IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

darkpagandeath

Barely There wrote: »

No, it's been cancelled due to public disinterest.

Who cancelled it then, There is not just 1 organiser it was an overall idea.

Breffnigolfer

Barely There wrote: »

The 'people' are one homogenised mass are they?

If you took a random sample of 100 people attending the last protest, put them in a room together and asked them to come up with a workable alternative, they'd be tearing each other apart within 5 minutes.

The protests are an unfocused mess of general public annoyance with prolonged austerity measures - nothing more, they'll fade away to nothing - just wait and see.

IW is here to stay, it's the only show in town and too much has already been invested in it.
Maybe they'll rename it as a sop to the hard-core protestors.

I would hazard a guess that the 100 people you reference would contain little more than a quarter who actually voted in a General Election?

Paul Murphy, chief rabble rouser, was elected in a bye-election where the turnout was 35%.

denhaagenite

Barely There wrote: »

No, it's been cancelled due to public disinterest.

That's actually quite funny, imagine the great unwashed are having their tea having read here that it was all off and it's on the six one that there's tumbleweed rolling across O Connell Street. They might try and use legal aid to take Boards.ie to court :pac:

Highflyer13

This Govt promised reform and we have not got reform. Instead the set up another useless bloated quango. I write this from my laptop as I sit at home having to take another day off work sick as a dog struggling and gasping for breath waiting for the HSE to come and get me. I nearly died last Christmas ffs. Their solution was to put me on an inhaler and send me to a consultant. Im still waiting to see that consultant. Im told it will be probably after Christmas. F**k it I've had enough. I have worked and paid my taxes since the day I left school. Also I am always educating and bettering myself and contribute to society and various causes.

From my position its hard to see how this shower in Govt put people first. Society is falling apart around us. Anybody who doesn't see that is a fool.

I would have no problem paying for water if there was reform and the savings were found and the burden was eased on the taxpayer. But no its just take, take, take. No way I wont pay.

denhaagenite

Highflyer13 wrote: »

This Govt promised reform and we have not got reform. Instead the set up another useless bloated quango. I write this from my laptop as I sit at home having to take another day off work sick as a dog struggling and gasping for breath waiting for the HSE to come and get me. I nearly died last Christmas ffs. Their solution was to put me on an inhaler and send me to a consultant. Im still waiting to see that consultant. Im told it will be probably after Christmas. F**k it I've had enough. I have worked and paid my taxes since the day I left school. Also I am always educating and bettering myself and contribute to society and various causes.

From my position its hard to see how this shower in Govt put people first. Society is falling apart around us. Anybody who doesn't see that is a fool.

I would have no problem paying for water if there was reform and the savings were found and the burden was eased on the taxpayer. But no its just take, take, take. No way I wont pay.

I'm sorry for your situation, it sounds really horrific. But going back to my point above, your issue is with lack of health services, maybe more broadly austerity, not with water charges. If there's going to be a protest it needs to have a point, not just general anger. If you came home to find you had been broken into would call the guards or the ambulance? Both emergency services, but serving different purposes.

Larbre34

Barely There wrote: »

The 'people' are one homogenised mass are they?

I would say so, in fact you know them well. They're the ones, like me, who are tired of being "reasonable".

You have your view. My view is that Irish Water will entirely cease to exist before the end of the decade, due to a combination of EU legality, a lack of revenue and a change of national policy direction brought about by one or more changes of Government.

Barely There

Highflyer13 wrote: »

This Govt promised reform and we have not got reform. Instead the set up another useless bloated quango. I write this from my laptop as I sit at home having to take another day off work sick as a dog struggling and gasping for breath waiting for the HSE to come and get me. I nearly died last Christmas ffs. Their solution was to put me on an inhaler and send me to a consultant. Im still waiting to see that consultant. Im told it will be probably after Christmas. F**k it I've had enough. I have worked and paid my taxes since the day I left school. Also I am always educating and bettering myself and contribute to society and various causes.

From my position its hard to see how this shower in Govt put people first. Society is falling apart around us. Anybody who doesn't see that is a fool.

I would have no problem paying for water if there was reform and the savings were found and the burden was eased on the taxpayer. But no its just take, take, take. No way I wont pay.

So basically you're bemoaning having a crap Health Service and having to pay more taxes.

What's your solution, get the money fairies to deliver a big bag of gold that we can invest in the HSE?

donvito99

Barely There wrote: »

So basically you're bemoaning having a crap Health Service and having to pay more taxes.

What's your solution, get the money fairies to deliver a big bag of gold that we can invest in the HSE?

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

Little CuChulainn

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

Any of the protesters care to explain the opposition to the installation of water meters?

Most of the objections have been nullified by government concessions. The main objections now are based on paranoia about the future sale of Irish Water, anger about the mistakes that were made, objection to the cost of running Irish Water and claims that 160 a year is too much and will be increased dramatically.

Barely There

Larbre34 wrote: »

I would say so, in fact you know them well. They're the ones, like me, who are tired of being "reasonable".

I'm not really interested in what the protestors are 'tired of' or against. I'd like to hear their alternatives.
It's damn easy to wave a placard and shout an over-simplified slogan, rather more difficult to come up with a workable alternative.


These is where the protests have failed - there is no 'message' to Government telling them what 'the people' want. Only a vague, undefined 'I'm tired of austerity' rant.

The Government will do what they always do in such circumstances - throw money at the problem - in this case, a reduction in income taxes in the last budget and more to come in the next.

denhaagenite

donvito99 wrote: »

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

I'd like to see a breakdown.

Certainly there is a huge amount of waste, but I think it probably has more to do with an abundance of civil servants than anything else. TDs and IW management pay is salt in the wound but I think money will only be saved from getting rid of people who are useless and unnecessary. Redundancy will cost short term but it's better in the long run.

Barely There

donvito99 wrote: »

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

Please let that be a joke.

Phoebas

donvito99 wrote: »

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

Could you narrow it down to the nearest €10 billion? :P

yipeeeee

Barely There wrote: »

Please let that be a joke.

Note it could be 15 or 30 BILLION.


Huge amount of research done to come up with such an accurate estimate.

keithclancy

donvito99 wrote: »

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

So somewhere between the GDP of Senegal and Latvia.

:cool:

Are you sure you didn't mean Roubles?

Breffnigolfer

donvito99 wrote: »

Cutting TDs and Irish Water Execs pay, as well as stamping out cronyism will lead to savings in excess of, I'd say, €15 - 30 billion... easy.

Safe to say maths isn't a strong point of yours?

Barely There

yipeeeee wrote: »

Note it could be 15 or 30 BILLION.


Huge amount of research done to come up with such an accurate estimate.

It's certainly impressive given we spend €35bn on SW and Health combined, which are our two biggest outlays.

That's a hell of a lot of cronyism he's identified.

Breffnigolfer

From
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/tdssenators/salariesallowances/
Current Salary Rates for Oireachtas Members
The annual salary rates for Members of the Oireachtas are:

TD: €87,258
Senator: €65,000

In fairness, Enda Kenny tried to scrap the Seanad and lost so, in a democratic country, we must abide by the result, we cannot, therefore, complain about its cost.

We have 166 TDs. If we average their salaries at €100k (being generous), that would make the entire sum of their salaries (which is what the poster identified as a cost saving measure) you have the sum of €16,600,000 per year. Iwe paid them nothing we'd save €15 billion in about 900 years!

Rubber_Soul

It's obvious from DonVito's posting history that he was being sarcastic.

Satriale

Ah, now i know what a circle jerk is. Thanks lads!

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

Oh, you mean the post where I pointed out an article from The Journal where the Fianna Fail member which has a vested interest in votes.

From that self same article by the way

The party’s Public Expenditure and Reform Spokesperson Seán Fleming said he had found a loophole in the guidelines

“The essential difference between [my] legislation and the Government’s proposal is that Fianna Fáil believes the matter must be dealt with on a statutory basis, not by way of guidelines that have been drawn up to assist Ministers,” Fleming said

You say he has a vested interest in votes are you saying the reverse isn't the case, and again saying the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform denied this was the case is not the same as showing the proof, nowhere in that article does it have any proof, just because a spokesperson from the department says it isn't the case doesn't mean it is.

As far as im concerned unless they have the relevant legislation in black and white printed in that article then it simply isn't the case, I have to see the relevant section with my own eyes before I believe anything this government says anymore to be honest

Shin

Barely There

shinzon wrote: »

You say he has a vested interest in votes are you saying the reverse isn't the case, and again saying the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform denied this was the case is not the same as showing the proof, nowhere in that article does it have any proof, just because a spokesperson from the department says it isn't the case doesn't mean it is.

As far as im concerned unless they have the relevant legislation in black and white printed in that article then it simply isn't the case, I have to see the relevant section with my own eyes before I believe anything this government says anymore to be honest

Shin

Hang on now.

I thought you accepted youtube videos made by interest groups as an appropriate standard of proof for your own views.

Why are you holding others to a higher standard?

shinzon

Barely There wrote: »

Hang on now.

I thought you accepted youtube videos made by interest groups as an appropriate standard of proof for your own views.

Why are you holding others to a higher standard?

Seriously is that the best you can do when you wont even go view the videos I asked you to view to educate yourself to the fact that all legitimate protestors are not dole scrounging scumbags or brick throwers or water balloonists or anything that's bandied about to discredit the anti charge movement.

im not holding anyone to a higher standard all im doing is asking questions which anyone should be doing with a government with this track record and not blindly taking what there saying as absolute gospel

Shin

gladrags

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm sorry for your situation, it sounds really horrific. But going back to my point above, your issue is with lack of health services, maybe more broadly austerity, not with water charges. If there's going to be a protest it needs to have a point, not just general anger. If you came home to find you had been broken into would call the guards or the ambulance? Both emergency services, but serving different purposes.

The protests had a point,that's how IW was exposed for what it was,a corrupt and crooked little arrangement.

The type of obnoxious quango,you,it appears,live and abide by.

Charlie Haughey ,your legacy is alive and well.

Banjo String

StarshipPooper wrote: »

It's obvious from DonVito's posting history that he was being sarcastic.

I thought it was quite obvious too.

Obviously, some people see some things more clearly than others.

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

im not holding anyone to a higher standard all im doing is asking questions which anyone should be doing with a government with this track record and not blindly taking what there saying as absolute gospel

Shin

But nobody is doing this, except you with The Mirror and The Sun and the Right2Water Facebook page. We are all agreeing that some policies are good, some are bad and that there are agendas on both the pro and anti sides. We are saying that it is more sensible to question what the media and interested groups are saying. You are demanding that we blindly accept everything that you are posting, and then demanding we don't blindly accept something that opposes what you are posting. Can't you see this at all? Really???

denhaagenite

gladrags wrote: »

The protests had a point,that's how IW was exposed for what it was,a corrupt and crooked little arrangement.

The protests exposed absolutely nothing, except a savage element in some of the protestors. Someone who wished to educate themselves and others decided to look into IW and told others about it, I don't think any of it was ever hidden- this was an individual act, the protestors only achieved to make a clear system of payment more convoluted and unfair.

gladrags wrote: »

The type of obnoxious quango,you,it appears,live and abide by.

Charlie Haughey ,your legacy is alive and well.

I don't agree with the way IW is run, but feel free to wail about me anyway. Is it any wonder I don't want "peaceful protestors" speaking for me? You can't even string a sentence together. Hysterical.

shinzon

denhaagenite wrote: »

But nobody is doing this, except you with The Mirror and The Sun and the Right2Water Facebook page. We are all agreeing that some policies are good, some are bad and that there are agendas on both the pro and anti sides. We are saying that it is more sensible to question what the media and interested groups are saying. You are demanding that we blindly accept everything that you are posting, and then demanding we don't blindly accept something that opposes what you are posting. Can't you see this at all? Really???

im not demanding anyone take anything I link as gospel, but if you come onto a forum and blindly say somethings not true then im going to ask you or anyone for proof not assumption not assertion or a hunch or anything else just proof to back up the claims anyone on here makes, and just an an aside I have linked a total of one red top article on here and that's the mirror.

if you have proof show it otherwise dont expect not to be pulled up on it, that's all im saying

Shin

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

We're dealing with the here and now. Just getting to this point of an complete and utter clusterf**k has already put the state/IW in hock for a further billion. The auction politics charges we are now looking at, 60/160, will take a decade and a half to make a dent in that if they are trying to pay for infrastructure in the meantime.

People will not stand for the echoes of the HSE in IW, so that will have to go. People will not stand for Govt bungling in this and other matters, so they will be going too.

A complete reworking of PAYE/PRSI/USC will be required to properly reduce the tax burden and move to a polluter pays model in Water, Health and other big exchequer money pits. That will take a generation.

Then we have the loss of hearts and minds on the conservation issue. The Govt bet its house on metering, then jettisoned their necessity in a panic to save their own skins. People wont forget that in a hurry either, cynicism grows ever more. And that equipment will probably have failed by 2019. Itll make the e-voting machines scandal look like a misplaced box of biros.

Your whole notion that this will be "normalised" in a decade is deluded fantasy island stuff. It will take at least that long on going backwards to undo this mess before they can begin moving properly forward.

very well though out and well written post - I agree with everything in it

Barely There

Barely There wrote: »

No, it's been cancelled due to public disinterest.

you wish !

your disinterest maybe - not the public's..