IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

AboutaWeekAgo

Falthyron wrote: »

Hmm.. I didn't tar anyone with the same brush. I asked a question. I asked why did the protest struggle to hit more than 40,000 when people on Social Welfare amount to 350,000. Many of the anti-IW people blame this government for the high unemployment, surely if that is the case, those 350,000 would be out marching with them? Or is there another reason for the lack of numbers? Again, a question.

I already answered this a few page back but you didn't seem to reply. A return train ticket to Dublin can cost anywhere from €30 -€80, if someone is unemployed and receiving social welfare how do you think they could afford to go? Add ontop of train fare that they have to get food for the day and you're looking at the bones of €100 if you're lucky!

That would leave the average person on social welfare with €88 to pay bills, eat and whatever else they need. Surely you can see why 350,000 didn't travel.

shinzon

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So the guards should continue to use kid gloves on these idiots and let them disrupt the lives of hundreds of thousands of people? They should have been told to move and if they refused then the guards should have used WHATEVER force necessary to move them, Whether that force is batons, tear gas or K9 units then so be it but no way should they be let hold a city of over a million to ransom.

what are you talking about, O Connell street isnt the only thoroughfare through Dublin, convenient for people yes, but are you seriously telling me the entire population of Dublin suddenly couldnt get anywhere cause there was a few gob****es sitting on a bridge, please spare me

WHATEVER

So im assuming you mean anything, you aren't saying reasonable force so guns would be ok to is that what your actually saying

Shin

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

That's not "asking a question", don't try and pass off that bollocks with me.

You're making an insinuation.

Calm down, Tony. Asking questions is perfectly legitimate. It is quite a simple question, and I felt it would contribute to the debate to give reasons why a large proportion of a particular group in society were not able to make a protest which is to their benefit.

Falthyron

Banjo String wrote: »

How many people in support of Irish Water took to the streets in a show of support?

Organise your own, anti - anti Irish Water meter protests, report back on how you get on.

I am not anti-anti-IW, or pro-IW, or pro-FG/Lab. And as I mentioned before, when people support something they tend to just 'let it be'.

DamagedTrax

Falthyron wrote: »

There, there. You tried to explain your case with big statements lacking evidence, and empty words without meaning.

9/10 for a fiction-piece, would read again.

so let me get this straight...

you think that in 3 threads worth of arguing, that if (IF) thats how protest numbers worked, somebody from the IW side wouldnt have jumped on it before now?

you think you've stumbled upon some new way of gauging public reaction? :pac:

ROCKMAN

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

I already answered this a few page back but you didn't seem to reply. A return train ticket to Dublin can cost anywhere from €30 -€80, if someone is unemployed and receiving social welfare how do you think they could afford to go? Add ontop of train fare that they have to get food for the day and you're looking at the bones of €100 if you're lucky!

That would leave the average person on social welfare with €88 to pay bills, eat and whatever else they need. Surely you can see why 350,000 didn't travel.

Or even if you go with Travelling up yesterday on one of the many buses that where available ,They were charging around 10 euros on average, add in a bit of grub and a cup of tea and it's a minimum of between 15-20 euros (which will surprise some on here) is still unaffordable if you are on 188 a week or worse still 100 a week like a lot of young people.

Falthyron

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

I already answered this a few page back but you didn't seem to reply. A return train ticket to Dublin can cost anywhere from €30 -€80, if someone is unemployed and receiving social welfare how do you think they could afford to go? Add ontop of train fare that they have to get food for the day and you're looking at the bones of €100 if you're lucky!

That would leave the average person on social welfare with €88 to pay bills, eat and whatever else they need. Surely you can see why 350,000 didn't travel.

Again, if we take this website as a good measurement of unemployment in Ireland: link

We can see the numbers for South Dublin alone are roughly 48,400 are unemployed. North Dublin, I understand is higher, than South Dublin, so that figure is at least doubled when considering all of Dublin. Almost 100,000 unemployed in Dublin. Then we have Kildare, Meath, and Wicklow who all have access to trains and buses to Dublin at a very reasonable rate. One could argue, upwards of 140,000 people on Social Welfare could have made the protest with less than 10 euro in expenses. That is only one group in society. One group who are feeling the pinch that little bit more than other groups.

Reasons for not going I addressed in previous posts; e.g. children.

Doctor Jimbob

Falthyron wrote: »

Calm down, Tony. Asking questions is perfectly legitimate. It is quite a simple question, and I felt it would contribute to the debate to give reasons why a large proportion of a particular group in society were not able to make a protest which is to their benefit.

Looks to me like you're attempting to make implications about those on social welfare.

Falthyron

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Looks to me like you're attempting to make implications about those on social welfare.

Am I? And what implications would they be? Again, you should check out my previous posts if you are looking for clarity.

keithclancy

Banjo String wrote: »

How many people in support of Irish Water took to the streets in a show of support?

Organise your own, anti - anti Irish Water meter protests, report back on how you get on.

The only topic for the organisers (Right2Water) was no water charges.

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

Calm down, Tony. Asking questions is perfectly legitimate. It is quite a simple question, and I felt it would contribute to the debate to give reasons why a large proportion of a particular group in society were not able to make a protest which is to their benefit.

I am very calm, I can assure you. I can also assure you that I can spot a disingenuous post when I see one as well.

You're not "asking questions" and you're not doing anything to "contribute to the debate".

You're insinuating something of a very large group of people that anybody genuine would think twice about doing.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

I am very calm, I can assure you. I can also assure you that I can spot a disingenuous post when I see one as well.

You're not "asking questions" and you're not doing anything to "contribute to the debate".

You're insinuating something of a very large group of people that anybody genuine would think twice about doing.

I would be very grateful if you could drop the ambiguity and tell me what I am supposed to be insinuating.

Banjo String

Falthyron wrote: »

I am not anti-anti-IW, or pro-IW, or pro-FG/Lab. And as I mentioned before, when people support something they tend to just 'let it be'.

What has attracted you to this thread so?

falan

Falthyron wrote:

Oh, so it is a matter of convenience then? It was convenient for those to send back the 900,000* packs, but inconvenient for them to turn up to protest.

That is the protest for many people. It doesn't mean they will pay.

ROCKMAN

Falthyron wrote: »

Again, if we take this website as a good measurement of unemployment in Ireland: link

We can see the numbers for South Dublin alone are roughly 48,400 are unemployed. North Dublin, I understand is higher, than South Dublin, so that figure is at least doubled when considering all of Dublin. Almost 100,000 unemployed in Dublin. Then we have Kildare, Meath, and Wicklow who all have access to trains and buses to Dublin at a very reasonable rate. One could argue, upwards of 140,000 people on Social Welfare could have made the protest with less than 10 euro in expenses. That is only one group in society. One group who are feeling the pinch that little bit more than other groups.

Reasons for not going I addressed in previous posts; e.g. children.

OK but can you not understand that these 100,000 unemployed Dubliners were well represented yesterday at the protests like all walks of Irish society were.
Just say we use the figure of 2000 which would be a very reasonable figure, So if 2000 unemployed Dublin people attended yesterday that would be a ratio of 1 in 50 which is a great Ratio once you consider the Dail operates on a 1 to 27,000 (approx.) representative ratio.

Falthyron

Banjo String wrote: »

What has attracted you to this thread so?

The debate. I enjoy reading the arguments made for/against the protest. However, I can't help being drawn into the thread by the general hyperbole invoked by users such as StreetWalker with statements like: "this government is over", or "100,000 patriots", and, my personal favourite, "200,000 in January".

There are flaws on both sides, but the anti-IW group are not helping themselves with vacuous and grandiose statements such as the ones above. No, the government hasn't fallen and no, the 'people*' haven't won a major victory or sent a huge message with yesterday's protest.

*People equalling (with anti-IW figures), 100,000 or, 2.17% of the population.

gaius c

According to the Matt Cooper show last night, one of the groups blocking the bridge were the "New Land League" group led by former property developer and FF executive member Jerry Beades. People will probably remember them for the sabotage of an Allsops auction and the "Constant Markievicz" comedy gold.

KERSPLAT!

shinzon wrote: »

What happened after the march yesterday was codology and I don't agree with it but to publicly say on a forum somebody deserves to have a dog hanging off them is disgusting

Ill probably get banned for this but I get an infraction yesterday for apparently baiting keith clancy but yet this is allowed, seems a bit skewed to me

Shin

No you didn't.

Kersp

DamagedTrax

Falthyron wrote: »

*People equalling (with anti-IW figures), 100,000 or, 2.17% of the population.

given that 21.5% of the population arent even 14 years old, you might want to rethink your figures.

also our birth rate is nearly 2.5 times the death rate, that figure is rising exponentially for the moment anyway.

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

The debate. I enjoy reading the arguments made for/against the protest. However, I can't help being drawn into the thread by the general hyperbole invoked by users such as StreetWalker with statements like: "this government is over", or "100,000 patriots", and, my personal favourite, "200,000 in January".

There are flaws on both sides, but the anti-IW group are not helping themselves with vacuous and grandiose statements such as the ones above. No, the government hasn't fallen and no, the 'people*' haven't won a major victory or sent a huge message with yesterday's protest.

*People equalling (with anti-IW figures), 100,000 or, 2.17% of the population.

You really think that little sneering remarks like

Oh, so it is a matter of convenience then? It was convenient for those to send back the 900,000* packs, but inconvenient for them to turn up to protest

is "adding to debate"?



And if you really think that hundreds of thousands of people marching on three separate occasions isn't sending a huge message, then you really cannot be helped.

Falthyron

ROCKMAN wrote: »

OK but can you not understand that these 100,000 unemployed Dubliners were well represented yesterday at the protests like all walks of Irish society were.
Just say we use the figure of 2000 which would be a very reasonable figure, So if 2000 unemployed Dublin people attended yesterday that would be a ratio of 1 in 50 which is a great Ratio once you consider the Dail operates on a 1 to 27,000 (approx.) representative ratio.

Firstly, that ratio is based on the assumption that it was 2,000 out of a total 100,000 who turned out, but that figure is way off the mark. The best estimates (from a range of sources) seems to be 30,000-40,000.

Secondly, your ratio would have to be 2,000 of 350,000 as that is the total unemployed. So that would be 0.51% of the Social Welfare group turning out to represent that group.

I see what you are trying to say, and I do appreciate it, but the numbers trouble me. I am currently unemployed, and if I felt harshly done by this government I would have gone out to protest. I reckon I am in the minority in terms of who or what to blame for my unemployment, but I imagine a lot of those who are unemployed suffered because of cut-backs and companies closing down as a result of policies made by the government. 350,000 potential protesters from just one group, and only 30,000-40,000 from ALL groups turned out. That has to be an indicator as to what public sentiment actually is.

Banjo String

keithclancy wrote: »

The only topic for the organisers (Right2Water) was no water charges.

Could've sworn I heard Brendan Ogle (among others) call for the complete disbandment of Irish Water, and for an end to water charges and metering yesterday.

Maybe you were there too, and you heard differently

Falthyron

DamagedTrax wrote: »

given that 21.5% of the population arent even 14 years old, you might want to rethink your figures.

4,588,000 divided by 100,000 (anti-IW group estimates) = 2.17%.

There were women pushing prams on the streets yesterday with babies in them, should we start discarded the babies from the anti-IW figures as well? In the interest of fairness...

Neamhshuntasach

donvito99 wrote: »

Good morning. This is what 3,701 people looks like.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4kT6wtIcAA-kzP.jpg:large

Yeah there was no way yesterday had 27 times the amount of people in that picture. From the aerial view i had before heading down late to the protest. I'd guess it was close enough to 50K maybe. I've seen numerous protests from this view. Including the anti war one in 2003 and the last national protest in October. Yesterday's was way way smaller than the anti war one. And looked a fair bit smaller than the last anti water one. Anyone saying 100K is exaggerating the hell out of the figures.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

You really think that little sneering remarks like is "adding to debate"?



And if you really think that hundreds of thousands of people marching on three separate occasions isn't sending a huge message, then you really cannot be helped.

I am not asking for help. I am observing and trying to stay as impartial as possible by asking questions. At least I answer all mine (you didn't clarify who I am insinuating certain things about a particular group in society).

4,588,000 people in the Republic of Ireland. Can you provide me with accurate sources for the "hundreds of thousands of people" that marches on three separate occasions? Also, are we including the same people who marched on all three occasions? If so, then it's the same 100,000.

Tony EH

Banjo String wrote: »

Could've sworn I heard Brendan Ogle (among others) call for the complete disbandment of Irish Water, and for an end to water charges and metering yesterday.

Maybe you were there too, and you heard differently

He must have huge ears, or something. :pac:

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

I am not asking for help. I am observing and trying to stay as impartial as possible by asking questions. At least I answer all mine (you didn't clarify who I am insinuating certain things about a particular group in society).

4,588,000 people in the Republic of Ireland. Can you provide me with accurate sources for the "hundreds of thousands of people" that marches on three separate occasions? Also, are we including the same people who marched on all three occasions? If so, then it's the same 100,000.

You're not the slightest bit impartial. Don't be ridiculous.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

You're not the slightest bit impartial. Don't be ridiculous.

Show me exactly where I support either side. Check my post history for this thread. Also, you still aren't answering my question.

DamagedTrax

Falthyron wrote: »

4,588,000 divided by 100,000 (anti-IW group estimates) = 2.17%.

There were women pushing prams on the streets yesterday with babies in them, should we start discarded the babies from the anti-IW figures as well? In the interest of fairness...

yes we probably should, unfortunately for you they didnt make up anywhere near the 21.% that they make of the overall population.

if we take a number halfway between the cops and the organisers. say 60,000. i would imagine at most 5% was kids. so that still leaves us 57,000 as a conservative estimate.

the cops said merrion square would hold 60,000 and people were turned back because it was full.

so according to the cops, 60,000 is our base number despite what their PR section may claim.

if the cops lied about the 60,000 then they should be held accountable for deceiving event organisers and causing a possible health risk to protestors.


so tell us, who lied? the cops when organising the event? or the coppers PR team after the fact. its one or the other, the photographic evidence coupled with their own figure on what the square would hold, clearly shows they cant both be telling the truth.

Falthyron

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yes we probably should, unfortunately for you they didnt make up anywhere near the 21.% that they make of the overall population.

if we take a number halfway between the cops and the organisers. say 60,000. i would imagine at most 5% was kids. so that still leaves us 57,000 as a conservative estimate.

the cops said merrion square would hold 60,000 and people were turned back because it was full.

so according to the cops, 60,000 is our base number despite what their PR section may claim.

if the cops lied about the 60,000 then they should be held accountable for deceiving event organisers and causing a possible health risk to protestors.


so tell us, who lied? the cops when organising the event? or the coppers PR team after the fact. its one or the other, the photographic evidence coupled with their own figure on what the square would hold, clearly shows they cant both be telling the truth.

4,588,000 = 100% population.
3,645,520 = 79% of the population.
57,000 = your estimate.

3,645,520/57,000 = 1.56%. 1.56% of the 'available' or 'eligible' population turned out for the protest yesterday.