat. Surely some fleet company could even do the two small fleets as a single job?

The technical challenges would be very similar and I'm sure France's SNCF or someone else has similar coaches to the De Dietrichs that have been retrofitted with sockets.

Only difference is we use slightly different sockets but the wiring issues and technicalities are identical.

For example:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KJy1UNyh22k/UZ3vzuaM5nI/AAAAAAAAARk/nDzQ21fJFWg/s1600/photo3.JPG

As you can see from this Irish / British sockets aren't that huge compared to the de facto EU standard CEE 7 system (same plugs fit not French and German types)

Left to right : Irish/British, French/Belgian (CEE7/5), Swiss and Schuko (CEE7/4) used in most of Europe.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/FsBDxQYfRS1GOkPskd_wI6hJHXGx7bE2o7FkjbKeOChq4OFV9D2PbmCreZUwp4PnRQrqp0T-HcH_ceEG86cwzZmNs6t6zoo0YTI=w384-h177-nc

LXFlyer

r3nu4l wrote: »

Yeah but an enthusiast would pick up on the difference in a conversation, most people wouldn't bother to try and distinguish

Thanks for this info, sincerely. Unfortunately my timetable means I can't avoid them. Why are they on the Cork line in the first place? Why not on a shorter route where a low phone or laptop battery is less important? I do try to have my battery charged for the journey but its not always possible.

Also, this train has been at Heuston on Fridays too, not just Monday and Saturdays. So frustrating. Can they not shift these dinosaurs to another less important route? I may just go back to the car from now on if this continues much longer. I will contact IE today

I'd beg to differ on the "engine" -v- "train" - that's a rather basic and obvious difference, but there you go!

As others have pointed out, the first list of trains is Monday "to" Saturday, not Monday "and" Saturday.

These trains were specifically bought for Dublin to Cork services and fitted with first class and a full galley for serving meals. They are not "dinosaurs" - they are only 9 years old. They just were ordered prior to the explosion of personal laptops etc and the need for plug sockets.

They are not going to be withdrawn or redeployed anywhere else. In fact the likelihood is more services on Dublin-Cork will revert to being operated by them as the more recently purchased railcars are redeployed elsewhere.

Irish Rail are fully aware about the issue of a lack of sockets, but the fact is that they do not have the cash resources available to do a retrofit at the moment.

Consequently, I don't see much point in you writing in and complaining, as at the moment there is nothing they can do.

Frankly if you don't like them that much, then perhaps you should switch to driving.

dregin

SpaceTime wrote: »

How hard can retrofitting sockets be anyway?

I've seen it done in the UK and France with just a tubular duct mounted across the top of that big air conditioner duct at the side of the seats.

I think Irish Rail completely overspec's the sockets too. In most countries they're limited to 3amps each (more than adequate for laptops and mobiles) and probably all just on a single circuit down the coach

Irish Rail seem to have over complicated, expensive RCD sockets at every seat.

Sure didn't the Web Summit crowd manage to kit out the RPSI carriages with wifi and power points for just one trip

corktina

It's my belief those sockets were intended for use by the cleaners, but how much could it cost to run trunking along the coach and a few more sockets? (I mean at normal prices, not the sort of price IE would claim it would cost)

I'm amazed to hear you advocating driving btw!

end of the road

r3nu4l wrote: »

Yeah but an enthusiast would pick up on the difference in a conversation, most people wouldn't bother to try and distinguish



Thanks for this info, sincerely. Unfortunately my timetable means I can't avoid them. Why are they on the Cork line in the first place? Why not on a shorter route where a low phone or laptop battery is less important? I do try to have my battery charged for the journey but its not always possible.

Also, this train has been at Heuston on Fridays too, not just Monday and Saturdays. So frustrating. Can they not shift these dinosaurs to another less important route? I may just go back to the car from now on if this continues much longer. I will contact IE today

with the greatist of respect 7/8 year old trains are not "dinosaurs"

roundymac

These were state of the art trains when they were intoduced. As the man say's it was spot the person with a lap top back then, now it's spot the person without.

SpaceTime

They were introduced in 2006 not 1996.
99% were carrying mobiles and there were lots of laptops by then.

Problem is most likely that the design happened in the late 90s or early 00s.

Things like in seat audio in city gold is daft too.

L1011

SpaceTime wrote: »

They were introduced in 2006 not 1996.
99% were carrying mobiles and there were lots of laptops by then.

Mainly ones with decent battery life, not half-day smartphones though.

SpaceTime

L1011 wrote: »

Mainly ones with decent battery life, not half-day smartphones though.

I had an iPhone in 2007 and I was carrying a MacBook around in 2006.

I think I had some unusable Nokia smartphone with bad battery life in 06

L1011

SpaceTime wrote: »

I had an iPhone in 2007 and I was carrying a MacBook around in 2006.

I think I had some unusable Nokia smartphone with bad battery life in 06

A 2007 iPhone wasnt a smartphone (didn't meet the description until it got app support - it was a fairly low featured feature-phone at first)

They were also incredibly rare.

The trains were specced and ordered some time earlier too

LXFlyer

The trains would have been specc'd in 2002 or so, and laptop usage was nothing like what it has since become.

In those days Nokia were the mobile kings and the need to recharge was minimal.

They first entered service in 2005 (not 2007 as other encyclopaedic sites suggest).

Times changed very rapidly - it's just unfortunate that the trains were ordered when they were.

flyingsnail

lxflyer wrote: »

The trains would have been specc'd in 2002 or so, and laptop usage was nothing like what it has since become.

In those days Nokia were the mobile kings and the need to recharge was minimal.

They first entered service in 2005 (not 2007 as other encyclopaedic sites suggest).

Times changed very rapidly - it's just unfortunate that the trains were ordered when they were.

Invitation to tender went out in 2001 and was awarded in November 2002 with delivery starting June 2005. Passenger service started in May 2006

Cookie_Monster

so where does "intercity city gold 4100" come from in the OP?

I thought this was the old MK3 first class, rather than MK4, no?

Losty Dublin

flyingsnail wrote: »

Invitation to tender went out in 2001 and was awarded in November 2002 with delivery starting June 2005. Passenger service started in May 2006

The specs for the Mark 4 sets were initially written up as far back as 1998!