IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

The amount that they hope to raise now after price reductions, concessions, rebates etc will be like emptying an Olympic sized swimming pool using a thimble.
And the fact the Govt are attempting to ram it down our throats for such a paltry sum (in the grand scheme of things) deserves to be questioned.

Nicely deflected. That goes to the question of whether the dividends from metering water is worth all the grief for everyone. We are discussing the (non) question as to whether we will be paying for water twice.

Mind, given that you seem to concede that there will be some (any!) impact on our deficit as a result of metered water suggests you do accept that previous monies to pay for water will in fact now be used for something else.

Sobko

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

A few things that strike me here;

1.) I don't understand, and never will, why people think they should be handed all their services for nothing? I understand not wanting to pay twice, but I don't think that's what people want, they just don't want to pay at all. And no country can work like that.

2.) It's been said before, but refusing to pay your water charges isn't going to magically solve the countries problems nor your own personal ones. If anything it will add to them....who do you expect to out food on your table when you receive a huge fine to pay and/or jail time for not paying?

3.)I don't know where people except the money to fix and run the country to come from if not taxes and charges. Enda Kenny isn't Harry Potter, he can't wave a magic wand and make money appear out of thin air, it has to come from somewhere. This idea of taxing the rich only etc won't work either, it's unfair and illogical.

I do understand the anger and I do understand that some people just can't afford another charge, but I have to wonder what the alternatives are? For all the whinging and complaining about more taxes, I have not yet heard another reasonable and workable solution.

1. People do not get their services for nothing. It's financed through general taxation. Using your own analogy those people providing public services don't magically get paid from Harry Potters vault.

2 & 3. It's not going to help the economy either as no doubt like most taxes at present a lot of it is being employed to pay down the national debt. Governments don't fix economies the private sector does. It is up to them to create employment which in turn will increase income tax returns. The government just needs to get out of the way and wait for their gravy bowls to be filled so they can continue to gorge on the backs of its people. This line that we don't pay for water is lies. Stop telling them. Be truthful.

The alternative is SMEs and the public sector recovery. Government policy is immigration and jobsbrige.

Pigfoot

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

A few things that strike me here;

1.) I don't understand, and never will, why people think they should be handed all their services for nothing? I understand not wanting to pay twice, but I don't think that's what people want, they just don't want to pay at all. And no country can work like that.

2.) It's been said before, but refusing to pay your water charges isn't going to magically solve the countries problems nor your own personal ones. If anything it will add to them....who do you expect to out food on your table when you receive a huge fine to pay and/or jail time for not paying?

3.)I don't know where people except the money to fix and run the country to come from if not taxes and charges. Enda Kenny isn't Harry Potter, he can't wave a magic wand and make money appear out of thin air, it has to come from somewhere. This idea of taxing the rich only etc won't work either, it's unfair and illogical.

I do understand the anger and I do understand that some people just can't afford another charge, but I have to wonder what the alternatives are? For all the whinging and complaining about more taxes, I have not yet heard another reasonable and workable solution.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'm not ignoring that, I think IW is a joke too.

My point is that I am not sure that's everyone's objecting too, well some are obviously but not all.

I just hope that the majority are objecting for the right reasons is all.

Theres a natural order to how things should be done.
BEFORE asking a populace time after time to shut up and stump up you need to put your own house in order. Thats fair, thats good optics, its leading by example.
We have more TDs per head of population than most other EU states: Change that

We STILL (Despite claims other wise) have mostly unvouched Dail expenses: Change that

We still have some of the most highly paid politicians and public servants in Europe (Hell I heard some years back that head librarians are better paid than other states Prime Ministers but cant for the life of me find a link. Could be bollox but seeing as this is Ireland i can believe it!): Change that

We still have cronyism, brown envelopes and golden circles operating in broad day light with the most recent glaring example being IW: Change that

Otherwise everything the government do is simple a larger version of Haughey telling us to tighten our belts whilst wearing silk shirts on the private island he accesses via his yacht.

But speaking of lack of alternatives Audrey whats yours other than shut up and stump up?

listermint

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Nicely deflected. That goes to the question of whether the dividends from metering water is worth all the grief for everyone. We are discussing the (non) question as to whether we will be paying for water twice.

Mind, given that you seem to concede that there will be some (any!) impact on our deficit as a result of metered water suggests you do accept that previous monies to pay for water will in fact now be used for something else.

That something else is what? A non viable debt target. It doesn't matter how many irish waters you concede to pay or sell off. The elephant in the room isn't our day to day borrowing it's ecb noose. That has to be front and centre.

You know this but why can't you admit it? Strange that

Banjo String

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm not implying that at all you are just taking what i say and rearranging things in your head to suit your agenda, I never said people don't pay vat etc i am saying those who don't pay INCOME TAX should pay for water as those who DO PAY INCOME TAX are already paying enough.

I can only quote you on what you posted, and that doesn't require me to 'rearrange things in my head'..

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How about everyone who doesn't pay INCOME TAX pays for water.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Black market

That's some warped imagination you have.

twowheelsgood

listermint wrote: »

We need stronger politicians to go out there and get us a deal.

You seem to be confusing our debt and our deficit. Nobody will give us a deal on the latter! Do you imagine that they are insane?

And only about one third of our debt is bank related. The rest is because we are spending more than we are raising. And paying about 5.5 billion in interest alone on this and would continue to do so even if the bank debt was written off completely.

But that is all an aide to the point I made. Which is that we will not be paying for water twice if metering comes in. Do you actually believe this to be false?

Red Pepper

Wow just wow. I knew the government was spineless but I cant believe they are planning to cap the water charge at €160. I was actually in favour of charged water usage to prevent waste, my issue was always with the way Irish Water was set up. The Irish Water quango formation exemplified all that is unacceptable to the taxpayer i.e. cronyism, inefficiency, overstaffing, overpaid, operation policy decide on the fly etc but now the government in it's cowardly wisdom has decided to do away with the usage based charges in order to protect the quango.

This is the weakest government with the weakest leadership in the history of the state. It has lost all credibility now. It cannot and will not last.

twowheelsgood

Red Pepper wrote: »

It cannot and will not last.

And what will bring it to an end?

Red Pepper

twowheelsgood wrote: »

And what will bring it to an end?

Irish Water.

_Kaiser_

twowheelsgood wrote: »

And what will bring it to an end?

Labour's fear of going the way of the Greens, or FG TD's who were elected for the first time in the last election and would like to retain their seats.

Certainly the cabinet won't be in any rush to change things as if it looks like they're going to be wiped out in GE 2016, most if not all of them will retire - like their predecessors - to a well-paid life on the lecture circuit or lobbying rather than face the electorate.

There's reports that party meetings are "interesting" of late and Kenny has never been a strong leader to begin with so the party may decide to cut their losses in advance of the GE.

Will that be half for those who use only one service?

gandalf

I have to ask the question to the cheerleaders for Irish Water, are you really comfortable supplying this organisation with your personal details?

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-data-breach-wrong-email-address-1785115-Nov2014/

A DUBLIN-BASED businessman has accused Irish Water staff of a catalogue of “shocking” errors which led up to his personal information being emailed to the wrong person.

Timberrrrrrrr

Banjo String wrote: »

I can only quote you on what you posted, and that doesn't require me to 'rearrange things in my head'..





That's some warped imagination you have.

That's your opinion and i suppose you are entitled to it :rolleyes:

AudreyHepburn

Pigfoot wrote: »

Theres a natural order to how things should be done.
BEFORE asking a populace time after time to shut up and stump up you need to put your own house in order. Thats fair, thats good optics, its leading by example.
We have more TDs per head of population than most other EU states: Change that

We STILL (Despite claims other wise) have mostly unvouched Dail expenses: Change that

We still have some of the most highly paid politicians and public servants in Europe (Hell I heard some years back that head librarians are better paid than other states Prime Ministers but cant for the life of me find a link. Could be bollox but seeing as this is Ireland i can believe it!): Change that

We still have cronyism, brown envelopes and golden circles operating in broad day light with the most recent glaring example being IW: Change that

Otherwise everything the government do is simple a larger version of Haughey telling us to tighten our belts whilst wearing silk shirts on the private island he accesses via his yacht.

But speaking of lack of alternatives Audrey whats yours other than shut up and stump up?

I don't know if there is one, that's my point.

Some would tax the rich alone, cut only the TDs wages etc but I can't see how that's viable.

I suppose taxing people relative to what they earn, cutting wages from the top down etc would be a good place to start.

FREETV

Con men who get in to power for the money and the power do not care one bit about the people.

I would rather trust an accidentally encountered, startled snake in the grass than Herr Enda.
I think we need Saint Patrick back in Ireland because there are quite a few snakes who need to be banished from the Country.

It is ENDA days for Kenny.
Resign now before you get thrown out as the nation doesn't want you or Burton anymore.
You have no mandate and no sympathy from us.
You are both running scared and accomplished liars.
You are even more arrogant and pompous than CJ was.
Liars and charlatans the lot of them, did Common Purpose train them I wonder?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw&feature=youtu.be

AudreyHepburn

Sobko wrote: »

1. People do not get their services for nothing. It's financed through general taxation. Using your own analogy those people providing public services don't magically get paid from Harry Potters vault.

I know they don't, my point is I'm beginning to think they want to and that's not the way to run a country or get it out of a recession.

2 & 3. It's not going to help the economy either as no doubt like most taxes at present a lot of it is being employed to pay down the national debt. Governments don't fix economies the private sector does. It is up to them to create employment which in turn will increase income tax returns. The government just needs to get out of the way and wait for their gravy bowls to be filled so they can continue to gorge on the backs of its people. This line that we don't pay for water is lies. Stop telling them. Be truthful.

The alternative is SMEs and the public sector recovery. Government policy is immigration and jobsbrige.

I've lied about nothing, I know we pay for our services.

twowheelsgood

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Labour's fear of going the way of the Greens, or FG TD's who were elected for the first time in the last election and would like to retain their seats.

Which is precisely the reason why they won't pull the plug now. There best bet is to hope that the whole IW business will settle down in the next few months and have a give away next Autumn.

That mightn't work for many of them. But is's a better plan than taking their chance now.

Slozer

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

I'd like to see Irish water fail.

They have.

Larbre34

Its true, the water issue became a totem and now has become a sideshow, there is blood in the water and cold sweats in Government buildings, this has become about achieving an election. Personally I see it before Paddys Day.

Akrasia

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'm not implying that at all you are just taking what i say and rearranging things in your head to suit your agenda, I never said people don't pay vat etc i am saying those who don't pay INCOME TAX should pay for water as those who DO PAY INCOME TAX are already paying enough.



Black market

Everyone pays tax, all the tax goes into the exchequer where the finance department allocates it to run the state. It makes no difference if it's PAYE, or USC, or PRSI, or CGT or VAT or Motor tax....
People on low incomes pay a much higher percentage of their income on regressive taxation such as excise duty and VAT as well as lump sum charges like television licences, motor tax fees and charges for public services etc

If I earn 25k and I pay 3 grand a year to put petrol in my car (mostly just to get to work) and 700 a year to tax it, then I'm paying about 2700 in tax which is the same as a tax rate of more than 10% of my income If I earn 60 grand a year, the same 2700 would be 4.5% of my income

Pigfoot

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I know they don't, my point is I'm beginning to think they want to and that's not the way to run a country or get it out of a recession.



I've lied about nothing, I know we pay for our services.

Why do you think people want free services?
If its to do with this thread then you really ARE missing many posters point that the issue is with our screwed up eliteist political /class system and how its filters into bodies such as IW.

I asked you in another thread to research Hubert Kearns and explain to me why i should contribute to the wages of him and his kind.
Get back to me.

Timberrrrrrrr

Akrasia wrote: »

Everyone pays tax, all the tax goes into the exchequer where the finance department allocates it to run the state. It makes no difference if it's PAYE, or USC, or PRSI, or CGT or VAT or Motor tax....
People on low incomes pay a much higher percentage of their income on regressive taxation such as excise duty and VAT as well as lump sum charges like television licences, motor tax fees and charges for public services etc

I pay 52% tax on my earnings, Someone on the dole or a pension doesn't pay that. Pension and dole should be taxed as it is an INCOME hence me saying INCOME TAX. Yes i know we all pay VAT, motor tax etc etc and i see the same names throwing that waffle out day after day. The simple fat is that the biggest cost to the state is welfare, Welfare is income and therefore should be taxed. Nothing for nothing should be Ireland's new motto!

If I earn 25k and I pay 3 grand a year to put petrol in my car (mostly just to get to work) and 700 a year to tax it, then I'm paying about 2700 in tax which is the same as a tax rate of more than 10% of my income If I earn 60 grand a year, the same 2700 would be 4.5% of my income

If you earn 25k a year then you will be paying less tax than someone on 60k a year, Does someone on 60k a year not spend their money? Is it hoarded away?

Streetwalker

An election must be called asap. The government has lost it's mandate and is running on spin and PR. They simply can't be trusted.

gandalf

Streetwalker wrote: »

An election must be called asap. The government has lost it's mandate and is running on spin and PR. They simply can't be trusted.

That is not going to happen. Unless there is a complete and utter breakdown of party discipline which there won't be as the backbenchers know if an election occurs now then they will have a harder fight to retain their seats than in 2016. In a coalition the junior partner is always the more likely to bring it down, Labour won't do this now as they will be obliterated given the electorates anger with them.

AudreyHepburn

Streetwalker wrote: »

An election must be called asap. The government has lost it's mandate and is running on spin and PR. They simply can't be trusted.

Who's the alternative though? Sinn Fein? Fianna Fail?

In all reality is there actually an alternative?

Highflyer13

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kelly-nothing-harsh-about-water-charge-penalties-651561.html

Brendan Howlin stating this morning that the Irish people will be proud of Irish Water. He states that it will be a fine state utility like ESB and all the other state institutions. The Govt are sleepwalking through this 'fine' mess of theirs.

tigger123

gandalf wrote: »

That is not going to happen. Unless there is a complete and utter breakdown of party discipline which there won't be as the backbenchers know if an election occurs now then they will have a harder fight to retain their seats than in 2016. In a coalition the junior partner is always the more likely to bring it down, Labour won't do this now as they will be obliterated given the electorates anger with them.

From the Government's perspective it's all about weathering the storm.

FREETV

gandalf wrote: »

That is not going to happen. Unless there is a complete and utter breakdown of party discipline which there won't be as the backbenchers know if an election occurs now then they will have a harder fight to retain their seats than in 2016. In a coalition the junior partner is always the more likely to bring it down, Labour won't do this now as they will be obliterated given the electorates anger with them.

True and that is exactly why Enda Kenny said NO to Mick Wallace in the Dail yesterday when Mick asked him to dissolve the Dail and call for a general election after Mick said that they had lost the trust of the people and had no mandate.

Caliden

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Who's the alternative though? Sinn Fein? Fianna Fail?

In all reality is there actually an alternative?

Sounds like something Russell Brand would say... and it's entirely correct. The illusion of choice.

Timberrrrrrrr

FREETV wrote: »

True and that is exactly why Enda Kenny said NO to Mick Wallace in the Dail yesterday when Mick asked him to dissolve the Dail and call for a general election after Mick said that they had lost the trust of the people and had no mandate.

That fool hasn't a clue and is an embarrassment to the people he is supposed to be representing.