Belmond Grand Hibernian

end of the road

Cravens wrote: »

Without wishing to cause any upset, if something's not done with it soon it may have to be on its way to Hamill's.

i would imagine that is where it is heading anyway? probably haven't got around to getting it there yet?

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just looking in the photo thread of the picture taken in Northwall just days ago and there is a Mk3 in the area where they were stored before they were shipped off to Scotland for the Belmond refit. It's my understanding that all 10 Belmond Mk3s have been and are all back in Belfast for their interior fittout.

Anyone any idea what the last Mk3 coach is, or who it's going to?

It's Belmonds 7122, never made it to Scotland and retained for spares at the moment but maybe converted as a spare for the main set in the future.

MrMorooka

I found some recent shots of the refurbished units here https://its.smugmug.com/Travel/2016-Photos/Ireland-June-2016/i-GTCjHRn

Del.Monte

I still find it incredible that IE couldn't have revamped these carriages but a private concern can.

Captain Chaos

Nice, I was expecting a bit more detail in the livery with some lining in gold perhaps but I suppose less is more as they say.

GM228

The carriages will be delivered to North Wall for onward movement to Inchicore over the next 3 weeks with 7601 delivered today.

With services due to start in less than 6 weeks there isn't much time for testing/commissioning, staff training and clearance to Portrush.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

I still find it incredible that IE couldn't have revamped these carriages but a private concern can.

ah come on now, don't you know that, but but shur begod "new trains begorra and all the issues will go away"

Captain Chaos

GM228 wrote: »

The carriages will be delivered to North Wall for onward movement to Inchicore over the next 3 weeks with 7601 delivered today.

With services due to start in less than 6 weeks there isn't much time for testing/commissioning, staff training and clearance to Portrush.

216 has to make a trip or two North as part of it's tests. Would have thought they let it collect the Mk3s from Belfast instead of lowloading all 10 to Northwall.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

216 has to make a trip or two North as part of it's tests. Would have thought they let it collect the Mk3s from Belfast instead of lowloading all 10 to Northwall.

Commissioning and testing of the carriages will be undertaken by IE so makes sense to bring them to Dublin as they arn't allowed onto the mainline until issued with fit to run certificates.

I'm told approval has been given for 216 to be fitted with the MMI system for use with the Enterprise during off peak but not sure if it will be fitted before or after this season, it should do a test run to Belfast soon and also clearance trials to Portrush I'm told with the MkIIIs.

yachtsman

Low loading carriages from Belfast to Dublin is akin to Ryanair bringing in their new fleet by ship from Boeing in the US. Sends all the wrong messages about rail capacity. Could the fleet not be certified in NI? Rhetoric question!
IE opt for road transport over rail. What's new?

Jamie2k9

yachtsman wrote: »

Low loading carriages from Belfast to Dublin is akin to Ryanair bringing in their new fleet by ship from Boeing in the US. Sends all the wrong messages about rail capacity. Could the fleet not be certified in NI? Rhetoric question!
IE opt for road transport over rail. What's new?

What an over reaction!

IE were tasked with the job and it should be done in Dublin and I'm sure Irish regulators will be watching as well and I don't see them traveling to another state to oversee such work. These trains have never been together in one unit so running it from Belfast to Dublin together is impossible and doing single loco and coach is not economical.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What an over reaction!

IE were tasked with the job and it should be done in Dublin and I'm sure Irish regulators will be watching as well and I don't see them traveling to another state to oversee such work. These trains have never been together in one unit so running it from Belfast to Dublin together is impossible and doing single loco and coach is not economical.

it's not an over reaction though. his sentiment is correct.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

and doing single loco and coach is not economical.

That's never stopped IE before with the Enterprise stock. They sent a 201 and EGV to Limerick junction just to turn the van before sending it to York Road. The EGV could have been turned at GVS on the way to York Road instead of taking a detour to Limerick and back.

They have hauled single coaches between Connolly and York Road many, many times. 8208 took a single refurb EGV that messed up in Connolly and brought it back to Belfast on it's own in January this year.

That fact is that NIR cannot certify the Mk3s and under NIR rules the Mk3s cannot run on their network until they are certified.

LXFlyer

yachtsman wrote: »

Low loading carriages from Belfast to Dublin is akin to Ryanair bringing in their new fleet by ship from Boeing in the US. Sends all the wrong messages about rail capacity. Could the fleet not be certified in NI? Rhetoric question!
IE opt for road transport over rail. What's new?

Rail vehicles are regularly shipped by road in Britain from their home depots to different locations for refurbishment works.

Absolutely nothing unusual in that.

VincePP

GM228 wrote: »

The carriages will be delivered to North Wall for onward movement to Inchicore over the next 3 weeks with 7601 delivered today.

With services due to start in less than 6 weeks there isn't much time for testing/commissioning, staff training and clearance to Portrush.

Staff training has been taking place in Scotland - the first part finished last week. Most have experience in premium hospitality already.

More Irish based training next week.

From what I've heard a lot of dates are booked out. Season finishes in October and starts again in March.

GM228

VincePP wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

The carriages will be delivered to North Wall for onward movement to Inchicore over the next 3 weeks with 7601 delivered today.

With services due to start in less than 6 weeks there isn't much time for testing/commissioning, staff training and clearance to Portrush.

Staff training has been taking place in Scotland - the first part finished last week. Most have experience in premium hospitality already.

More Irish based training next week.

From what I've heard a lot of dates are booked out. Season finishes in October and starts again in March.

IE and NIR staff training I'm talking about.

Yes train is 85% booked out.

"Wexford" dining car (7169) is now at Inchicore with 7601.

2017 season starts in April.

Captain Chaos

Are the Mk3s going to be ling idle in the Heuston VP for 6 months of the year or are they going to be made available for charters using just the standard coaches and observation car?

savagethegoat

GM228 wrote: »

IE and NIR staff training I'm talking about.

Yes train is 85% booked out.

"Wexford" dining car (7169) is now at Inchicore with 7601.

2017 season starts in April.

I'd expect bookings to be good when they can tap into the database of UK passengers and "you've done Scotland, now do Ireland" . It will be very popular and a welcome addition to our rather dreary railways.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Are the Mk3s going to be ling idle in the Heuston VP for 6 months of the year or are they going to be made available for charters using just the standard coaches and observation car?

Heavy maintenance and deep clean will be performed off season at Heuston VP and Inchicore, it's uncertain but I'd imagine Belmond will make the set available for private hire/charter use off season as they regularly do so with their Pullman and Northern Belle sets in the UK and just like the RPSI do with their set.

No point having the set idle for 5 months of the year if it can make money for them.

GM228

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd expect bookings to be good when they can tap into the database of UK passengers and "you've done Scotland, now do Ireland" . It will be very popular and a welcome addition to our rather dreary railways.

Most bookings so far are from previous Belmond customers from the US, UK, France, Germany and Australia according to the media.

savagethegoat

Yes, no doubt the bulk of them will have sampled the UK operations.

All the advantages of a cruise without going to sea

GM228

Have just been told that a spanner has been thrown into the works regarding the Portrush leg of the tour as despite agreement between Belmond and NIR last year that apparently NIR have just realised the train is about 50m too long to be run around in Portrush and even if that is overcome the RSSB may not permit it's operation past Belfast.

Apparently 3 options are being considered:-

• 1. A second loco to be available to shunt release the train at Portrush.
• 2. Terminate at Coleraine.
• 3. Terminate at Belfast.

The run around isn't the only problem though, the train was originally planned to stop at Portrush under grandfather rights but apparently the RSSB is saying that grandfather rights don't apply as the MkIIIs were never cleared to Portrush in the first place so it looks like option 3 may be the only option as it also won't fit on Coleraine platform.

The train hasn't even started yet and already a major stumbling block has been encountered.

ClovenHoof

What does "Grandfather Rights" mean regarding railways?

metrovick001

Wow - d'unbelievables would probably run a better railway! :-)

flyingsnail

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What does "Grandfather Rights" mean regarding railways?

Basically it means the rule does not apply to something that was there before the rule was brought in.

tabbey

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What does "Grandfather Rights" mean regarding railways?

It means that practices which have become normal over the years are allowed by the Safety regulator, but trying something new to the location may be forbidden.

In this instance if Mk III coaches had a history of running to Portrush, the authorities could not as a general rule stop them, but if they never were approved to run there, the authorities reserve the right to prohibit their introduction for some reason, good or not so good.

goingnowhere

The first Mk3 got to Portrush in 1985. So it meets the basic 'been there before date xxxx' requirement.

But the grandfather rights game is about showing a historical practice while now not allowed had taken place safely as a routine operational procedure, i.e. stopping at short platform, reverse out/in to Killarney etc

A Mk3 never operated in scheduled commercial service to Portrush, or indeed anywhere north of Belfast, so fails the test.

The Mk3 is accepted by NIR and permitted subject to the renewal of gauge clearance provided the train run fits in all .

The Belmond folks were told to acquire a Mk3pp control car to avoid shunting hassles but alas they didn't buy one.

end of the road

didn't the 450 class not operate that line? i know they were a railcar rather then loco and coaches (well, yeah) but they were mark 3 body shells. what if they took off the sleeping cars and took the rest on the belfast portrush leg of the journey would that not be an option? all though i suppose stabling the sleeping cars might be a problem?

roundymac

Is this someone trying ti justify their existance or is there a genuine reason why they can't run to Portrush. Will someone's life be at risk if this were to happen. Surely they knew well in advance that there was going to be a problem, if such a problem were to exist, why wait until to now to raise the issue?

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

The first Mk3 got to Portrush in 1985.

Are you sure about that?

I remember the MkIII NIR gauging trials in the 80s, but they didn't actually use a MKIII oddly enough!

NIR used a flat wagon with a wooden frame simulating the MkIII body shape. I don't know if the trials were ever photographed?

MkIIIs have worked past Belfast, to Bangor, but not sure if an actual MkIII went anywhere else past York Road.

Vic_08

end of the road wrote: »

didn't the 450 class not operate that line? i know they were a railcar rather then loco and coaches (well, yeah) but they were mark 3 body shells.

They are not the same, Mk3 coaching stock are 22.5m, the BR MU stock based on the Mk3s including the NIR 450 are 20m.

Captain Chaos

GM228 wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

I remember the MkIII NIR gauging trials in the 80s, but they didn't actually use a MKIII oddly enough!

NIR used a flat wagon with a wooden frame simulating the MkIII body shape. I don't know if the trials were ever photographed?

MkIIIs have worked past Belfast, to Bangor, but not sure if an actual MkIII went anywhere else past York Road.

Yeah in the mid 80s a mixed train of 2-3 Mk3s with 2-3 NIR Mk2s ran around the NIR network. There are a few photos of those trails.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah in the mid 80s a mixed train of 2-3 Mk3s with 2-3 NIR Mk2s ran around the NIR network. There are a few photos of those trails.

I checked with a friend who worked in NIR who tells me this wasn't a trial but a once off MkIII special which included a NIR MkII dining car (never knew about that working), so a MKIII has worked to Portrush with passengers in the past, but apparently MkIIIs were never officially cleared and the special operated with special permission.

What I wonder is why was the NIR MkII dining car included in the rake considering it couldn't be powered by the MkIII set so how it was powered I don't know and it was used to serve breakfast, there were 2 MkIII standards and a MkIII EGV so perhaps IE were short of a dining car?

EDIT: The MkIII/MkII set ran on 12th June 1985, with NIRs 547 being added to the MKIII set for a Portrush-Dublin special charter train for the Permanent Way Institution.

He also confirmed my memory of the NIR MkIII trials utilising a wagon with a timber frame as opposed to an actual MkIII.

tabbey

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah in the mid 80s a mixed train of 2-3 Mk3s with 2-3 NIR Mk2s ran around the NIR network. There are a few photos of those trails.

My understanding was that Irish Rail / CIE Mk II were vacuum braked while Mk III were air braked.
Am I to understand that NIR Mk II were air braked, or was I mistaken?

GM228

tabbey wrote: »

My understanding was that Irish Rail / CIE Mk II were vacuum braked while Mk III were air braked.
Am I to understand that NIR Mk II were air braked, or was I mistaken?

Correct, the special was a CIE MkIII and NIR MkII, both air braked.

Vic_08

tabbey wrote: »

My understanding was that Irish Rail / CIE Mk II were vacuum braked while Mk III were air braked.
Am I to understand that NIR Mk II were air braked, or was I mistaken?

Correct, NIR coaching stock and the 80/450 DEMUs were all 2 pipe air braked.

CIE was vacuum up to the Mk3.

GM228

Vic_08 wrote: »

Correct, NIR coaching stock and the 80/450 DEMUs were all 2 pipe air braked.

CIE was vacuum up to the Mk3.

80s were NIR 3-pipe air, the rest were UIC 2-pipe air.

However, NIR MkIIs were originally Westinghouse 3-pipe air brake (as were the Hunslet 101s which hauled them), but the MkIIs were converted to the 2-pipe system in January 1981 to coincide with the introduction of the 111s.

The 101s were also changed to 2-pipe air.

Cookie_Monster

Is there any indication what 216 is going to look like? The current green looks like undercoat, I hope that's not the final colour, especially coupled with the dark blue of the carriages.

Captain Chaos

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Is there any indication what 216 is going to look like? The current green looks like undercoat, I hope that's not the final colour, especially coupled with the dark blue of the carriages.

It will be dark blue like the Mk3s when it goes in for painting next week. The green is an undercoat primer to protect it as it has spent many months outside Inchicore prior to testing. I believe Belond wanted to keep the final livery under wraps for as long as possible but the Mk3 photos that got out from Kilmarnock in Scotland let the cat out of the bag early.

GM228

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Is there any indication what 216 is going to look like? The current green looks like undercoat, I hope that's not the final colour, especially coupled with the dark blue of the carriages.

As Captain Chaos has said it will be the same colour as the MkIIIs which is Cobalt Blue, a central panel will have the Grand Hibernian logo as below the same way they apply the Irish Rail/Intercity logos on the 201s.



Towards the No.1 end of the loco a full height light blue GH logo (just the intertwined logo) will also appear covering the area where the cab doors are.

Should also be receiving new Irish and English River Dodder nameplates apparently which will be blue and silver instead of the usual black and brass.

Jamie2k9

Hope the yellow ends don't clash with the blue to much.

A recent change in UK regulations means yellow ends are not required anymore I'm told. Wonder will authorities follow the same over here as we tend to do whatever the UK does in most things.

Would love to get a spin on the service but I don't intend on paying the cost. They would make a lot of cash if they offered a once off day trip for spotters etc.

I quiet like 216 colors and the common ones now, better than the mess they made of the 071's.

ClovenHoof

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hope the yellow ends don't clash with the blue to much.

Complementry colours. Will look very pleasing.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hope the yellow ends don't clash with the blue to much.

A recent change in UK regulations means yellow ends are not required anymore I'm told. Wonder will authorities follow the same over here as we tend to do whatever the UK does in most things.

Would love to get a spin on the service but I don't intend on paying the cost. They would make a lot of cash if they offered a once off day trip for spotters etc.

I quiet like 216 colors and the common ones now, better than the mess they made of the 071's.

The yellow ends in the UK are required under the rail group standards, no such standards actually exist here, they arn't actually a requirement, just something which is done to provide extra visibility, but 216 will have yellow ends.

Going back to the UK, the rules on yellow ends changed last year following an industry consultation, but yellow ends are still required unless the headlights meet a certain requirement regarding light output and nothing meets that standard yet, the Crossrail class 345s are expected to be the first to meet the requirements and have no yellow ends.

savagethegoat

http://www.brightonbelle.com/


no yellow ends here

Captain Chaos

savagethegoat wrote: »

http://www.brightonbelle.com/


no yellow ends here

I believe it's to do with "grandfather rights" as it's a restoration vehicle. You don't see the Flying Scotsman going around with a yellow smokebox either.

savagethegoat

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I believe it's to do with "grandfather rights" as it's a restoration vehicle. You don't see the Flying Scotsman going around with a yellow smokebox either.

I don't think so. In it's later days it had a yellow end (not FS) so grandfather rights wouldn't apply. It is having state of the art headlghts though, in lieu of yellow.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

The yellow ends in the UK are required under the rail group standards, no such standards actually exist here, they arn't actually a requirement, just something which is done to provide extra visibility, but 216 will have yellow ends.

Going back to the UK, the rules on yellow ends changed last year following an industry consultation, but yellow ends are still required unless the headlights meet a certain requirement regarding light output and nothing meets that standard yet, the Crossrail class 345s are expected to be the first to meet the requirements and have no yellow ends.

Thanks for clarifying, are they effective, the ends of the ICR's are more an orange than yellow except those ones which got smashed up and a few are carrying the same shade as 201's.

Anyway hope it looks well when its painted.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying, are they effective, the ends of the ICR's are more an orange than yellow except those ones which got smashed up and a few are carrying the same shade as 201's.

Anyway hope it looks well when its painted.

It will look like the NIR 201s when they were delivered in NIR blue with the yellow panels, just 216 will be in a much darker shade. I think it will look better with the warning panels than all over blue which would be very dull looking imo.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hope the yellow ends don't clash with the blue to much.

A recent change in UK regulations means yellow ends are not required anymore I'm told. Wonder will authorities follow the same over here as we tend to do whatever the UK does in most things.

Would love to get a spin on the service but I don't intend on paying the cost. They would make a lot of cash if they offered a once off day trip for spotters etc.

I quiet like 216 colors and the common ones now, better than the mess they made of the 071's.

I wouldn't mind a trip on it either but I doubt Belmond will want a bunch of beer swilling, bacon buttie munching crazies on their pristine stock. Can you imagine the usual ITG mob on a day out on it?

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

I wouldn't mind a trip on it either but I doubt Belmond will want a bunch of beer swilling, bacon buttie munching crazies on their pristine stock. Can you imagine the usual ITG mob on a day out on it?

LOL!

I'm booked for September. Sure what's 6.5K for a great 3 day trip for two!

I'll report back.......NOT!