IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

BoatMad

Red Pepper wrote: »

The issue for me is whether the status quo is better then instability.
The status quo (FF or FG leading the governments) has taught us one thing -that our political system and permanent government are not fit for purpose.

In this case I think we need instability and perhaps chaos to redefine a new political system that serves the people.

I often wonder did Enda ensure that he lost the Seanad referendum on purpose because the Seanad is a superb place for cronyism.

Your perspective is always the perspective of the detached "radical", its not different to my own, personally I would have liked to see FG tear the public sector and its unions a new arse hole, and I would have said I would put up with two years of attempts to halt the country in the process.

However the average voter doesn't agree with you or me. Once his pocket is affected or his immediate prospects worsen, he shouts stop. He's not interested in the longer game , or the bigger picture.

Look at the green party, a party that rode into government on the back of all sorts of great intentions, Good on yeah says its supporters, then we had carbon taxes, fuel taxes, wacky this and wacky that policy. What happened, god forbid we might have conviction politicians, f&*K them out boys.

"I often wonder did Enda ensure that he lost the Seanad referendum on purpose because the Seanad is a superb place for cronyism."

Now that is just pure tinfoil hat stuff, it doesn't become you.

Getting rid of the Seanad was a great idea, but it was badly handled, because the Gov mis-read the signals. ( Just like it did so on IW). FG and labour are a terrible mix of parties, this means they have too many views pulling for attention, this causes mis-steps.

Autonomous Cowherd

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Let's be honest, there is a tiny tiny % of people who have been so poor that they haven't been able to afford a dentist appointment in 5 years, arguably non-existent actually.

well i am one of them. Do not patronise us

BoatMad

Fuhrer wrote: »

Thats not even close to the level of corruption going on here and you know it.

Im a student of politics , I follow it, Ive also been in business and Ive access ( had) to politicians. Ive met lots of SF people too by the way, very impressive if slightly over -intense. ( and my family hails from the left of politics, but not in politics I hasten to add)

What you call corruption is what most "mammies" in this country called getting the kid a job,

I remember in business being approached for donations for political parties, you gave those in power a few quid, this in direct opposition a few quid /2 and the rest quid/5. You'd didn't expect to get anything in return, you fancied that you might get a hearing if you had any trouble, that rarely happened.

Politicians control far far less then you believe,


There is no great nexus of "corruption" in this country, most of what goes on is typically what goes on between Irish people everywhere, its part of who were are. The wink the nod, backhander, the few pints in the back room, and thats just to sell a cow.!

Yes there have been a few spectaculars, a few bad eggs, some of which seemed to be repeatedly re-elected by the electorate - fancy that.

you get the politicians you want, thats the facts of the matter, they are a mirror on our society.

gladrags

"Well thats SF out, coppinger wants to nationalise Dell, Murphys latest policy I think he gets from listening to the radio every day. - democratic. "

Your mask has dropped,personal diatribe.
Nothing positive to offer...

"Politics is essentially corrupting, you have to promise things you can't deliver to get elected that renege on them to actually run the country. PR makes it even worse as parties compete against themselves. Then we mush it all up by not giving parties a mandate, get mushy coalitions and hence the result is a hodge podge of policies designed to please everyone and no-one,"

That's the politics we are left with,because trust has dissapeared.

Who is democratically accountable,for this?

"I see no economic or cultural corruption, the country is a wealthy place and getting more so. Culturally we've never been better IMHO."

You sound like Enda,denieng the obvious.

"Political corruption is an endemic that was baked into the founding of this state, IN the world index of such thing sIreland is not a corrupt place in the conventional meaning of the term."

By whom ?

BoatMad

Originally Posted by Chucky the tree View Post
Let's be honest, there is a tiny tiny % of people who have been so poor that they haven't been able to afford a dentist appointment in 5 years, arguably non-existent actually.

well i am one of them. Do not patronise us

I think it may have been an analogy, ( or an analogue) what he meant was that few ( note few) people have absolutely nothing, those that do the state puts a form of security net under.

Fuhrer

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no great nexus of "corruption" in this country, most of what goes on is typically what goes on between Irish people everywhere, its part of who were are. The wink the nod, backhander, the few pints in the back room, and thats just to sell a cow.!

That is the very definition of corruption.

Chucky the tree

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

well i am one of them. Do not patronise us

So in the last 5 years you haven't had a nigh out, gone to a restaurant, or do anything socialable like that? I find that very hard to believe.

Highflyer13

BoatMad wrote: »

Im a student of politics , I follow it, Ive also been in business and Ive access ( had) to politicians. Ive met lots of SF people too by the way, very impressive if slightly over -intense. ( and my family hails from the left of politics, but not in politics I hasten to add)

What you call corruption is what most "mammies" in this country called getting the kid a job,

I remember in business being approached for donations for political parties, you gave those in power a few quid, this in direct opposition a few quid /2 and the rest quid/5. You'd didn't expect to get anything in return, you fancied that you might get a hearing if you had any trouble, that rarely happened.

Politicians control far far less then you believe,


There is no great nexus of "corruption" in this country, most of what goes on is typically what goes on between Irish people everywhere, its part of who were are. The wink the nod, backhander, the few pints in the back room, and thats just to sell a cow.!

Yes there have been a few spectaculars, a few bad eggs, some of which seemed to be repeatedly re-elected by the electorate - fancy that.

you get the politicians you want, thats the facts of the matter, they are a mirror on our society.

The fact that you acknowledge corruption is there and seems ok in your book worries me. A backhander is corruption. Yeah sure its fine when your selling a cow man to man or to the highest bidder. But it certainly is not fine at political level when there are contracts at stake worth hundreds of millions of euro of tax payer money. I hope you don't plan to enter politics some day.

BoatMad

gladrags wrote: »

"Well thats SF out, coppinger wants to nationalise Dell, Murphys latest policy I think he gets from listening to the radio every day. - democratic. "

Your mask has dropped,personal diatribe.

nope based on coppingers own RTE interviews and her ridiculous "budget", Murphy is a poor little rich kid, with a "where the next leftist issue I can coat tail on", opportunist politics at its best

Nothing positive to offer...

your right they don't have

"Politics is essentially corrupting, you have to promise things you can't deliver to get elected that renege on them to actually run the country. PR makes it even worse as parties compete against themselves. Then we mush it all up by not giving parties a mandate, get mushy coalitions and hence the result is a hodge podge of policies designed to please everyone and no-one,"

That's the politics we are left with,because trust has dissapeared.

No its the politics, we the electorate have spent years building up.

Who is democratically accountable,for this?

"I see no economic or cultural corruption, the country is a wealthy place and getting more so. Culturally we've never been better IMHO."

You sound like Enda,denieng the obvious.

Firstly Ireland is an extremely wealthy nation in the world compared to many others, some of our problems, nations would give their right leg to have,

Why is it that left wingers seems to want to mire the country in depression, is it that you can only win your argument if everyone is dragged down to your level. God forbid we might be prosperous, our kids might have jobs, etc

I see no "cultural " corruption

"Political corruption is an endemic that was baked into the founding of this state, IN the world index of such thing sIreland is not a corrupt place in the conventional meaning of the term."

By whom ?

A lot of this dates back to a colonial attitude, since we are not in control of the state, we don't see our allegiance to that state as important, we see allegiance to family ( cronyism), clan and background even our business as important. We like to do "deals " out of the sight of officials ( cause these officials were not "ours). Taxes are something paid to "them"

This went to a stage that we actually shot each other over the formation of the state, i.e. we put ourselves above the very survival of the state.

This attitude has passed into our politics, we don't see the nation as important , we see individual gain and loss as important. Hence we have massive parish pump politics, where the primary purpose of our elected representatives is not to govern, its to see what they can "squeeze" out of the state for "us". Ask any elected rep , how to get elected and stay elected.


we baked in corruption into our politics, because ultimately its what we wanted.

BoatMad

Highflyer13 wrote: »

The fact that you acknowledge corruption is there and seems ok in your book worries me. A backhander is corruption. Yeah sure its fine when your selling a cow man to man or to the highest bidder. But it certainly is not fine at political level when there are contracts at stake worth hundreds of millions of euro of tax payer money. I hope you don't plan to enter politics some day.

No its exactly the same thinking whether its millions or singles. Its an attitude, its part of who we are and in order to stamp it out we have to begin right at the bottom,

we have to embrace transparency ( not a hope), its just not who we are.,

What Im trying to get across, is this is not corruption per say, ( there have been very few cases that have been proven), its a societal approach, it comes from our homogeneity, our rural background , our person too person approach,

DO business in Scandinavia and you'll see what I mean

Little CuChulainn

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

well i am one of them. Do not patronise us

I don't see how that would be. Employed persons get free checkup. Medical card holders get free checkups. Children get free checkups. In the event you don't fit into any of those groups, you can still apply for money from your local social for the check up

emo72

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't see how that would be. Employed persons get free checkup. Medical card holders get free checkups. Children get free checkups. In the event you don't fit into any of those groups, you can still apply for money from your local social for the check up

self employed people would be laughed out of the social office. we are all rich.

emo72

has anyone considered that Sierra or GMC might decide that the threat to their workers is too great and pull the plug on the installations?

Little CuChulainn

emo72 wrote: »

self employed people would be laughed out of the social office. we are all rich.

You should try it some time.

emo72

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You should try it some time.

i appreciate your concern, but i'll give it a miss.

BoatMad

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I don't see how that would be. Employed persons get free checkup. Medical card holders get free checkups. Children get free checkups. In the event you don't fit into any of those groups, you can still apply for money from your local social for the check up

not of course if you are self-employed, you get squat. pound for pound they pay more tax then the exact same person on paye and they get nothing in return.

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

not of course if you are self-employed, you get squat. pound for pound they pay more tax then the exact same person on paye and they get nothing in return.

In fairness that's not entirely factual. Self employed leaves various options to legally avoid tax. So dont compare the two they are not comparable bar paye there are few avenues to limit your tax take.

Again your comparison is heavily flawed and quite simplistic.

twowheelsgood

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I think perhaps you overestimate the effects of the recovery and perhaps underestimate the effects of the shell-shock that prevented people from mobilising themselves when our 'betters' told us we had to dump our citizens best interests in favour of bailing out anonymous bondholders (gamblers on bank stocks).

I certainly don’t over-estimate our recovery but it’s much further along that I would have expected 3-4 years ago.

And bondholders my ear! About 10 billion of a 200 billion debt, the majority of which is down to the state spending money it doesn’t have.

But in any case, my point was about the timing of the protests.

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I for one will be out on December 10th and hoping to bring down an elitist government that has no clue what it is like to scrimp and struggle in the real world.

Well I would ask what exactly do you hope to achieve? I get the impression from some who make what is essentially the “enough is enough” argument that they imagine you will have a few hundred extra per year if water charges are abolished. That it would be similar to getting a write-down on a personal debt where you do gain to the tune of the amount written down.

But of course the government are committed to reducing the deficit so if they don’t take it out of your right pocket via a water charge they will take it out of your left via some other means. And the net effect on Joe Public is exactly the same.

Perhaps the government will fall and their replacement will opt to make no further reduction in our deficit? Most unlikely on both counts but if that does happen then we will simply be adding to the already massive debt burden on our descendants.

And that is our choice IMO. Deal with the cock-ups caused by our generation (even if many think they were not complicit) or dump the problem on our children.

I just don’t think the “we have paid enough” is a moral argument that can be made. You can make a “I have paid enough” argument (where I is someone who is genuinely struggling) and argue for sensible, progressive measures. And metered waters is IMO one such measure.

But to wheel out the argument, as some do, about all the higher than elsewhere taxes we pay, taking no account of our deficit is not a credible position to take.

Pocoyo

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/council-of-europe-calls-for-executive-reforms-in-ireland-1.2009606

The Council of Europe has called for a radical reform of Ireland’s parliamentary system in order to prevent corruption and misconduct by members of the Houses of the Oireachtas.
In a wide-ranging review of Ireland’s parliamentary, judicial and prosecution system to be published today, the Strasbourg-based body notes that there is “growing concern” about corruption in Ireland, despite recent reforms such as the Freedom of Information Act and Ethics Acts.
Among the 11 specific recommendations proposed by the body is a call for TDs to be given regular training on ethics, conflict of interest and corruption-prevention issues. It also notes “with concern” that the disclosure of confidential communication can lead to up to six months in prison in Ireland.

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

In fairness that's not entirely factual. Self employed leaves various options to legally avoid tax. So dont compare the two they are not comparable bar paye there are few avenues to limit your tax take.

Again your comparison is heavily flawed and quite simplistic.

Sorry, take a director of a small firm, He's legally required to take all renumeration via PAYE, he's classed as self employed , he has absolutely no legal room to reduce his taxes., He pays more pound for pound then his employee sitting next to him, he gets no SW, he gets no PAYE allowance. He is denyed a whole range of SW initiatives to get him back into earning employment again.

If he can't work he starves.

These are actually where the hidden poverty is

BoatMad

emo72 wrote: »

has anyone considered that Sierra or GMC might decide that the threat to their workers is too great and pull the plug on the installations?

No, they are installing meters all over the place without protest.

BoatMad

Highflyer13 wrote: »

The fact that you acknowledge corruption is there and seems ok in your book worries me. A backhander is corruption. Yeah sure its fine when your selling a cow man to man or to the highest bidder. But it certainly is not fine at political level when there are contracts at stake worth hundreds of millions of euro of tax payer money. I hope you don't plan to enter politics some day.

I do not condone it, I merely am explaining it

Pocoyo

'Gardaí have raised concerns in the High Court about their ability to police protests around water meter installation works.

A Chief Superintendent has told the court that the work stations are not deemed to be public areas and are therefore not subject to the Public Order Act.'

It seems the gardai may of had enough of this government now too.

Tony EH

I wouldn't blame them.

Thurston?

Pocoyo wrote: »

It seems the gardai may of had enough of this government now too.

Because they are seeking clarification on the law?

gladrags

Quote:BoatMad

"Nope based on coppingers own RTE interviews and her ridiculous "budget", Murphy is a poor little rich kid, with a "where the next leftist issue I can coat tail on", opportunist politics at its best"

Two young courageous leaders,show leadership,and bring Kenny and his cronies,to their knees.

They cannot hack it.

Attack,attack.

"No its the politics, we the electorate have spent years building up."

Now they want alternitaves.

Democratic alternitaves.


"Firstly Ireland is an extremely wealthy nation in the world compared to many others, some of our problems, nations would give their right leg to have,"

Where is the extreme wealth?

Is austerity a mirage?

"I see no "cultural " corruption "

No tribunals,no quangos,no cronies,?

No greedy well educated bankers,ransacking the country?

If there is so much wealth,why draconian cutbacks?

"A lot of this dates back to a colonial attitude.This attitude has passed into our politics, we don't see the nation as important , we see individual gain and loss as important. Hence we have massive parish pump politics, where the primary purpose of our elected representatives is not to govern, its to see what they can "squeeze" out of the state for "us". Ask any elected rep , how to get elected and stay elected."

The colonial and tribal times of FF/FG,and their legacy.

Which at last is now being challenged,
democratically.

"We baked in corruption into our politics, because ultimately its what we wanted"

Right,blame the electorate.

We now want change.

And change is the biggest fear.

Pocoyo

Thurston? wrote: »

Because they are seeking clarification on the law?

'A Chief Superintendent has told the court that the work stations are not deemed to be public areas and are therefore not subject to the Public Order Act.'

He was providing his interpretation of the law not asking a question.

May i ad it was a ballsy move on that superintendents behalf,It still wont save the the gardai from reform though.

BoatMad

Pocoyo wrote: »

'Gardaí have raised concerns in the High Court about their ability to police protests around water meter installation works.

A Chief Superintendent has told the court that the work stations are not deemed to be public areas and are therefore not subject to the Public Order Act.'

It seems the gardai may of had enough of this government now too.

DO you guys have to misrepresent everything, I heard a dog is lost near us, perhaps he's tired of this government too.

At a hearing in Cork, four people were brought before a judge concerning the breaching of a 20 metre exclusion injunction.

As part of that a Chief superindentant voiced his view that the work areas are not public areas as defined by the various public order acts. The chief superintendent, further said there was sanctions under the water services acts ( presumably the various clauses about not preventing an agents going about his business or your curtiledge)


The judge is retiring to consider whether the injection was broken, that would be a contempt of court issue.


Report things factually stop making stuff up.

Banjo String

Anyone any updates on how Enda was received in Limerick this evening?

I'm guessing there would have been a welcoming committee formed to greet him?

Pocoyo

BoatMad wrote: »

DO you guys have to misrepresent everything, I heard a dog is lost near us, perhaps he's tired of this government too.

At a hearing in Cork, four people were brought before a judge concerning the breaching of a 20 metre exclusion injunction.

As part of that a Chief superindentant voiced his view that the work areas are not public areas as defined by the various public order acts. The chief superintendent, further said there was sanctions under the water services acts ( presumably the various clauses about not preventing an agents going about his business or your curtiledge)


The judge is retiring to consider whether the injection was broken, that would be a contempt of court issue.


Report things factually stop making stuff up.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/11/24/garda-superintendent-raises-concerns-about-policing-water-meter-protests/#.VHNpUNP86l0.facebook

What did i make up?