IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Daith

TheChizler wrote: »

Excellent argument; all those who disagree with my opinion have vested interests.

Using ad hominem arguments isn't a classy debating style.

Exactly. All reasonable people would agree with that.

BoatMad

gladrags wrote: »

The trend was backed up in the local elections,with an historicl collapse of the FG vote...

and the all but extinct Labour vote.

Which,by the way,is now reminiscent of the smaller independent parties,you keep dismissing,and Labour has become!!!

It's a question of when,not if.

Oh I believe Labour will go the way of the greens. But that was even before the IW fiasco.

Another reduction in taxes will go some way to meeting the middle classes demands. 12 months is a long time in politics

Local elections are not good indicators of general elections, the Gov tends to get a kicking as a Gov, in a GE its the parties on their own. I predict there will be a falling out with Labour by that time. ( though not before).

personally I think it will be a FF/FG coalition, optionally a FG ragbag coalition ( that swill not stay together). I don think it will be a FF/SF cause there wont be enough votes. ( and SF would get trashed by being in coalition ) .

interesting election, it will be a great night of political punditry, Ive booked the all nighted

gladrags

gandalf wrote: »

Don't forget the percentage that SF get in any poll is skewed because they are more transfer toxic than other parties so unless they get voted in on the first vote they tend to lose out in the subsequent rounds like they did in Dublin SW when Murphy pipped Cathal King despite King being nearly 800 votes ahead of Murphy after the first count.

So how does this explain the SF success in the local elections?

Plates

gladrags wrote: »

So how does this explain the SF success in the local elections?

People of limited capacity being conned by soundbites.

gladrags

BoatMad wrote: »

Oh I believe Labour will go the way of the greens. But that was even before the IW fiasco.

Another reduction in taxes will go some way to meeting the middle classes demands. 12 months is a long time in politics

Local elections are not good indicators of general elections, the Gov tends to get a kicking as a Gov, in a GE its the parties on their own. I predict there will be a falling out with Labour by that time. ( though not before).

personally I think it will be a FF/FG coalition, optionally a FG ragbag coalition ( that swill not stay together). I don think it will be a FF/SF cause there wont be enough votes. ( and SF would get trashed by being in coalition ) .

interesting election, it will be a great night of political punditry, Ive booked the all nighted

You need to think outside the pale.

Progressively,and not from the parish pump.The electorate are punch drunk,and the FF/FG Labour era is over.

This country needs and deserves democratic alternitaves.

The system has proven to be corrupt at every turn.

Politically,economically and culturally.

Stargate

Somecrimesitry wrote: »

I spotted this glitch in the Matrix as it happened live yesterday:)

1) Type Varadkar into Google.
2) Click the link: Varadkar says Govt must charge strategy to be re-elected
3) Its a dead link on RTE from yesterday morning: .rte.ie/news/2014/1123/661812-varadkar/
4) So what? There are lots of dead links on RTE but not like this one.

The Tale Of The Disappearing Leo by Mr Sinister Fringe.

I got up early yesterday and clicked onto RTE. There was a headline story featuring a big cheesy picture of Leo including quotes from a Sunday Independent interview. It was his response to yesterday's Sunday Business Post/Red C poll. The Sunday Independent buried the interview details in this article:

.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/a-political-earthquake-30766626.html

"Last night, Health Minister Leo Varadkar conceded that the Coalition had lost the confidence of the public and would not be re-elected unless it changed its political strategy.

He said economic success alone would not secure the second term for the Coalition: "From now on we will pay much more attention to public confidence and trust.''

Remember that word...trust.

RTE published Leo's quotes in a headline story and let's face it there politically naive at best or even damaging at worst coming out of a current minister in the present climate..."lost the confidence of the public and would not be re-elected unless it changed its political strategy". Again so what? Well RTE published those quotes Sunday morning, then they deleted the entire article, replacing it with another headline Maria Cahill story, before adding a new article with the Chief Whip Paul Kehoes response to the same Red C poll. Why was Leo's article deleted rather than just moved down the index list like all the other stories? By the way this all happened over a two hour window early on a Sunday morning. Leo's article has never re-appeared on RTE but is still cached on Google and I presume the Chief Whip just happened to phone RTE first thing on a Sunday morning with some much more upbeat quotes to replace Leo's honest but somewhat downtrodden ones? .rte.ie/news/2014/1123/661842-water-concessions/

Trust is in very short supply throughout this land.

Compare this

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=652117561571860&set=vb.632003206916629&type=2&theater

To this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkZxyCpdF4

Maybe it's just me , but RTE do a job on that report ?

gandalf

gladrags wrote: »

So how does this explain the SF success in the local elections?

The second lowest turnout levels for local election contests in the history of the state would be a factor.

The fact that people don't see our Councillors as an important democratic representative. As Ivan Yates says the Dail is already full of people doing the job of Councillors which is a major part of the problem with our National Assembly and why cluster****s like IW keep happening.

Little CuChulainn

TheChizler wrote: »

Excellent argument; all those who disagree with my opinion have vested interests.

Using ad hominem arguments isn't a classy debating style.

Don't forget that you gotta be a traitor if you don't condemn everything FG, IW and Labor related.

BoatMad

gladrags wrote: »

You need to think outside the pale.

Progressively,and not from the parish pump.The electorate are punch drunk,and the FF/FG Labour era is over.

This country needs and deserves democratic alternitaves.

The system has proven to be corrupt at every turn.

Politically,economically and culturally.

This country needs and deserves democratic alternitaves.

Well thats SF out, coppinger wants to nationalise Dell, Murphys latest policy I think he gets from listening to the radio every day. - democratic.

The system has proven to be corrupt at every turn.

Politics is essentially corrupting, you have to promise things you can't deliver to get elected that renege on them to actually run the country. PR makes it even worse as parties compete against themselves. Then we mush it all up by not giving parties a mandate, get mushy coalitions and hence the result is a hodge podge of policies designed to please everyone and no-one

Politically,economically and culturally.

I see no economic or cultural corruption, the country is a wealthy place and getting more so. Culturally we've never been better IMHO.

Political corruption is an endemic that was baked into the founding of this state, IN the world index of such thing sIreland is not a corrupt place in the conventional meaning of the term.


But hey keep saying the term "corrupt" and corruption , make a good sound bite. The masses like sound bites,.

BoatMad

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Don't forget that you gotta be a traitor if you don't condemn everything FG, IW and Labor related.

Two legs bad, four leg good , two legs bad, four legs good, shout the masses.

BoatMad

gandalf wrote: »

The second lowest turnout levels for local election contests in the history of the state would be a factor.

The fact that people don't see our Councillors as an important democratic representative. As Ivan Yates says the Dail is already full of people doing the job of Councillors which is a major part of the problem with our National Assembly and why cluster****s like IW keep happening.

Indeed we have half the population of the greater Birmingham area and four times the political representation,

The whole place could be run by four local authorities and about 100 councillors.

gandalf

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed we have half the population of the greater Birmingham area and four times the political representation,

The whole place could be run by four local authorities and about 100 councillors.

Precisely my thoughts as well.

DamagedTrax

BoatMad wrote: »

But hey keep saying the term "corrupt" and corruption , make a good sound bite. The masses like sound bites,.

but hey, keep saying 'but hey'... thats not even slightly annoying and childish.

Grandpa Hassan

DamagedTrax wrote: »

but hey, keep saying 'but hey'... thats not even slightly annoying and childish.

But it doesn't invalidate the comment

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Two legs bad, four leg good , two legs bad, four legs good, shout the masses.

Two legs bad, four leg good , two legs bad, four legs good, shout them asses

Red Pepper

BoatMad, I like the cut of you jib and I think you are a reasonable man.

Question though, what do you think of the blatant cronyism in relation to the setup of IW?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93125664&postcount=2305

Tinkersbell

Plates wrote: »

People of limited capacity being conned by soundbites.

But enough about FG supporters.....

Fuhrer

Red Pepper wrote: »

BoatMad, I like the cut of you jib and I think you are a reasonable man.

Question though, what do you think of the blatant cronyism in relation to the setup of IW?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93125664&postcount=2305

"Something something Fianna Fail" id imagine

Plates

Tinkersbell wrote: »

But enough about FG supporters.....

We'll see who has the harder fall from their high horse come election time.

Fuhrer

BoatMad wrote: »

Indeed we have half the population of the greater Birmingham area and four times the political representation,

The whole place could be run by four local authorities and about 100 councillors.

We dont?

BoatMad

Red Pepper wrote: »

BoatMad, I like the cut of you jib and I think you are a reasonable man.

Question though, what do you think of the blatant cronyism in relation to the setup of IW?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93125664&postcount=2305

Absolutely, IW was setup in the most underhand and overly quick way.

BY THE WAY, cronyism is blatant across the whole face of Irish society, not just the public service. Ive seen it in private companies, public companies , the public service etc etc. Its the "way" we do things. remember this is the land of " its not what you know, its who you know"

In the public service, most of it is because unions insisted that promotion is based on seniority, that effectively removes outside hiring and encourages people to move around inside the service.

I would personally have preferred the LUAS approach, put the infrastructure into a public vehicle and then appoint a fully private "operator". No cosy deals with public sector unions, no allowing LAs to dump unwanted staff into IW, no 12 years cosy deals with LAs , in effect buying public infrastructure off already public infrastructure.

I am no fan of what FG did with IW, it was set up to fail almost from the outset. water charges are a FF and green creation, IW is all FG/Lab.

Tinkersbell

Plates wrote: »

We'll see who has the harder fall from their high horse come election time.

We certainly will.
SF will most lightly increase their seats, FG will almost certainly lose seats.

One down from their high horse, one getting up on theirs.

Red Pepper

BoatMad wrote: »

I am no fan of what FG did with IW, it was set up to fail almost from the outset. water charges are a FF and green creation, IW is all FG/Lab.

I think that is why many people are protesting.
The "new politics" document is a sham.
People have had enough of the elite protecting the elite.

BoatMad

Tinkersbell wrote: »

We certainly will.
SF will most lightly increase their seats, FG will almost certainly lose seats.

One down from their high horse, one getting up on theirs.

certainly FG will not be returned with more or the same seats as last GE, certainly SF will be returned with more.

That in itself is not enough to bring the leftists into Gov. SF is not a transfer friendly party, it has gained most of its traction by scavenging the left vote. But that vote is itself limited and there is an increasing phalanx of left independents now moving further left then SF, and in effect scavenging SF ( see Murphy).

Labour will be left decimated, primarily because its electoral support has somewhere to go , i.e. to SF and further Left. FF is probably at its base core support and is unlikely to fall further, if anything it may gain seats.

FGs fortunes will depend on it appeasing its traditional voter base, the middle classes. that was what they attempted to do is the past budget, they will undoubtedly attempt in the next one. If the economy keeps growing and unemployment falls and people feel they have a few more bob to spend. then most of this will be forgotten.

It will be an interesting election and I suspect the outcome will be a horrible " all over the place" result, resulting in a coalition, that perhaps nobody wanted.

BoatMad

Red Pepper wrote: »

I think that is why many people are protesting.

from the vox pops and surveys, people were/are protesting about a whole range of water related issues. Certain politicos are trying to mould this into an anti-austrity, anti Gov, anti everything protest,( I mean the constituents of the Right2Water can't even agree amongst themselves ) I don't see that type of protest continuing, the 10th will be a key indicator.

The "new politics" document is a sham.

all politics is a sham to some extent, we want what we can't have, we demand political parties get it for us and we don't elect the governments that can even attempt it.



[QUOTEPeople have had enough of the elite protecting the elite.[/QUOTE]

far to glib a statement to bother commenting about.

Red Pepper

BoatMad wrote: »

It will be an interesting election and I suspect the outcome will be a horrible " all over the place" result, resulting in a coalition, that perhaps nobody wanted.

The issue for me is whether the status quo is better then instability.
The status quo (FF or FG leading the governments) has taught us one thing -that our political system and permanent government are not fit for purpose.

In this case I think we need instability and perhaps chaos to redefine a new political system that serves the people. A new party or two is inevitable now.

I often wonder did Enda ensure that he lost the Seanad referendum on purpose because the Seanad is a superb place for cronyism.

Tinkersbell

BoatMad wrote: »

from the vox pops and surveys, people were/are protesting about a whole range of water related issues. Certain politicos are trying to mould this into an anti-austrity, anti Gov, anti everything protest,( I mean the constituents of the Right2Water can even agree amongst themselves ) I don't see that type of protest continuing, the 10th will be a key indicator.


all politics is a sham to some extent, we want what we can't have, we demand political parties get it for us and we don't elect the governments that can even attempt it.



[QUOTEPeople have had enough of the elite protecting the elite.

far to glib a statement to bother commenting about.[/QUOTE]

What kind of turnout on the 10th December would you class as a serious problem for the government?
I don't expect the 100,000 that were there the last time btw....

DamagedTrax

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

But it doesn't invalidate the comment

the masses may like to hear soundbites but in this case they apply.

Fuhrer

BoatMad wrote: »

Politics is essentially corrupting, you have to promise things you can't deliver to get elected that renege on them to actually run the country. PR makes it even worse as parties compete against themselves. Then we mush it all up by not giving parties a mandate, get mushy coalitions and hence the result is a hodge podge of policies designed to please everyone and no-one

Thats not even close to the level of corruption going on here and you know it.

falan

We'll be giving Enda Kenny a warm welcome in Limerick this evening. If anyone wants to join us we are meeting outside the Greenhills hotel in Caherdavin at 7.30pm sharp:)