IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

falan

the groutch wrote:

there will be a lot of people who registered early, and now regret it following the leaking of various info, especially the money wasted in setting it up, and the cronyism in board member appointment.

My parents fall into this category. They signed up months ago and regret it ever since. They have been to a number of protests and are not paying. I won't be paying and neither is my sister. That's 3 bills alone in my immediate family.

falan

Barely There wrote:

No, it's been cancelled due to public disinterest.

we'll see.

Tony EH

denhaagenite wrote: »

Then they need to make a separation. Are people so inarticulate that they don't know that there are differences between issues?

Why?

Are those who wish to disparage so stupid they can't see why people are protesting? They can't understand that there are a range of issues with which people aren't happy with?

It's not that hard.

denhaagenite

denhaagenite wrote: »

Then they need to make a separation. Are people so inarticulate that they don't know that there are differences between issues? Should we just call the protests "The straw that broke the camels back", creating a sufficient amount of ambiguity so that you can protest about anything you want?

People are not inarticulate...... for weeks and weeks and pages and pages of posts people have being saying "exactly" what they are upset about. It doesn't matter if this is called anti water, anti austerity, anti Enda, anti Government, anti homelessness, anti having a pain in my arse being broke for the last 5 years.......

at least people at last have the courage and resolve to stand up and be counted and stop being sheep. Yes I pay tax, have worked all my life etc etc etc..... But I just have no more money to pay for anything. I pay all my taxes and bills but have nothing left - something's gotta give.

other nationalities are brave enough and confident enough to voice their issues - its about time we in Ireland "grew a pair" too. What's wrong with protesting about the entire collective issues of austerity???? I don't care if its not simply about Irish Water anymore. Why is that a problem?

No I dont have the answers and solutions. I'm not an economist or a government minister. They are paid huge salaries and pensions to do exactly that - make changes, seek resolutions and other ways of balancing the books and paying the bills..... just like I do at the end of every week.

falan

falan wrote: »

My parents fall into this category. They signed up months ago and regret it ever since. They have been to a number of protests and are not paying. I won't be paying and neither is my sister. That's 3 bills alone in my immediate family.

same here - sent my PPS number and form in October - but I wont be paying now. A lot has happened since then.

oceanman

Deleted User wrote: »

People are not inarticulate...... for weeks and weeks and pages and pages of posts people have being saying "exactly" what they are upset about. It doesn't matter if this is called anti water, anti austerity, anti Enda, anti Government, anti homelessness, anti having a pain in my arse being broke for the last 5 years.......

at least people at last have the courage and resolve to stand up and be counted and stop being sheep. Yes I pay tax, have worked all my life etc etc etc..... But I just have no more money to pay for anything. I pay all my taxes and bills but have nothing left - something's gotta give.

other nationalities are brave enough and confident enough to voice their issues - its about time we in Ireland "grew a pair" too. What's wrong with protesting about the entire collective issues of austerity???? I don't care if its not simply about Irish Water anymore. Why is that a problem?

No I dont have the answers and solutions. I'm not an economist or a government minister. They are paid huge salaries and pensions to do exactly that - make changes, seek resolutions and other ways of balancing the books and paying the bills..... just like I do at the end of every week.

+1 well said..

Tinkersbell

Deleted User wrote: »

same here - sent my PPS number and form in October - but I wont be paying now. A lot has happened since then.

Careful now, they'll be classing you a shinner......

donvito99

ROCKMAN wrote: »

However I would argue that we are united in away ,We are both unhappy with the way things are at the moment and I'll hazard a guess your protest like mind will come in the from of a vote at the next general election

I'm quite happy - save for IW - with the Gov and will be voting for the Gov at the next election at the mo. Voted Labour #1 last time, won't happen now under Burton, will have to vote FG, irrespective of my dislike for Kenny. FG could do a lot better I feel with Varadkar, Hayes, even Harris at the helm. If Noonan wasn't so old and his voice so feckin ridiculous he could contend also.

*await accusation of idiocy, repugnancy to Rising leaders, fascism etc.

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

Ah I see your back to your usual tricks of deflection and mirrors good was wondering when that would turn up as shows you have no real argument at all

I repeat again saying something is false doesnt make it true, its an assumption an assertion nothing more

If the department wanted to bury Sean Flemings argument all they had to do is give the section of the legislation where it specifically states where hes wrong bobs your uncle marys your aunt case closed they didn't do that so how has that in anyway refuted the mirror article, it hasn't simple as

and as for your patronising last point same to you don't try and link articles that proves nothing and you wont have any problems either

Shin

Hang on, you were the one with a statement that was not valid.

I did nothing but post a valid article with points on both sides of the story.

Are we back to Progressive Tax yet :pac::pac: ?

denhaagenite

ROCKMAN wrote: »

And that's your right ,However I would argue that we are united in away ,We are both unhappy with the way things are at the moment and I'll hazard a guess your protest like mind will come in the from of a vote at the next general election .
Water issues have taken myself and my family to the streets ,and after seen how it has had an effect on the government I fully intend to continue.
Now I'm been completely delusional and ****all will change but maybe just maybe these protests could be the start of something very real and I am willing to give it time and effort.

It wouldn't (if I could vote in Ireland anymore). I don't think the government are doing a terrible job on most things. They are just copying systems that are working in other EU countries and since I reside in one of those countries I can tell you that they work and are unfortunately expensive. I object to the retaining of people who are not wanted or needed from various county councils for use in IW, and the management that have been taken from other collapsed quangos. That's it. Not water charges, water meters, the government or austerity.

Tony EH wrote: »

Why?

Are those who wish to disparage so stupid they can't see why people are protesting? They can't understand that there are a range of issues with which people aren't happy with?

It's not that hard.

I think we know it is that hard for some people. Some people think that rates of employment aren't really improving. Some people who have been on welfare payments for years, since well before the recession, think that they will be paying for their water aswell.

Deleted User wrote: »

People are not inarticulate...... for weeks and weeks and pages and pages of posts people have being saying "exactly" what they are upset about. It doesn't matter if this is called anti water, anti austerity, anti Enda, anti Government, anti homelessness, anti having a pain in my arse being broke for the last 5 years.......

I think many aren't articulate enough, and that's why they have resorted to abusing and personally attacking people installing water meters, posting clips from videos showing nothing but contempt for Gardaí, quoting from tabloids and Facebook pages. I don't want to be lumped in with that calibre of person. Protest about what you like but make it clear what you are protesting about.

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

Hang on, you were the one with a statement that was not valid.

I did nothing but post a valid article with points on both sides of the story.

Are we back to Progressive Tax yet :pac::pac: ?

Both sides of what you keep missing the point, the journal article said that sean fleming found a loop hole in the guidelines and the department said he was incorrect

That does not refute anything in the mirror article, there is nothing there but a nameless spokesman from the department saying hes incorrect, where is the proof are we supposed to believe it cause someone said it without any shred of evidence to the contrary. I think not

Until someone produces line verse paragraph and subsection of the relevant document to say hes incorrect the journal article is completely meaningless and refutes nothing

Shin

denhaagenite

shinzon wrote: »

Both sides of what you keep missing the point, the journal article said that sean fleming found a loop hole in the guidelines and the department said he was incorrect

That does not refute anything in the mirror article, there is nothing there but a nameless spokesman from the department saying hes incorrect, where is the proof are we supposed to believe it cause someone said it without any shred of evidence to the contrary. I think not

Until someone produces line verse paragraph and subsection of the relevant document to say hes incorrect the journal article is completely meaningless and refutes nothing

Shin

With your logic Fleming needs to produce the loophole to prove that what he's saying is correct actually.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Most of the objections have been nullified by government concessions. The main objections now are based on paranoia about the future sale of Irish Water, anger about the mistakes that were made, objection to the cost of running Irish Water and claims that 160 a year is too much and will be increased dramatically.

You forgot about the radiation emitting from the metres!

shinzon

denhaagenite wrote: »

With your logic Fleming needs to produce the loophole to prove that what he's saying is correct actually.

No he doesn't as hes already found the loophole and has explained his rationale in the self same bible journal article that Keith Clancy has been banging on about

the onus of proof is on the department because there telling him hes incorrect

Shin

keithclancy

gladrags wrote: »

In financial terms you are much better off,in spite of Kenny and IW...

As a direct result of the protests.

So a big THANK YOU is in order.

In Financial Terms the country is much worse off.

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

No he doesn't as hes already found the loophole and has explained his rationale in the self same bible journal article that Keith Clancy has been banging on about

the onus of proof is on the department because there telling him hes incorrect

Shin

So it's one rule for Fleming and another for yourself.

Tinkersbell

keithclancy wrote: »

In Financial Terms the country is much worse off.

€1.1 billion ahead of expected in tax revenue according to noonan....
Who does the sums for these lads?
How can they be €1.1 billion out??

Tinkersbell

Tinkersbell wrote: »

€1.1 billion ahead of expected in tax revenue according to noonan....
Who does the sums for these lads?
How can they be €1.1 billion out??

More people working and paying Income Tax. More people spending and paying VAT.

shinzon

keithclancy wrote: »

So it's one rule for Fleming and another for yourself.

nope wrong again your getting good at this, his evidence is the loophole in the guidelines, wheres the department has presented nothing except hes incorrect, without saying why hes incorrect where in the legislation it is etc etc etc

Burden of proof is on them not fleming but im sure youll continue to try and have some witty comebacks just to keep the conversation going

So next

Shin

Alun

Deleted User wrote: »

More people working and paying Income Tax. More people spending and paying VAT.

In other words, good news. 1.1bn might sound a ludicrously large amount of money out of context, but it's only 3.5% of the total tax take.

keithclancy

shinzon wrote: »

nope wrong again your getting good at this, his evidence is the loophole in the guidelines, wheres the department has presented nothing except hes incorrect, without saying why hes incorrect where in the legislation it is etc etc etc

Burden of proof is on them not fleming but im sure youll continue to try and have some witty comebacks just to keep the conversation going

So next

Shin

Guilty until proven Innocent .... indeed that's how Ireland works.

Read it again, I think you are becoming confused, Fleming drew up [draft] Legislation, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has drawn up Guidelines to assist ministers.

How could they produce the legislation if they don't have any

_Kaiser_

Alun wrote: »

In other words, good news. 1.1bn might sound a ludicrously large amount of money out of context, but it's only 3.5% of the total tax take.

Expect much more such "good news" between now and the predicted early election as well as Enda and Joan try to convince everyone that it's their "leadership" that has brought us back from the brink..

.. nothing at all to do with a brief resurgence in Europe, private enterprise creating jobs thanks to favourable tax deals that were in place long before the current government

.. oh and don't mind the increasingly serious homeless issue or that rents are skyrocketing in Dublin thanks to NAMAs interference in the market and their complete inaction on the supply side

.. don't worry either about things like Jobbridge, emigration/pushing young people back under Mammy and Daddy's roof (if they can afford to keep them that is, pointless FAS courses, or other such massaging of the true employment stats

.. certainly don't be thinking about the cronyism, corruption, incompetence and scandal that has dogged this government since almost day one as it stumbles aimlessly from crisis to scandal

Just remember to vote for an ex-school teacher who has been suckling from the taxpayer's teat since before 1975, a woman whose party supposedly represents "de working people" yet like Enda's lot abandoned any notion of delivering on their mandate as soon as they got their feet under the desk, and whose only pitch to the electorate so far seems to be "we're still better than SF" :rolleyes:

Breffnigolfer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Expect much more such "good news" between now and the predicted early election as well as Enda and Joan try to convince everyone that it's their "leadership" that has brought us back from the brink..

.. nothing at all to do with a brief resurgence in Europe, private enterprise creating jobs thanks to favourable tax deals that were in place long before the current government

.. oh and don't mind the increasingly serious homeless issue or that rents are skyrocketing in Dublin thanks to NAMAs interference in the market and their complete inaction on the supply side

.. don't worry either about things like Jobbridge, emigration/pushing young people back under Mammy and Daddy's roof (if they can afford to keep them that is, pointless FAS courses, or other such massaging of the true employment stats

.. certainly don't be thinking about the cronyism, corruption, incompetence and scandal that has dogged this government since almost day one as it stumbles aimlessly from crisis to scandal

Just remember to vote for an ex-school teacher who has been suckling from the taxpayer's teat since before 1975, a woman whose party supposedly represents "de working people" yet like Enda's lot abandoned any notion of delivering on their mandate as soon as they got their feet under the desk, and whose only pitch to the electorate so far seems to be "we're still better than SF" :rolleyes:

OK, now you've outlined the above list, please tell us

1. All who should be elected?
2. What policies they should implement?

(Are you denigrating Enda Kenny because he was once, a long time ago, a teacher? Is that the sum of you put-down? You really should be ashamed of yourself)

_Kaiser_

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

OK, now you've outlined the above list, please tell us

1. All who should be elected?
2. What policies they should implement?

As I've said here before you've actually raised a very good point there... where DO we go next??

- FF who wrecked the place buying election after election

- FG who have shown themselves to be just as bad (two sides of the same coin really) except with added arrogance. There's a good reason why FG have never seen a second consecutive term

- LAB who similarly sold out their supporters for a seat at the trough and who like the Greens and PDs before them will pay for it next time out by being annihilated

- Independents who are parochial one-trick ponies in most cases

- "New" parties that really are just a mix of rejects from the above

- SF, who despite surging in the polls will never actually get in to government as despite all the above, most "reasonable" :rolleyes: people won't actually vote for them on the day, and the rest of their supporters don't vote in great numbers historically

So to answer your question - and in all seriousness - I really don't know who we vote for next, but voting for more of the same and expecting a different result isn't likely to work either!

_Kaiser_

Breffnigolfer wrote: »

OK, now you've outlined the above list, please tell us

1. All who should be elected?
2. What policies they should implement?

(Are you denigrating Enda Kenny because he was once, a long time ago, a teacher? Is that the sum of you put-down? You really should be ashamed of yourself)

I'm "denigrating" Kenny because he has never actually done anything beyond live off the taxpayer. He "inherited" his Daddy's seat and has been a career politician since. It's no wonder he's out of touch with the electorate - he's been living off them for almost 40 years.

He was nearly ousted by his own party a few years back remember but survived to get his shot at the big chair when he became Taoiseach of the country - whereupon he went off to Europe and told them we all went mad, and came back as the EU's poster boy for Austerity pushing the same policies of his predecessors - policies he assured us he would change, taking a new approach to things, and leading a sea change of transparency and reform of our political system.

Well, we all know how that's worked out don't we? Hogan, Shatter, Reilly.. the IW debacle is merely the latest example of the "same old same old".
Anytime anything comes out that would require actual leadership, Kenny goes on the missing list and we get the usual parade of Ministers contradicting each other on the news.

That is why I'm "denigrating" Enda Kenny - arguably the worst "Leader" this country has ever had.. and considering the two that came before him that's some - maybe his only! - achievement.

donvito99

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- FG who have shown themselves to be just as bad (two sides of the same coin really) except with added arrogance. There's a good reason why FG have never seen a second consecutive term

Disagree here, just as bad? Fúcking hardly. Aside from Bruton's alleged tax dodging, and the friendliness involving IW appointements, this pales in comparison to the decades of successive corrupt FF taoisigh, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern. Not to mention deputies like Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke, P Flynn, Seán Doherty. The list goes on and on.

Arrogance? I'd perceive any hint of this as some where-with-all and stoicism that ought to be welcomed. None of this roll over populist stuff from the present opposition.

FG never seen a consecutive term? Pre 1937, no? And I know of no reason - and I'd like you to give me some - as to why FG lost a 2nd term by way of corruption or 'arrogance'. Children's shoes, maybe. Giveaways by Lynch, of course. But absolutely nothing that could class them as being two sides of the same coin with FF. On the political spectrum, practically and ideologically, sure.

donvito99

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Enda Kenny - arguably the worst "Leader" this country has ever had...

The worst leader.... until the next one. This is all unsubstantiated and piss poor argument at that.

If we're to consider Haughey, stinkingly corrupt and inept at times, and Ahern, equally as corrupt and responsible for the crash, as well as Cowen (don't forget him) who was pathetic in every way, as being better leaders than Kenny, who in his time as taoiseach has objectively amply improved the nation's economic standing in a single Dáil term?

_Kaiser_

donvito99 wrote: »

Disagree here, just as bad? Fúcking hardly. Aside from Bruton's alleged tax dodging, and the friendliness involving IW appointements, this pales in comparison to the decades of successive corrupt FF taoisigh, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern. Not to mention deputies like Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke, P Flynn, Seán Doherty. The list goes on and on.

Arrogance? I'd perceive any hint of this as some where-with-all and stoicism that ought to be welcomed. None of this roll over populist stuff from the present opposition.

FG never seen a consecutive term? Pre 1937, no? And I know of no reason - and I'd like you to give me some - as to why FG lost a 2nd term by way of corruption or 'arrogance'. Children's shoes, maybe. Giveaways by Lynch, of course. But absolutely nothing that could class them as being two sides of the same coin with FF. On the political spectrum, practically and ideologically, sure.

You could argue that the reason we haven't seen the same levels of corruption is because FG only seem to get elected when FF need a hiding

But we've seen this term that they're more than capable of running with the "big boys" in that regard haven't we?

Arrogance - Kenny and his gang of 4 "Economic Management Council" have completely subverted the democratic process (something even his own backbenchers are complaining about), and let's not forget Kenny himself lecturing us on TV like the schoolkids he once taught about how we will pay our bills, while in the next breath saying the crisis wasn't our fault.

Then there's his unwillingness to debate or justify himself to the electorate (because yes, he serves us - not the other way around!) unless safely hidden on a closed set, or hurling childish abuse at SF in the Dail chambers.

Let's not forget that while FF brought us to the edge of the cliff with their populist vote buying (which FG enthusiastically cheered on from the opposition benches I might add!), FG stayed late into the night to cement the deal - again with far too little debate.

Let's also note that FG have already started with a two pronged approach of scaremongering with regard to SF (who while I wouldn't support them myself, I have to ask - could they really be any worse? Especially as they'd most likely be tempered by a coalition) and populism by their promises of more tax cuts IF we vote them back in! Fool me once....

So yes, FG have shown themselves to be just as bad as their predecessors - if not worse as the irony with FF is, at least you know what you are getting!

_Kaiser_

donvito99 wrote: »

The worst leader.... until the next one. This is all unsubstantiated and piss poor argument at that.

If we're to consider Haughey, stinkingly corrupt and inept at times, and Ahern, equally as corrupt and responsible for the crash, as well as Cowen (don't forget him) who was pathetic in every way, as being better leaders than Kenny, who in his time as taoiseach has objectively amply improved the nation's economic standing in a single Dáil term?

Hey I'm not disagreeing with you that FF are no better and that (in recent times) Haughey and Ahern particularly set new lows in Irish politics.. but don't forget that one still got a hero's state funeral and the other was revered as the everyman who was cute enough to get out before the real crash occurred.

Looking back on it, yes Cowen was hopelessly inept and out of his depth and an empty suit really at the time the country needed a strong leader .. but he was thrown under the bus to save Bertie after all - remember Haughey himself said of his apprentice that ""He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."

Kenny however came in "fresh", promising change, reform, transparency and a new approach to the crisis.. then continued on the same course to Austerity his predecessors had set (still, he became best friends with Merkel and Sarkozy for it I suppose and even got a European of the Year award out of it so that makes it worthwhile...), while adopting a "wait and see" approach to any recovery. I wouldn't be crediting him with it anyway, despite the media spin and his willingness to claim credit for every job announcement.

That is why he's worse IMO - because he had the chance to follow through on his promises and electoral mandate to change things without the baggage of FF .. and instead we got a weak, arrogant man who has been led around by his EU "betters" at every turn and who sold out his own people to ensure the gravy train would continue for himself, his party, and their hangers-on ... JUST like FF!

Highflyer13

Tbf I think if FG got into Government as often as FF have they would be found to have similar levels of corruption & cronyism. Obviously Fianna Fails corruption was off the charts but all signs showing that FG have very similar motives.