IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

ROCKMAN

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

There are a hell of a lot of satellite dishes attached to houses of so-called protesters. Priorities, eh?

I 'm so happy that you have pointed out how these so called protesters are already paying their way and are willing to help out by paying their TV licence ,

And that they must honestly believe that Water charge is a case of the straw that broke the Camel's back.

shinzon

Barely There wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not going to hand-hold you. This is a journey of discovery you need to make for yourself.
No thanks. I have a life to be living.

That there just shows how ignorant you really are, I feel sorry for you I really do

Shin

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

That there just shows how ignorant you really are, I feel sorry for you I really do

Shin

And signing everything when we're already aware of who you are (username) or reposting troll videos at everyone you disagree with shows how pigheaded you are. It's really hypocritical to tell other people to stop sticking their fingers in their ears when you seem to be the only poster doing it.

shinzon

ROCKMAN wrote: »

I 'm so happy that you have pointed out how these so called protesters are already paying their way and are willing to help out by paying their TV licence ,

And that they must honestly believe that Water charge is a case of the straw that broke the Camel's back.

yeah its when they run out of arguments that they fall back on the old reliables, dole scroungers, dissidents, satellite dishes. No new arguments just lash out with whatever comes to there brain and hope it sticks

and then they realise crap thats made there point for them

Highly entertaining when they trip themselves up with there own arguments

Shin

shinzon

denhaagenite wrote: »

And signing everything when we're already aware of who you are (username) or reposting troll videos at everyone you disagree with shows how pigheaded you are. It's really hypocritical to tell other people to stop sticking their fingers in their ears when you seem to be the only poster doing it.

Signing my name off really annoys people doesn't it good ill keep doing it so thanks for the heads up, and if that's all that is annoying you today god help ye, and just for clarification the troll videos were aimed at one person and that was Barely There because he was and still is posting complete nonsense and I did warn him I was doing it and that was the only person I was posting the troll video about, so get the facts straight before posting



Shin

humanji

Barely There & shinzon, stop the bickering or you'll be banned from the thread.

yipeeeee

shinzon wrote: »

Signing my name off really annoys people doesn't it good ill keep doing it so thanks for the heads up, and if that's all that is annoying you today god help ye


Shin

Nice attitude and you talk about class divide.

hju6

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

There are a hell of a lot of satellite dishes attached to houses of so-called protesters. Priorities, eh?

There is such a thing as free to air satellite which is subscription free, a lot of people have this due to the sustained austerity of the failing government.

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

Signing my name off really annoys people doesn't it good ill keep doing it so thanks for the heads up, and if that's all that is annoying you today god help ye


Shin

It's not annoying, I think it shows quite well why your stance on issues may not be quite reliable for most reasonable people.

denhaagenite

Barely There wrote: »

I'm fine with the name at the end of post thing.

It's in keeping with the sense of self importance that the troublesome protestors, who have destroyed the decent argument, have brought to it. They're not educating themselves on anything that doesn't back up their own opinions. They're trying to keep up a pretence of fighting for "what's right" when in reality they have just been caught up in the hysteria and are currently enjoying the smell of their own farts.

ROCKMAN

Quick questions for pro side (mainly)

According to Irish Water the sign up rate was around the 800k+ mark before the government climb down ,It's now reported to be approaching the 900k mark ,

My questions are..
Do you think they will be happy will these figures ?
Do you think they would have expected a much bigger rush after Kelly's speech ?
Yes ok if these new figures are to be believed there still a massive 44% (700k houses )not signed up ,
So will this figure of non payment be enough to bring down Irish Water ?
And finally... Do we have any independent figures available?

humanji

Sorry, I didn't realise I had to make it clear that the rest of you aren't still free to bicker, so give it a rest.

shinzon

denhaagenite wrote: »

It's not annoying, I think it shows quite well why your stance on issues may not be quite reliable for most reasonable people.

Cool ill just be over here with the cool unreasonable people then, I rather be there then drinking the Irish Water kool aid

You know someone said a few days ago that you cant debate with me because I ask for simple proof when the other side starts attacking what I link to in this thread

Take yesterday with Keith Clancy and the mirror article, the only argument he could put was that it was a tits and arse red top and so it must be complete rubbish, when he knows damn well theres libel to think about when any journalist including red tops publish anything.

Ill debate with anyone I really will but I will also continue to pull people up and point out stuff if all there doing is coming in and making statements like dole scroungers giving up stuff to pay for a charge, that's not debating that's a narrow minded view of whats mines mine and go **** the rest of ye.

And in the greater scheme of things what has me signing my name off when I post got to do with anything, I have 3000 odd posts all over boards and yet its only in here and only in this thread that's its pointed out which I find extremely strange in an after hours thread.

Shin

Grandpa Hassan

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Quick questions for pro side (mainly)

According to Irish Water the sign up rate was around the 800k+ mark before the government climb down ,It's now reported to be approaching the 900k mark ,

My questions are..
Do you think they will be happy will these figures ?
Do you think they would have expected a much bigger rush after Kelly's speech ?
Yes ok if these new figures are to be believed there still a massive 44% (700k houses )not signed up ,
So will this figure of non payment be enough to bring down Irish Water ?
And finally... Do we have any independent figures available?

The non payment level might be enough to force a change to the way that the government go about collection (to 'bring down' IW as you say). But not a chance that it gets rid of water charges.

In 3 or 4 years we will all be paying water charges with the same efficiency as we pay gas and electricity. It is inevitable

And I absolutely agree that we should. The user should pay. Subject to thresholds / rebates for less well off.

Barely There

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

In 3 or 4 years we will all be paying water charges with the same efficiency as we pay gas and electricity. It is inevitable

I think that reality has started to sink in with the general public and is even sinking in with the more hyperbolic posters on this thread.

I noticed a couple of the most fervent opponents of water metering lose it in recent days and get banned - it would seem truth, does indeed, hurt.

This thread and its previous inceptions will be an interesting read in 10 years or so.

Hopefully by that stage, water charging will be completely normailsed, charges will have risen to reflect actual costs - i.e. many hundreds of euros per household.
The burden on PAYE workers will have reduced in line with this.

And finally, privatisation measures are all ready well advanced if not completed.

ROCKMAN

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The non payment level might be enough to force a change to the way that the government go about collection (to 'bring down' IW as you say). But not a chance that it gets rid of water charges.

In 3 or 4 years we will all be paying water charges with the same efficiency as we pay gas and electricity. It is inevitable

And I absolutely agree that we should. The user should pay. Subject to thresholds / rebates for less well off.

Thanks
But can you see the Government falling on their sword over this issue ?
I mean ..If its a case of the Government's survival or IW's survival ,
I can only see one outcome.
And this is why I still see a very good chance that the anti water protest could prevail .

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

Take yesterday with Keith Clancy and the mirror article, the only argument he could put was that it was a tits and arse red top and so it must be complete rubbish, when he knows damn well theres libel to think about when any journalist including red tops publish anything.

Shin

Because tabloids are simply terrified of libel, aren't they? Here's how they work: Print something salacious. Increase sales. Take part of increased sales to pay off upset party. Ad infinitum.

Left your signature in the quote so as not to hurt your feelings.

Breffnigolfer

Any of the protesters care to explain the opposition to the installation of water meters?

hju6

Barely There wrote: »

I think that reality has started to sink in with the general public and is even sinking in with the more hyperbolic posters on this thread.

I noticed a couple of the most fervent opponents of water metering lose it in recent days and get banned - it would seem truth, does indeed, hurt.

This thread and its previous inceptions will be an interesting read in 10 years or so.

Hopefully by that stage, water charging will be completely normailsed, charges will have risen to reflect actual costs - i.e. many hundreds of euros per household.
The burden on PAYE workers will have reduced in line with this.

And finally, privatisation measures are all ready well advanced if not completed.

I would say you are guessing completely wrong there,

Due to the heightened public awareness of the whole mess IW is, along with the cronyism, dislike for the government, and the non stop lies, U turns etc IW will not survive,

You have totally underestimated the publics anger on this matter, and just because the propaganda outlets have toned down the coverage, it does not mean the anger has gone,


Huj

shinzon

denhaagenite wrote: »

Because tabloids are simply terrified of libel, aren't they? Here's how they work: Print something salacious. Increase sales. Take part of increased sales to pay off upset party. Ad infinitum.

Left your signature in the quote so as not to hurt your feelings.

Ever since Rebekah brookes and the news of the world scandal yes there afraid of posting potentiallly libellous and defamatory information

Shin

denhaagenite

hju6 wrote: »

I would say you are guessing completely wrong there,

Due to the heightened public awareness of the whole mess IW is, along with the cronyism, dislike for the government, and the non stop lies, U turns etc IW will not survive,

You have totally underestimated the publics anger on this manner, and just because the propaganda outlets have toned down the coverage, it does not mean the anger has gone,


Huj

But the problem is, all the protests are mixed up together. This is my opinion on all the issues:

Cronyism: AGAINST AGAINST AGAINST. A practice prevalent in our culture that needs to be done away with ASAP

Government: Was never a fan of FG, but don't disagree with most of the changes they've made and can't see how any other party could possibly be doing anything differently

IW: Was for, but I'm concerned new rules on charging, the climbdown showing a lack of backbone, the dumping of cc workers in it that are useless and have no other place, not to mention management. Don't have much of a problem with fees for consultants and general setup fees but the bonus thing is just ridiculous. Don't think it should be scrapped but I feel it's a dubious organisation to say the least. Redundancy for those who are not needed, bonus system brought in line with that of other similar organisations and immediate removal of upper management and I would trust it more.

Water Charges: Completely in favour

Water Meters: Completely in favour

Austerity: It's not nice but it's necessary. If you want to blame someone blame successive governments bribing their way into office by cutting taxes to almost nothing in the past, and making it a much tougher pill to swallow at the moment. In time employment will come back up and wages will rise to afford people a living wage even with the taxes.

The problem is practically all protestors have a different agenda and hardly anyone is being clear about things. It's a mob mentality, and a lot of the worst "anti" people are just attacking everyone who disagrees with anything that they say. Why would siding with people like that serve my best interests, or that of my friends, family, community? We've heard it time and time again that protestors who have nothing to do with the area that water meters are being installed in on any given day are just showing up terrorising and abusing IW employees and expecting residents to be grateful for it. When I want someone to represent me I'll let them know but I'm not going to accept that these practically illiterate lunatics are fighting for Irish society.

Larbre34

Barely There wrote: »

I think that reality has started to sink in with the general public and is even sinking in with the more hyperbolic posters on this thread.

I noticed a couple of the most fervent opponents of water metering lose it in recent days and get banned - it would seem truth, does indeed, hurt.

This thread and its previous inceptions will be an interesting read in 10 years or so.

Hopefully by that stage, water charging will be completely normailsed, charges will have risen to reflect actual costs - i.e. many hundreds of euros per household.
The burden on PAYE workers will have reduced in line with this.

And finally, privatisation measures are all ready well advanced if not completed.

We're dealing with the here and now. Just getting to this point of an complete and utter clusterf**k has already put the state/IW in hock for a further billion. The auction politics charges we are now looking at, 60/160, will take a decade and a half to make a dent in that if they are trying to pay for infrastructure in the meantime.

People will not stand for the echoes of the HSE in IW, so that will have to go. People will not stand for Govt bungling in this and other matters, so they will be going too.

A complete reworking of PAYE/PRSI/USC will be required to properly reduce the tax burden and move to a polluter pays model in Water, Health and other big exchequer money pits. That will take a generation.

Then we have the loss of hearts and minds on the conservation issue. The Govt bet its house on metering, then jettisoned their necessity in a panic to save their own skins. People wont forget that in a hurry either, cynicism grows ever more. And that equipment will probably have failed by 2019. Itll make the e-voting machines scandal look like a misplaced box of biros.

Your whole notion that this will be "normalised" in a decade is deluded fantasy island stuff. It will take at least that long on going backwards to undo this mess before they can begin moving properly forward.

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

Ever since Rebekah brookes and the news of the world scandal yes there afraid of posting potentiallly libellous and defamatory information

Shin

This was just over a month ago and happened in the last 2 years...

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/21/justin-timberlake-jessica-biel-heat-lawsuit

Sorry for off topic, I'm just pointing out that defamation happens, will continue to happen and a tabloid/ magazine/ whatever will weigh up whether or not they'll be in the black. Newspapers lie sometimes. We need to be sceptical about what we are reading in all cases and avoid publications that have time and again proven themselves to be unreliable if we are to claim that our decisions and opinions are sufficiently informed.

darkpagandeath

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

Any of the protesters care to explain the opposition to the installation of water meters?

You would have to ask the ones opposed to meters. Metering is not a huge deal if it was used to gauge what people use and average it out and charge a flat rate.

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Take yesterday with Keith Clancy and the mirror article, the only argument he could put was that it was a tits and arse red top and so it must be complete rubbish, when he knows damn well theres libel to think about when any journalist including red tops publish anything.

Shin

Oh, you mean the post where I pointed out an article from The Journal where the Fianna Fail member which has a vested interest in votes was pointed out to be mistaken by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93267041&postcount=4340

On the same headline page of the Mirror, there was an article detailing how a man drank 10 cans of Coke per day per month and "guess how much weight he piles on"

No, Tabloids such as The Mirror are tat and always will be tat, writing 'news' to sell papers to the lowest common denominator.

I personally find spreading disinformation to either sell papers or get Facebook likes abhorrent.

This pretty much sums it up:

http://debatewise.org/debates/233-the-tabloid-press-is-reactionary/

The Tabloid Press is Reactionary

Tabloids - such as the UK based Daily Mail, the Sun and the Daily Star - are false in holding themselves as the champion of 'the people'. Their short-lived campaigns for immediate change to government policy do not assist a deliberative process of government. They are reactionary, blinding their readers to reasoned debates and partake in general sophistry to sell higher volumes.


All the Yes points:

• False Journalism
• Tabloids simply pander to the angry mob
• Profit machines

All the No points:

• Freedom of the Press

Please do go on :pac:

Barely There

Larbre34 wrote: »

People will not stand for the echoes of the HSE in IW, so that will have to go. People will not stand for Govt bungling in this and other matters, so they will be going too.

The 'people' are one homogenised mass are they?

If you took a random sample of 100 people attending the last protest, put them in a room together and asked them to come up with a workable alternative, they'd be tearing each other apart within 5 minutes.

The protests are an unfocused mess of general public annoyance with prolonged austerity measures - nothing more, they'll fade away to nothing - just wait and see.

IW is here to stay, it's the only show in town and too much has already been invested in it.
Maybe they'll rename it as a sop to the hard-core protestors.

denhaagenite

Larbre34 wrote: »

People will not stand for the echoes of the HSE in IW, so that will have to go. People will not stand for Govt bungling in this and other matters, so they will be going too.

A complete reworking of PAYE/PRSI/USC will be required to properly reduce the tax burden and move to a polluter pays model in Water, Health and other big exchequer money pits. That will take a generation.

Then we have the loss of hearts and minds on the conservation issue. The Govt bet its house on metering, then jettisoned their necessity in a panic to save their own skins. People wont forget that in a hurry either, cynicism grows ever more. And that equipment will probably have failed by 2019. Itll make the e-voting machines scandal look like a misplaced box of biros.

Absolutely agree with this. I do empathise with the government. They keep reminding us that they were left with a mess and rolling our eyes to heaven about them repeating it doesn't make it less true. Half of them want to make a difference but are in very uncharted territory for Irish politics and the other half are just trying to plough on making the same mistakes and slapping the same backs- I would remember that when going to the polls, a whole party is not to blame. I just hope that anger doesn't take over and Ireland doesn't get stuck with a completely disjointed and inexperienced coalition because of a protest vote.

To Elland Back

Can I ask about the proposed protest on the 10th? In Dublin, is there a start off point, gathering area, planned route?

Cheers

darkpagandeath

Barely There wrote: »

The 'people' are one homogenised mass are they?

If you took a random sample of 100 people attending the last protest, put them in a room together and asked them to come up with a workable alternative, they'd be tearing each other apart within 5 minutes.

The protests are an unfocused mess of general public annoyance with prolonged austerity measures - nothing more, they'll fade away to nothing - just wait and see.

IW is here to stay, it's the only show in town and too much has already been invested in it.
Maybe they'll rename it as a sop to the hard-core protestors.

Back to words like that eh I think you will find most people are from the general population and not this hardcore element.

Barely There

To Elland Back wrote: »

Can I ask about the proposed protest on the 10th? In Dublin, is there a start off point, gathering area, planned route?

Cheers

No, it's been cancelled due to public disinterest.