IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Fuhrer

Tinkersbell wrote: »

The state has defrauded the Irish people out of €60 odd billion in order to keep their banking buddies here and in the ECB happy.
I know which one I see as the bigger crime.

It is depressing that the only option seems to be who was less criminal

Banjo String

Tinkersbell wrote: »

The state has defrauded the Irish people out of €60 odd billion in order to keep their banking buddies here and in the ECB happy.
I know which one I see as the bigger crime.

The main difference being, Mick Wallace reached a settlement with Revenue, and is in a repayment plan.

gandalf

ROCKMAN wrote: »

why have we not seen Enda Kenny on Vincent Brown, The Late Late Show or Primetime.

Surely as a nation we deserve to see and hear a frank and honest interview from the leader of the country at this time and not just rehearsed little snippets here and there

Because he would be torn to pieces by any competent interviewer is the answer. I have never seen Kenny interviewed in any frank manner by any Irish Journalist.

The quality of real investigative Journalism in Ireland is shocking and pathetic. I would love to see a journalist of the stature of Jeremy Paxman give Kenny a good grilling.

Leroy42

I see the mdia spin has already started.

Top rates are to be ensrinhed in law permanently I saw one paper lead with, with the details a bit futher down (till 2018!).

I really hope this stunt doesn't work and get people to accept IW. It is not so much the charges, it is the whole way it was handled, and none of that looks like being dealt with.

Refusing to pay bonuses.. sorry since they are performance related incentives (the line always given out by IW) on what basis can they now be withheld? If its in their contracts it has to be paid. Are Enda really saying that he is happy to pay unsecured bond holders as a matter of principle but willing to tear up contracts to actual workers? Are Labour actually going to stand for that?

What happens to all the meters that have yet to be installed? Are we going to continue to pay for installation or place a stop on contracts that IW have aleady entered into with 3rd party installers.

Now that IW have no need for all the admin side of the business, a set fee is pretty easy to administer, can they get rid of part of the workforce?

Who is ultimately responsible for this entire omnishambles? How did it go so wrong? Did Bord Gais not deliver on their roll out promises, did the consutlants not carry out the proper job, was it the minister, or the Taoiseach? Do we simply say it was Phil Hogan but sure he's gone now so thats grand?

Whatever is said today, the least important part of it is actually the amount of the charges (in the long term, obviously that is very important from a immediate point of view)

Fuhrer

gandalf wrote: »

Because he would be torn to pieces by any competent interviewer is the answer. I have never seen Kenny interviewed in any frank manner by any Irish Journalist.

The quality of real investigative Journalism in Ireland is shocking and pathetic. I would love to see a journalist of the stature of Jeremy Paxman give Kenny a good grilling.

I dont think Kenny even does debates anymore let alone interviews

Tinkersbell

Fuhrer wrote: »

It is depressing that the only option seems to be who was less criminal

It's like some robbing a bag of sweets from the sweet shop or robbing the whole shop and setting fire to it.
Wallace's company went bust with these debts, the same type of company enda and bertie would have being lauding during the tiger years.
Enda allows other companies, like Apple, use our country as a tax haven and won't have a bad word said about them.

Tinkersbell

gandalf wrote: »

Because he would be torn to pieces by any competent interviewer is the answer. I have never seen Kenny interviewed in any frank manner by any Irish Journalist.

The quality of real investigative Journalism in Ireland is shocking and pathetic. I would love to see a journalist of the stature of Jeremy Paxman give Kenny a good grilling.

It'd be just plain embarrassing for him and more importantly for us, as a nation, because we elected the plank.

Caliden

The government scrapped e-voting machines which cost 60 million, I don't see how Irish Water can't be scraped.

This mindset of 'it's too big to fail' or 'sure we're this far, might as well keep going' is idiotic.


Admit defect, scrap it because otherwise the protests will get worse.

Highflyer13

Fuhrer wrote: »

It also asks the question, what exactly did they spend all that consulting money on if this basic position wasn't filled at the very start?

https://www.water.ie/news/bord-gais-expertise-to-sa/Irish-Water-Submission-to-Joint-Oireachtas-Committee-14th-January-2014.pdf

Could have been done for a fraction of the cost imo. They have played fast and loose with the public purse. Little or no thought has been put into so many key aspects of this project and therefore hard to justify this level of spending.

Fuhrer

Caliden wrote: »

The government scrapped e-voting machines which cost 60 million, I don't see how Irish Water can't be scraped.

This mindset of 'it's too big to fail' or 'sure we're this far, might as well keep going' is idiotic.


Admit defect, scrap it because otherwise the protests will get worse.

E-Voting machines were just a stupid boondogle, Irish Water is a big revenue stream potential for them. They wont scrap it.

Caliden

Fuhrer wrote: »

E-Voting machines were just a stupid boondogle, Irish Water is a big revenue stream potential for them. They wont scrap it.

Hence the hesitance to put it into the constitution. Citing this rubbish about group water schemes being affected, etc., it's clear what their end game is.

Sell it off in years to come and make money from it. At that point any of the politicians in power will be well into retirement and be earning their massive pension.

Fuhrer

Caliden wrote: »

Hence the hesitance to put it into the constitution. Citing this rubbish about group water schemes being affected, etc., it's clear what they're end game is.

Sell it off in years to come and make money from it.

It makes it much easier to balance a budget knowing that theres always a guaranteed amount of money coming in each year because people have to use water.


But as you said, when things get tough, whichever party is in power will flog the whole thing for a nice big lump sum of money to dick around with a **** over the next party that has to come in and deal with the leftovers

Highflyer13

Fuhrer wrote: »

E-Voting machines were just a stupid boondogle, Irish Water is a big revenue stream potential for them. They wont scrap it.

With the growing level of public anger, they wont have a choice.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

I see the mdia spin has already started.

Top rates are to be ensrinhed in law permanently I saw one paper lead with, with the details a bit futher down (till 2018!).

I really hope this stunt doesn't work and get people to accept IW. It is not so much the charges, it is the whole way it was handled, and none of that looks like being dealt with.

Refusing to pay bonuses.. sorry since they are performance related incentives (the line always given out by IW) on what basis can they now be withheld? If its in their contracts it has to be paid. Are Enda really saying that he is happy to pay unsecured bond holders as a matter of principle but willing to tear up contracts to actual workers? Are Labour actually going to stand for that?

What happens to all the meters that have yet to be installed? Are we going to continue to pay for installation or place a stop on contracts that IW have aleady entered into with 3rd party installers.

Now that IW have no need for all the admin side of the business, a set fee is pretty easy to administer, can they get rid of part of the workforce?

Who is ultimately responsible for this entire omnishambles? How did it go so wrong? Did Bord Gais not deliver on their roll out promises, did the consutlants not carry out the proper job, was it the minister, or the Taoiseach? Do we simply say it was Phil Hogan but sure he's gone now so thats grand?

Whatever is said today, the least important part of it is actually the amount of the charges (in the long term, obviously that is very important from a immediate point of view)

No one in power is at fault........



Queue all the ridiculous posters in here coming on saying its the 'protestors' fault.


Yes its our fault for questioning decisions and requesting better governance.

ROCKMAN

Caliden wrote: »

Hence the hesitance to put it into the constitution. Citing this rubbish about group water schemes being affected, etc., it's clear what their end game is.

Sell it off in years to come and make money from it. At that point any of the politicians in power will be well into retirement and be earning their massive pension.

Will be interesting to see what type of Legislation they try bring in today.
Because according Vincent Brown last night it only needs 2 Ministers approval to change it at the moment.

Caliden

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Will be interesting to see what type of Legislation they try bring in today.
Because according Vincent Brown last night it only needs 2 Ministers approval to change it at the moment.

Legislation is a waste of time. We saw what they can achieve when they put their minds to it and force something through in one night.

steamengine

Tinkersbell wrote: »

The state has defrauded the Irish people out of €60 odd billion in order to keep their banking buddies here and in the ECB happy.
I know which one I see as the bigger crime.

As the old saying goes - The law locks up the man or woman that steals the goose from the common - but let's the greater felon loose that steals the common from the goose.

listermint

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Will be interesting to see what type of Legislation they try bring in today.
Because according Vincent Brown last night it only needs 2 Ministers approval to change it at the moment.

VB is mostly a blundering mouthpiece, but he is correct.

Its pretty much set in stone than anything that comes up in future our Water Security can be sold of to the highest bidder with little more than two signatures and a midnight christmas whiskey in the Dail bar.


That itself is utterly scary.

Fuhrer

steamengine wrote: »

As the old saying goes - The law locks up the man or woman that steals the goose from the common - but let's the greater felon loose that steals the common from the goose.

"Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught."

Banjo String

Caliden wrote: »

Legislation is a waste of time. We saw what they can achieve when they put their minds to it and force something through in one night.

Interesting take on that in today's Irish Times.

Enda Kenny is trying to do a Moses today.

He needs to part the raging reds’ sea and lead his frightened and exhausted coalition through walls of Irish Water to a better place.

The Taoiseach has left it very late: he’ll need a bit of a miracle to pull this one off.

We should know by this evening if his Government has done enough to reach a safe haven. After that their journey is just beginning.

Will the anger of a nation – fed-up and beaten down by an accumulation of costs and cuts – subside sufficiently with the introduction of a greatly reduced charging system?

Or is the blood up now, whatever they do?

A number of key protest marches are planned for the coming weeks by opponents of the water charges. Until these have taken place the Government faces an anxious wait to find out if today’s measures go far enough to restore calm and assuage the genuine worries of voters.

Promised landParting the Reds’ Sea of Coppinger and Daly, Murphy and Boyd Barrett is one thing, but it’s those voters who will take Enda and, perhaps, Joan Burton to the promised land of a second term.

So a lot rests on this afternoon’s unveiling in the Dáil of Water Mk ll.

As might be expected, there was a row yesterday over the timing of this much awaited announcement and the length of the debate which will happen after it.

Micheál Martin, Gerry Adams and Joe Higgins were unanimous in their view that the Government was playing fast and loose with parliamentary rules by clearing almost every item from this week’s timetable in order to discuss the new Irish Water plan.

Why, wondered the Fianna Fáil leader, does it all have to be wrapped up by 10pm tomorrow night? “There is no compelling urgency here . . . stop trying to ram things through the Dáil,” he urged the Taoiseach.

Micheál has a point. The Government rushed its original Irish Water legislation through the Dáil with such speed that the Opposition staged a walk-out.

In hindsight, the Taoiseach and Tánaiste probably wish they took their time in the first instance. It didn’t take long for problems to bubble to the surface, problems that have seriously destabilised their administration.

These issues are causing much confusion and anxiety among the public but they could have been identified and ironed out if the introduction of Irish Water had been properly examined by the parliament at the beginning.

Still, better late than never.

Again, the opposition isn’t inclined to be grateful.

When the Minister for the Environment gets to his feet at 3pm to release details of the new billing system, they’ll already know what he’s going to say.

gladrags

Noonan,Monday in Limerick...

"But we govern for the centre, we govern for the reasonable people, and reasonable people were upset by the way in which this was handled."

I cannot figure out what Micko is on about here.

You could easily assume that he is admitting that,the goverment governs for one section of the electorate,the centre!

Anyone with other than centralist views are unreasonable,and can p*ss off.

Bit of a slip by Mick.

dav3

The government is stumbling from one disaster to another. €160 per family regardless of income, use as much as you like, as long as the quango and Denis gets paid that's the main thing.

Absolutely disastrous leadership from Enda and Joan on this.

Labour is gone in the next election, it's now a matter of how much damage Enda can do to FG before he's kicked out.

Highflyer13

gladrags wrote: »

Noonan,Monday in Limerick...

"But we govern for the centre, we govern for the reasonable people, and reasonable people were upset by the way in which this was handled."

I cannot figure out what Micko is on about here.

You could easily assume that he is admitting that,the goverment governs for one section of the electorate,the centre!

Anyone with other than centralist views are unreasonable,and can p*ss off.

Bit of a slip by Mick.

I have heard the phrase 'reasonable people' mentioned by various Government ministers in the last few days. I presume they were told to say it on a PR memo they received. Are they implying that anybody against the water charges are unreasonable?

Stargate

The "GovBots" are very silent today. Is there a secret meeting today or something?

Fuhrer

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Are they implying that anybody against the water charges are unreasonable?

They seem to be going that way.


Overall they're trying to demonize the anti-water protestors as violent and unreasonable, throwing water balloons, blocking cars and calling in bomb threats, while then trying to build a wall between those not protesting as saying that they support the government.

Tony EH

gladrags wrote: »

Noonan,Monday in Limerick...

"But we govern for the centre, we govern for the reasonable people, and reasonable people were upset by the way in which this was handled."

I cannot figure out what Micko is on about here.

You could easily assume that he is admitting that,the goverment governs for one section of the electorate,the centre!

Anyone with other than centralist views are unreasonable,and can p*ss off.

Bit of a slip by Mick.

Aye, it was an incredibly dumb thing to say. I'd say halfway through that sentence, his brain was saying "No, no, no...don't say that.....aww feck it."

listermint

Highflyer13 wrote: »

I have heard the phrase 'reasonable people' mentioned by various Government ministers in the last few days. I presume they were told to say it on a PR memo they received. Are they implying that anybody against the water charges are unreasonable?

Kelly was at it yesterday and again this morning.

Same term same use.

I have to say whoever their PR person is they need to be sacked. I would not pay a penny for that sort of advise.

Basically slagging off your clients in the media, in this case clients being citizens.

"You are all unreasonable for questioning our decisions and we only represent reasonable people"

What happens in business is he would have lost the customer and they go elsewhere.


This is an awfully worded statement by Noonan and Kelly they need to put that to bed, or else keep it up its only working against them

Larbre34

Fuhrer wrote: »

They seem to be going that way.


Overall they're trying to demonize the anti-water protestors as violent and unreasonable, throwing water balloons, blocking cars and calling in bomb threats, while then trying to build a wall between those not protesting as saying that they support the government.

I'm a reasonable person. I reasonably paid €46,000 in taxes and charges from my household last year. I don't believe my feeling that I have paid enough to the state and that I am already paying for my services, is unreasonable.

I also don't believe that viewing Irish Water as a wasteful, incompetent, blundering and unnecessary quango is unreasonable either.

Alan Kelly may contend (though I don't think he believes it for a second) that he can bring 'reasonable' people with him. Not this one he won't.

gladrags

Tony EH wrote: »

Aye, it was an incredibly dumb thing to say. I'd say halfway through that sentence, his brain was saying "No, no, no...don't say that.....aww feck it."

You would have thought that one of the journalists would have picked him up on it.

And Kenny's slurs over the last few weeks.

gladrags

Stargate wrote: »

The "GovBots" are very silent today. Is there a secret meeting today or something?

Kildare Street,free tab.