IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

FionnK86

BBJBIG wrote: »

GENERAL ELECTION .... *** NOW *** .... PLEASE .... !!! !!! !!!

Time to get these Fooooookin Liars OUT NOW !!! !!! !!

No, they should get to run the 4 years which I've voted for them to get, and then at the end, you can vote in another lot :rolleyes:

Fuhrer

Dean0088 wrote: »

I said it almost two months ago that if the behaviour of people at these protests was allowed to continue (as it has been) it would get worse (as it has). Blocking roads, intimidating workers and shouting down any voice of reason or opposition is not democracy - it's mob rule and the OP is 100% right in saying it.

What do you mean if peoples behaviour is allowed to continue?


Allowed by who?

VinLieger

Fuhrer wrote: »

How disruptive do you think General Elections are?


The vast, vast majority of people are only affected for the 20 minutes it takes them to go to the polling station and vote.

How naive are you? Theres a very simple reason they are never held anywhere close to christmas. Nobody knows what the results could bring especially with the current illogical discontent around the country and the loony left brigade promising the moon and stars as their strategy so spending is very likely to go down during one

Fuhrer

VinLieger wrote: »

How naive are you? Theres a very simple reason they are never held anywhere close to christmas. Nobody knows what the results could bring especially with the current illogical discontent around the country and the loony left brigade promising the moon and stars as their strategy so spending is very likely to go down during one

If a general election would cause any kind of disruption at Christmas, it would cause it any time of the year.

Best to just shelve elections then, we have to be careful

AboutaWeekAgo

VinLieger wrote: »

You honestly want a GE this close to christmas? Businesses would be destroyed due to the uncertainty they bring and how much shops rely on the high spending at this time of year which would be non existent during a GE.

People won't buy Christmas present because of an election? How'd you figure that one?

VinLieger

Fuhrer wrote: »

If a general election would cause any kind of disruption at Christmas, it would cause it any time of the year.

Best to just shelve elections then, we have to be careful

Yes but considering the higher than normal spending around christmas that many businesses rely on the size of difference in disruption would be completely different to say if it happened mid summer

howiya

VinLieger wrote: »

You honestly want a GE this close to christmas? Businesses would be destroyed due to the uncertainty they bring and how much shops rely on the high spending at this time of year which would be non existent during a GE.

Imagine the look on Little Johnny's face when he's told he couldn't have the Scalextric he was after because Santa didn't know whether Paul Murphy or Cathal King was going to fill the last seat in Dublin South West

AudreyHepburn

Pigfoot wrote: »

Why do you think people want free services?
If its to do with this thread then you really ARE missing many posters point that the issue is with our screwed up eliteist political /class system and how its filters into bodies such as IW.

Because every time a new tax or charge or hike in costs comes in there's uproar and people refusing to pay, even those who can afford.

I do get the issue of politics leaking into places where they shouldn't be but I just wonder sometimes if that really is the issue.

Obviously some just can't afford it, and their objections I understand.

I asked you in another thread to research Hubert Kearns and explain to me why i should contribute to the wages of him and his kind.
Get back to me.

Are we still in school?

Banjo String

Dean picks out a couple of isolated incidents to tarnish the hundreds of thousands of ordinary men, women and children that marched and protested on multiple days without as much as an incident.

The percentage of the amount of non violent protestors must be in the point zero of percent in comparison.

As for who you intend to vote for, well done.

Doesn't take away from the fact that as it stands, the majority of the electorate have shown they do not want Irish water.

Be it through a vocal/physical protest, at marches or by the fact that over a million households have not returned their "application packs"

When a minority of people try to ram their policies down the majority of the electorate, that is not democracy.

Personally, I hope Irish Water is resigned to the history books, this year or early next year.

Tear it up and start again FG and Labour.

Dean0088 wrote: »

I said it almost two months ago that if the behaviour of people at these protests was allowed to continue (as it has been) it would get worse (as it has). Blocking roads, intimidating workers and shouting down any voice of reason or opposition is not democracy - it's mob rule and the OP is 100% right in saying it.


The present government have lost a load of support and I'm not happy about how IW is being run (despite supporting water charges in general). However I'll be voting FG. They actually have policies that make sense as opposed to a bunch of idiots desperate for the political limelight. I could never support a political party or ideology like they're a football team - I vote for what I think will actually work, not who can shout the loudest and create PR stunts.

Blocking the taoiseach's car on O'Connel street, and blocking the táiniste's car multiple times is intimidation of elected officials and the antithesis of democracy. It shouldn't stand and it should be put down until these protests learn how to behave legally.

This is all a joke anyways. These protests are not about water, socialism or getting rid of FG/Lab.

They're about money. The average attendee doesn't want to pay an extra bill. Fine. That's why they're protesting. I guarantee if you asked the average person at these protests about the kind of policies and ideals Paul Murphy, AAA, ULA, PBP etc... actually have and they'd shrug their shoulders. They don't support them - they're just following the dude with the loudspeaker saying he'll save them from an extra bill.

FG are backpedaling big time. Todays announcement of a fixed charge for three years is their attempt to quell the average protester's short-term worries because an election is coming very soon. Maybe it's because of the protests. Or maybe it's a political move that dates back to the Roman era. Either way, if it reduces the "angry idiot" vote who'd actually like to see Ireland's hard-left in power then it'll do.

Anyone who watches these protest videos or has seen them trapsing around their area will know that intimidation and an angry mob mentality is all these guys have going for them.

If they ever did get into power I'd give it three months before there was a real angry mob protesting.

Timberrrrrrrr

Banjo String wrote: »

It was the text within the quote that was relevant, not the author.

**clutching at straws** :pac:

Sure :rolleyes:

Banjo String

FionnK86 wrote: »

No, they should get to run the 4 years which I've voted for them to get, and then at the end, you can vote in another lot :rolleyes:

So your in support of turfing them out a year early?

Fukuyama

LostinKildare wrote: »

Glad you don't. In general, though, it does seem that Doherty has escaped the attention and vitriol that is aimed at Wallace.



Yes, it does fall on the voters, but in fairness, there has to be an EFFECTIVE system in place that supports the execution of the people's wishes. The party whip system prevents this.

"If TD A says they will fight against water charges and then votes for them due to the whip system, why would we trust them again?" --- The thing is, NO party candidates can be trusted as long as they submit to, and hide behind, the party whip.

If I give my vote to the Labour candidate because he said he'd vote against water charges, and once in power he votes in water charges because his Labour party membership requires it, he then justifies it by saying that with my vote I supported the Labour party, and entrusted the party to do what they think best. Unfortunately, a political party will always act in the political party's interests over the constituents' interests.

The system is rigged so that when you vote in an election you are voting for a party, not for policy. You must trust the party to do what you want, but if you are aware of and accept the whip system, you cannot really hold an individual representative accountable for his/her votes.

You can say that come the next election you will not again vote for that person, but discarding that possibility, how do you choose among the other candidates, all of whom are doing the same --- making promises that they will not/cannot keep because their party will forbid it?

Unless you vote for an Independent. They are the only representatives truly accountable to the voters. The Irish public seem to be catching on to this.

If only there was an alternative to the whip system already in place... oh wait. There is. They're called independents.

Party voting exists out of necessity - if it wasn't there nothing would ever get through the dáil.

What would be your ideal opposite situation?

Lets say every TD could vote exactly how he thinks his constituents would. How would anything every go through? How would countries be able to increase taxes? Increase spending? Decrease spending? Go to war? Or any other myriad of unpopular moves?

Effectively what you're suggesting is that the country listen to the average man when it comes to running the country. This is stupid as the average person

a) knows very little about economics, diplomacy and running departments
b) everyone wants whatever will put an extra few bob in his wallet, not whats good for the country ten years down the line.

We don't vote for politicians to do as we say, we vote for politicians to do their best based on a set of basic policies and their allegience is first to the state, second to the people (an important facet to consider). If you don't like them any more then don't vote for them.

Nobody is happy about water charges. I can't think of a single person who's ecstatic at the thought of another bill dropping through the letterbox - but I'll vote FG because I believe they're the only party capable of actually running the country based on their policies.

If SF, ULA, AAA etc... all did what they're promising the country would crash and burn within a year. We'd be reminiscing about the good old days of 2010-11.

Fuhrer

Dean0088 wrote: »

If SF, ULA, AAA etc... all did what they're promising the country would crash and burn within a year. We'd be reminiscing about the good old days of 2010-11.

We know how worthless promises are from political parties, just look at Enda Kennys promises on the household tax before he got into power.

howiya

Dean0088 wrote: »

Nobody is happy about water charges. I can't think of a single person who's ecstatic at the thought of another bill - but I'll vote FG because I believe they're the only party capable of actually running the country based on their policies.

If they were capable of running the country they wouldn't be having a third time lucky go at introducing the water charges.

They also haven't delivered on the change and reform they promised in 2011

howiya

Dean0088 wrote: »

Party voting exists out of necessity - if it wasn't there nothing would ever get through the dáil.

Some things would obviously get through the Dail.

What would happen instead of the whip system would be meaningful debate on legislation in order to garner sufficient votes for the bill to pass.

Something which the party you support is vehemently opposed to. The Dail is seen by them as a rubber stamp for decisions made at cabinet.

Highflyer13

I know I shouldn't find this funny but I had to laugh with all that is going on.

https://twitter.com/RichPreston/status/534835263294689281

Fukuyama

Banjo String wrote: »

Dean picks out a couple of isolated incidents to tarnish the hundreds of thousands of ordinary men, women and children that marched and protested on multiple days without as much as an incident.

The percentage of the amount of non violent protestors must be in the point zero of percent in comparison.

As for who you intend to vote for, well done.

Doesn't take away from the fact that as it stands, the majority of the electorate have shown they do not want Irish water.

Be it through a vocal/physical protest, at marches or by the fact that over a million households have not returned their "application packs"

When a minority of people try to ram their policies down the majority of the electorate, that is not democracy.

Personally, I hope Irish Water is resigned to the history books, this year or early next year.

Tear it up and start again FG and Labour.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not condeming the average protester - in fact I commend people who go on marches and are active politically even if they're the opposite of my own political mindset/opinions.

As I said in my post the vast majority of people attending these protest have no idea WHO or WHAT they're supporting. You can't look at me with a straight face and say that the hard-left policies wouldn't ruin this country.

The average protester wasn't surrounding cars or intimidating people. They were in work or elsewhere. And when organised, legal marches took place they attended. That's democracy and it's those protests which is causing the FG U-Turn because it shows NUMBERS - exactly what they need during a GE.

The incidents of intimidation and illegal protests are not isolated in that they have been happening for months and months. There are hundreds of videos online and in my thread (month or so ago), along with their on YouTube accounts. What IS isolated are the people causing these incidents:


There are a core group involved ranging from republicans to hard-left career protesters. It's the same faces again and again and again. I actually recognize them now. Every new video is like a continuation of the last -same people, same ****, different day. They use intimidation and PR stunts to draw attention to themselves. Some of them are getting elected based on an anti-IW vote - fair enough. That doesn't concern me. What does concern me is what these guys stand FOR.

Fukuyama

howiya wrote: »

Some things would obviously get through the Dail.

What would happen instead of the whip system would be meaningful debate on legislation in order to garner sufficient votes for the bill to pass.

Something which the party you support is vehemently opposed to. The Dail is seen by them as a rubber stamp for decisions made at cabinet.

Yeah, because the level of debate surrounding IW has been so level headed. Real sensible policies put forward by the opposition with detailed plans and workable policies.

People vote with their wallets, not with their heads. The first job of ANY politicians (even our beloved hard-left crusading rebels) is to get re-elected. No unpopular bill would pass despite the necessity of the circumstances.

Larbre34

Highflyer13 wrote: »

I know I shouldn't find this funny but I had to laugh with all that is going on.

https://twitter.com/RichPreston/status/534835263294689281

Who or what is that lad anyway? Some uncredited Indy type?


Not surprising anyway, he picked a bad day to get the undivided attention of an Irish politician

Fukuyama

Fuhrer wrote: »

What do you mean if peoples behaviour is allowed to continue?


Allowed by who?

Basically, I think anyone trying to intimidate politicians or residents shouldn't be allowed to do so.

If I blocked your car in your drive way with a bunch of my mates you'd either run us over or call the guards. So I think the guards should just wade into people who think they're above the law like the German police do. Not to stomp down on protests but to keep a functioning democracy...functioning.

Intimidation of politicians left Irish politics a long time ago. A resurgence shouldn't be allowed whether it's hate mail to their house or getting mob together to impede their travel.

Highflyer13

They just done a sample text poll on Liveline on the new water charging system. Out of 15000 texts 29% accepted new proposals for charging and 71% rejected.

howiya

Dean0088 wrote: »

Yeah, because the level of debate surrounding IW has been so level headed. Real sensible policies put forward by the opposition with detailed plans and workable policies.

People vote with their wallets, not with their heads. The first job of ANY politicians (even our beloved hard-left crusading rebels) is to get re-elected. No unpopular bill would pass despite the necessity of the circumstances.

I actually missed that three hour debate in the Dail. Was there an opportunity to put forward real sensible policies?

It works in other countries. Why can't it work in Ireland?

DamagedTrax

Dean0088 wrote: »

Basically, I think anyone trying to intimidate politicians or residents shouldn't be allowed to do so.

If I blocked your car in your drive way with a bunch of my mates you'd either run us over or call the guards. So I think the guards should just wade into people who think they're above the law like the German police do. Not to stomp down on protests but to keep a functioning democracy...functioning.

Intimidation of politicians left Irish politics a long time ago. A resurgence shouldn't be allowed whether it's hate mail to their house or getting mob together to impede their travel.

i dont agree with physically harrassing them myself... BUT the police and government have only to look at their own treatment of the public, to understand where this anger stems from.

Larbre34

Highflyer13 wrote: »

They just done a sample text poll on Liveline on the new water charging system. Out of 15000 texts 29% accepted new proposals for charging and 71% rejected.

Not scientific, so pointless doing it.

howiya

Dean0088 wrote: »

Basically, I think anyone trying to intimidate politicians or residents shouldn't be allowed to do so.

If I blocked your car in your drive way with a bunch of my mates you'd either run us over or call the guards. So I think the guards should just wade into people who think they're above the law like the German police do. Not to stomp down on protests but to keep a functioning democracy...functioning.

Intimidation of politicians left Irish politics a long time ago. A resurgence shouldn't be allowed whether it's hate mail to their house or getting mob together to impede their travel.

So Fine Gael ministers who supported the recent blockade of meat factories were wrong?

Pigfoot

listermint wrote: »

Kelly was at it yesterday and again this morning.

Same term same use.

I have to say whoever their PR person is they need to be sacked. I would not pay a penny for that sort of advise.

Basically slagging off your clients in the media, in this case clients being citizens.

"You are all unreasonable for questioning our decisions and we only represent reasonable people"

What happens in business is he would have lost the customer and they go elsewhere.


This is an awfully worded statement by Noonan and Kelly they need to put that to bed, or else keep it up its only working against them

I stumbled across 10 minutes of Leaders Questions today and its as if the Pr/ Speech writers have them on remote control. Think what you like about Gerry Adams but every single time he asks Enda a question on any matter all he gets is 'You blew stuff up/ Your party are implicated in some way with rapists". All true but hardly fitting to use it , for years now, to simply dodge question.

howiya

Highflyer13 wrote: »

They just done a sample text poll on Liveline on the new water charging system. Out of 15000 texts 29% accepted new proposals for charging and 71% rejected.

Those anti water charges protestors and their mobile phones… Maybe Joan was right

Fukuyama

howiya wrote: »

I actually missed that three hour debate in the Dail. Was there an opportunity to put forward real sensible policies?

It works in other countries. Why can't it work in Ireland?

What democracy doesn't have a whip system with the exception of Switzerland (and even then they still have party politics)?

Democracy is a govern by consent type of deal, but an elected government must also be allowed to govern. It's a trade off but it's a crucial one.

When the next GE comes you'll have your chance to vote for the hard-left if you so wish. Then, when they get into office upon winning they can reverse the water charges and make sweeping changes. They'll get them through the dáil because they were elected by the people.

And we can all toast marshmallows on the fire too.

ROCKMAN

Highflyer13 wrote: »

They just done a sample text poll on Liveline on the new water charging system. Out of 15000 texts 29% accepted new proposals for charging and 71% rejected.

if true and I have no reason to doubt it.
That is very surprising and if I'm completely honest I really expected the new tactics from the government to have had a bigger impact.

But I'm so encouraged by this figures ,these type of figures and a massive turn out on the 10th will scare the s**t out of the government .

Fukuyama

howiya wrote: »

So Fine Gael ministers who supported the recent blockade of meat factories were wrong?

Yes. Blockades violate the rights of others in the name of making a PR stunts. I'd only ever agree with a blockade against unjust laws where breaking the law is a necessity. Like say Dublin Bus decided not to employ black drivers or some other such human rights issue.

Like I said, I don't support Fianna Gael like they're a football team. I'm not a moron who gulps down whatever spin a politician can dish out. That goes of the politicians I vote for, not just the ones I don't.