IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Pigfoot

Streetwalker wrote: »

It will it's inevitable at this stage. The only questions remains is how long it takes and will it bring the government down with it.

They deserve to be brought down and hard. The make up and realisation of IW and conduct if the Government could not have wound up the population any more had it been planned by Frankie Boyle. Honestly are they utterly thick.
Considering that we've been through Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor and co. The banker tapes, Cowen and all of the Galway Races Tent/brown envelope/back handers ****e.......you all know the story, how utterly retarded must they be to think that they could get away this circus of cronyism, golden hand shakes and stroke politics that would make Haughey blush.i get the need for investment in our water system but I will not contribute to the wages of Tierney, Kearns, Sheehy and their ilk.

tigger123

gandalf wrote: »

All this will do is provide more fuel to the protestors. The speed of the cave in is impressive and all it will do is embolden the protesters to push harder.

From my perspective until Irish Water (as in the resource and not the shambles of a company) is guaranteed via the constitution to stay in the ownership of the Irish People then this isn't over. There is going to be a referendum early next year for same sex marriage they need to add on a second vote to formalise the ownership of water to the Irish People.

As for Irish Water I heard on Newstalk this morning rumblings from SIPTU that 200 staff there might go on strike because of the bonus situation.

From what I understand part of today's announcement by the Government will see legislation announced that will guarantee IW will never be privatized.

SIPTU are right to kick up about the bonuses. If people were hired under the terms of a contract, then those terms should be honoured. It's not ethical to roll back on that.

_Kaiser_

tigger123 wrote: »

From what I understand part of today's announcement by the Government will see legislation announced that will guarantee IW will never be privatized.

As I said above, legislation means nothing.

It can be (and has been) changed at the drop of a hat - even in the dead of night with no/minimal debate.

SIPTU are right to kick up about the bonuses. If people were hired under the terms of a contract that should be honoured. It's not ethical to roll back on that.

How can people be justified bonuses given the absolute clusterf*ck that has been IW to-date?

- The data protection issues
- Mixed messaging
- The piss-poor customer service

etc..

Banjo String

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

As i said



INCOME TAX

Income tax isn't the only form of taxation currently (or previously) funding water.

AudreyHepburn

A few things that strike me here;

1.) I don't understand, and never will, why people think they should be handed all their services for nothing? I understand not wanting to pay twice, but I don't think that's what people want, they just don't want to pay at all. And no country can work like that.

2.) It's been said before, but refusing to pay your water charges isn't going to magically solve the countries problems nor your own personal ones. If anything it will add to them....who do you expect to out food on your table when you receive a huge fine to pay and/or jail time for not paying?

3.)I don't know where people except the money to fix and run the country to come from if not taxes and charges. Enda Kenny isn't Harry Potter, he can't wave a magic wand and make money appear out of thin air, it has to come from somewhere. This idea of taxing the rich only etc won't work either, it's unfair and illogical.

I do understand the anger and I do understand that some people just can't afford another charge, but I have to wonder what the alternatives are? For all the whinging and complaining about more taxes, I have not yet heard another reasonable and workable solution.

tigger123

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As I said above, legislation means nothing.

It can (and has been) changed at the drop of a hat - even in the dead of night with no/minimal debate.



How can people be justified bonuses given the absolute clusterf*ck that has been IW to-date?

- The data protection issues
- Mixed messaging
- The piss-poor customer service

etc..

First off, the fact that it's SIPTU will give an indication of who the bonuses are going to be paid to, ie, rank and file employees. So I don't think we're talking about Fat Cat Banker style bonuses in this instance.

Second, if mistakes are being made at a senior management (strategic) level, It's unfair and unethical to punish those at a lower level in order to placate the public and their anger. The Government are using and abusing the terms of employment of lower level employees to score political points. Which is wrong.

Third, if you're hired under the terms of a contract, those terms should be honoured.

_Kaiser_

They really don't get it at all do they?

Minister Kelly says all will be revealed later, but he says there is nothing "harsh" about the charge package.
He said: "We feel that reasonable people are going to come with us as a result of what I'm going to announce today.

Still at the oul "divide and conquer tactic" then eh?

Howlin though gets the quote of the day...

Meanwhile, The Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin says mistakes were made in setting up Irish Water.
Mr Howlin says he believes the public will be proud in the utility company in years to come.

He said: "To actually put in an infrastructure that in 10, 15, 20 years, we'll be as proud of Irish Water, I believe, as we are now of the ESB or Bord na Mona or any of the other fine State institutions.

Er.... riiiiight there Brendan! :rolleyes:

Pigfoot

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

A few things that strike me here;

1.) I don't understand, and never will, why people think they should be handed all their services for nothing? I understand not wanting to pay twice, but I don't think that's what people want, they just don't want to pay at all. And no country can work like that.

2.) It's been said before, but refusing to pay your water charges isn't going to magically solve the countries problems nor your own personal ones. If anything it will add to them....who do you expect to out food on your table when you receive a huge fine to pay and/or jail time for not paying?

3.)I don't know where people except the money to fix and run the country to come from if not taxes and charges. Enda Kenny isn't Harry Potter, he can't wave a magic wand and make money appear out of thin air, it has to come from somewhere. This idea of taxing the rich only etc won't work either, it's unfair and illogical.

I do understand the anger and I do understand that some people just can't afford another charge, but I have to wonder what the alternatives are? For all the whinging and complaining about more taxes, I have not yet heard another reasonable and workable solution.

And I don't understand why you and other posters keep avoiding post after post stating that many here agree in principle with paying for water but not TO Irish Water as it is not fit for purpose, an insult, an old boys club for Fg buddies with no qualifications just the right connections. Im on a phone here so please Google Hubert Kearns and then tell me why I should contribute 1 cent to his wages.

Penny Tration

Allyall wrote: »

Finally, some sense.
Unravelling the Jobstown spin: throwing water - or eggs - is not a violent protest

Have you ever been hit by an egg or water balloon thrown with force? It fcuking hurts and damn well IS violent.

Varik

yipeeeee wrote: »

How about the people who already pay it through taxes don't get charged for water and the people who don't pay taxes get charged for water??

That way no one pays for water twice.

Simples..

And what about the people who pay tax and still don't get water off the government or those who pay and get undrinkable water.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

... meanwhile the Gardai are raking in the overtime..

Broken record! And inaccurate.

AudreyHepburn

Pigfoot wrote: »

And I don't understand why you and other posters keep avoiding post after post stating that many here agree in principle with paying for water but not TO Irish Water as it is not fit for purpose, an insult, an old boys club for Fg buddies with no qualifications just the right connections. Im on a phone here so please Google Hubert Kearns and then tell me why I should contribute 1 cent to his wages.

I'm not ignoring that, I think IW is a joke too.

My point is that I am not sure that's everyone's objecting too, well some are obviously but not all.

I just hope that the majority are objecting for the right reasons is all.

Timberrrrrrrr

Banjo String wrote: »

Income tax isn't the only form of taxation currently (or previously) funding water.

Can you show me the post where i said it was?

handlemaster

Can we have a vote on who is happy to pay for water and who arent

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

Income tax isn't the only form of taxation currently (or previously) funding water.

What's this? Have you finally realized that if and when IW beds down central taxation will be the previous way water will have been funded?

KERSPLAT!

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

Have you ever been hit by an egg or water balloon thrown with force? It fcuking hurts and damn well IS violent.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/youth-blinded-nurse-in-egging-attack-from-car-26579382.html

I would certainly agree. People have a right to protest peacefully. Lobbing water balloons, banging on cars and chasing after people isn't peaceful, IMO

A question for people here, for and against meters/IW, any idea who you'll vote for in the next GE? Not who you won't vote for but who you will vote for.

KERSPLAT!

handlemaster wrote: »

Can we have a vote on who is happy to pay for water and who arent

I'd suggest looking in the two other threads, both had polls with different options

twowheelsgood

tayto lover wrote: »

Ha ha and thanked by madcon with his 5 posts.

6 posts! More lies from the anti side! :P

Also, you have to be impressed that s/he was thanked in 7 of those 6 posts! :pac:

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

To those who oppose water charges:

Given that Ireland is running at a deficit at the moment, Imagine you do get the water charges abolished, how do you propose to close the deficit?

Water charge isn't the only way to do it so how do you propose to do it?

To be honest, some of us that are opposed to water charges are more opposed to the way it has been introduced.

If the Government had come out and said "look, we need to raise income taxes for 10 years and they will expire after 10 years, or if our national debt falls to X level", then I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

It's the inconsistencies, the lies, incompetence, dishonesty, arrogance and entitled way the Government have bumbled through crisis after crisis that have me p*ssed off as much as the water charges per se.

Water charges are becoming the straw that broke the camel's back.

Death by a thousand cuts unless we actually try to fight back after one of those cuts.

Banjo String

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Can you show me the post where i said it was?

I can only show you were you conveniently didn't mention income tax isn't the only way water charges are funded.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You're right


How about everyone who doesn't pay INCOME TAX pays for water .

twowheelsgood wrote: »

What's this? Have you finally realized that if and when IW beds down central taxation will be the previous way water will have been funded?

No, it's me being a 'cute enough hoor' to predict someone trying to tell me it "used" to be funded that way.....

(and ignoring were all the 'freebies' 'rebates' and 'subsidies' will come from...... (the central pot)

And being unable to tell me where the taxes that 'previously paid for it' will be siphoned of to now

KERSPLAT!

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

A question for people here, for and against meters/IW, any idea who you'll vote for in the next GE? Not who you won't vote for but who you will vote for.

I've voted for all the big ones at this stage, and they have all let the country down badly. I even was a fervent Green Party supporter in 2007 after Trevor Sargent's rallying speech (one of the best I've ever heard from an Irish politician). Might seem laughable now, but given that at that stage we all thought the economy would not crumble in the way that it did, I felt in 2007 that our more pressing problems were getting corruption out of politics, and looking into making Ireland more environmentally friendly. I wish it were that simple now!

My only alternatives left that I've never given a vote to are Sinn Fein and/or Independents.

And I intend to give them the chance in the same way all the other big parties have been given a chance.

Timberrrrrrrr

Banjo String wrote: »

I can only show you were you conveniently didn't mention income tax isn't the only way water charges are funded.

So now you want me to list every tax so as not to misrepresent? :rolleyes:

Banjo String

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So now you want me to list every tax so as not to misrepresent? :rolleyes:

No, now I just want you to stop Implying that just because someone that doesn't pay INCOME TAX, be it, SW, pension or any other form of fixed income, doesn't in some way or another contribute towards water, via vat or motor taxes.

I'm not sure about you, but I currently haven't found any fool proof way to avoid vat.

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

What's this? Have you finally realized that if and when IW beds down central taxation will be the previous way water will have been funded?

No it won't. Stop talking nonsense. Will there be reductions in VRT? Will there be reductions in VAT will there be reductions in LPT. After all as you well know all these items either covered this cost or were brought in under the guideway covering it.

You do I'm sure realise that wages have gone dramatically down over the last four years and in many many cases companies are using wages as a way to stimulate profits. So praytell where will people get the money to pay for something they are already paying for and will continue to say all theses same items above on top of your new charge.

Does this part not get through to some people. You honestly must believe everyone is like you and has a well of money ready to go.

This sort of depressionary austerity crap does nothing to stimulate the economy. Do you think people spend if they don't think they have it? Do you think the recovery can continue on if they keep going into pockets.

Have a look at Japan.

Have a look at Europe. There will be major changes next year across Europe that is guaranteed this depression and double dip recession (Italy) can't and won't continue on and do you think an island of this size and population can act as Europe's crutch because let's get real here that is yours and all the other pro IW arguments. Its not about paying our way it's about paying off a failed European policy and illegal loans. That is what you need to focus on.

There is huge shift in Europe presently and all you can focus on is keeping this IW behemoth affloat. If I was a thinking man I would say there are alot of self interest posters dotted throughout this thread. Its the only explanation for the utter disregard for all the facts that have been handed out over the course of three threads.

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

No

Ah, and I thought you were making progress.

Banjo String wrote: »

And being unable to tell me where the taxes that 'previously paid for it' will be siphoned of to now

No need to tell you - you already know (hint: D word)

twowheelsgood

listermint wrote: »

......

So do you propose we leave out deficit as it currently is and add 6 billion each year to our national debt?

Banjo String

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Ah, and I thought you were making progress.



No need to tell you - you already know (hint: D word)

The d word I presume is the deficit.

The amount that they hope to raise now after price reductions, concessions, rebates etc will be like emptying an Olympic sized swimming pool using a thimble.


And the fact the Govt are attempting to ram it down our throats for such a paltry sum (in the grand scheme of things) deserves to be questioned.

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

So do you propose we leave out deficit as it currently is and add 6 billion each year to our national debt?

We need stronger politicians to go out there and get us a deal.

You clearly dont realise that we have the weakest negotiators imaginable.

Look at all of them in the Dail. Im talking about Enda joan and noonan. They are extremely poor performers. Would you honestly send them in to get some money off a new car for you.

They'd be the type to nod and ask if a free wash is Included.

Do you agree that there is currently a massive change going on in Europe? And would you agree that Ireland has to get involved heavily?

You do understand that it would all collapse if we threatened to pull membership don't let them fool you we are integral to the project.

Our negotiators are world class idiots

Timberrrrrrrr

Banjo String wrote: »

No, now I just want you to stop Implying that just because someone that doesn't pay INCOME TAX, be it, SW, pension or any other form of fixed income, doesn't in some way or another contribute towards water, via vat or motor taxes.

I'm not implying that at all you are just taking what i say and rearranging things in your head to suit your agenda, I never said people don't pay vat etc i am saying those who don't pay INCOME TAX should pay for water as those who DO PAY INCOME TAX are already paying enough.

I'm not sure about you, but I currently haven't found any fool proof way to avoid vat.

Black market

Pigfoot

handlemaster wrote: »

Can we have a vote on who is happy to pay for water and who arent

Pay for water or pay to Irish Water. Theres a marked difference