IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Fukuyama

Deleted User wrote: »

This is not about water. It's about revenue generation for the government to after previous generations of tax revenue were used to rescue the banks.

If they were honest and open and admitted this, then I think people would have a bit more understanding, but they are trying to be too clever by half.

I wouldn't expect Irish Water to pay for itself within the decade. Not because of corruption but because it's massive, long-term investment. We'll be into the 2020s by the time it's paying its way. It wasn't a revenue generating scheme for the government - it was a long term plan recommended by the ECB, Troika and IMF so Ireland won't fall on it's arse again in ten, fifteen year time.

It was never going to be popular - FG/Lab just got the unwanted job of having to implement something which should have always been in place like it is around the world.

Revenue? Have you looked at the forecasts for IW?!

AboutaWeekAgo

Dean0088 wrote: »

What would you think is a fair wage for such a job?

40k? Super market line managers earn more.

I really think you don't know anything about the type of positions these people fill and are just citing numbers to be outraged.

€70k a year for a top level manager at a semi-state utility (particularly with conditions like 24/7 on-call etc...) isn't corruption or palm greasing. It's fair wage.

If they got top level managers in these positions I don't think it would be so bad but have you seen who was hired in IW? Nice high paying jobs for the boys is all it is.

Red Pepper

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/aaron-mckenna-theres-no-room-for-quangos-in-todays-cash-strapped-ireland-894984-May2013/

Good article on quangos & FG

Allyall

Red Pepper wrote: »

The government admit it is overstaffed by 2000 people!!!

Water utility companies are not making rockets. The infrastructure and systems were already in place and billing/asset management software is straightforward. The only difficult task were the water meters. You dont need a huge highly paid crack management team to run a utility.

This.
Wasn't there a well known company that put in their bid, and were expected to get it?

Along the lines of, we'll supply and install all of the water meters free of charge, and we'll only charge for the maintenance. Which is pretty much the done thing throughout Europe.
As you said, it wouldn't have cost them buckets load of cash, the infrastructure is already in place. But for some reason, this lot have made it much more difficult than it needs to be.

Fukuyama

Fuhrer wrote: »

What Socialist/Pro Left leanings have I demonstrated apart from the ones you've made up in your own deluded head?

You seem to be against pretty standard wages. €32k isn't a lot of money for a working person in this country.

If you're not then state your position - don't just deride those who dared to question you.

Fuhrer

Allyall wrote: »

Wasn't there a well known company that put in their bid, and were expected to get it?

Along the lines of, we'll supply and install all of the water meters free of charge, and we'll only charge for the maintenance. Which is pretty much the done thing throughout Europe.

As you said, it wouldn't have cost them buckets load of cash, the infrastructure is already in place. But for some reason, this lot have made it much more difficult than it needs to be.

Siemens offered to install Water Meters for free or some such but they're bid was rejected for no reason and the contract was given to Dennis O'Brien for some reason.

Fukuyama

Allyall wrote: »

This.
Wasn't there a well known company that put in their bid, and were expected to get it?

Along the lines of, we'll supply and install all of the water meters free of charge, and we'll only charge for the maintenance. Which is pretty much the done thing throughout Europe.
As you said, it wouldn't have cost them buckets load of cash, the infrastructure is already in place. But for some reason, this lot have made it much more difficult than it needs to be.

No. No it's not.

Ireland population is going to grow considerably over the next few decades. This, accompanied by badly needed new housing along with the need for a re-build of the existing infrastructure is why IW is a necessity.

Phoebas

Fuhrer wrote: »

What Socialist/Pro Left leanings have I demonstrated apart from the ones you've made up in your own deluded head?

The development of the Volkswagen for one.

Allyall

Fuhrer wrote: »

Siemens offered to install Water Meters for free or some such but they're bid was rejected for no reason and the contract was given to Dennis O'Brien for some reason.

If Siemens had got it, it would have looked like Cronyism. They needed to put someone with a track record of installing water meters in to the position.

AboutaWeekAgo

Dean0088 wrote: »

You seem to be against pretty standard wages. €32k isn't a lot of money for a working person in this country.

If you're not then state your position - don't just deride those who dared to question you.

32k would be a hell of a lot more than I am earning or most of the people I know are. It's not the average wage.

Marion Morrison

Fuhrer wrote: »

Siemens offered to install Water Meters for free or some such but they're bid was rejected for no reason and the contract was given to Dennis O'Brien for some reason.

If Siemens were willing to do that, it shows how much profit is in for the cronies.
The usual suspects are now set up for life, and so are their childrens children.

Fuhrer

Dean0088 wrote: »

You seem to be against pretty standard wages. €32k isn't a lot of money for a working person in this country.

If you're not then state your position - don't just deride those who dared to question you.

The two of you are just making up complete lies to support your warped and hostile views.


I asked how was 32k a basic salary, you or one of the others said it was standard for graduates which is demonstrably false.

hmmm

It's 100 people, so what? There's plenty of rent-a-mob socialist workers party types who will go to any demonstration, anywhere at a drop of the hat. Their aim, as ever, is some mythical "workers revolution", where if they can stoke enough anger and agitation their leadership will be swept into power in an overthrow of the democratic government. We've had similar agitation with bins, property tax etc. , they're pushing hard on this one because they think that they can "mobilise" (listen for that word on radio/tv) ordinary people to join their cause.

What has happened with the treatment meted out to Joan Burton in Tallaght is that these same "ordinary" people, who might be opposed to paying more tax, are realising that their support for these protests is giving fuel to the hard left types who want to pull down the entire state and rebuild it in the image of the Russian revolution/Eastern Europe. That's why the government haven't folded completely on IW, but have offered such a low cost that they hope to get most people on-side.

The alternative here is for the government to fall, Gerry Adams as Taioseach and Paul Murphy as Minister for Finance. Very few people who have a job or who contribute to society are going to wish for this.

Phoebas

Fuhrer wrote: »

Siemens offered to install Water Meters for free or some such but they're bid was rejected for no reason and the contract was given to Dennis O'Brien for some reason.

They're an altruistic bunch over at Siemens.

Allyall

Dean0088 wrote: »

No. No it's not.

Ireland population is going to grow considerably over the next few decades. This, accompanied by badly needed new housing along with the need for a re-build of the existing infrastructure is why IW is a necessity.

Place the then needed infrastructure as and where it grows, the difficult part is already in place.

Woodville56

Fuhrer wrote: »

What Socialist/Pro Left leanings have I demonstrated apart from the ones you've made up in your own deluded head?

Ok, so now you've got ur cheap shot in, can you now answer the question, do you believe someone earning €32k , say an engineer, nurse, civil servant , is overpaid ?

AboutaWeekAgo

hmmm wrote: »

It's 100 people, so what? There's plenty of rent-a-mob socialist workers party types who will go to any demonstration, anywhere at a drop of the hat. Their aim, as ever, is some mythical "workers revolution", where if they can stoke enough anger and agitation their leadership will be swept into power in an overthrow of the democratic government. We've had similar agitation with bins, property tax etc. , they're pushing hard on this one because they think that they can "mobilise" (listen for that word on radio/tv) ordinary people to join their cause.

Aye and it was only 100,000 people in Dublin and 150,000 people all over the country. Stop talking through your ring, I can't wait till December 10th rolls around

Caliden

Dean0088 wrote: »

What would you think is a fair wage for such a job?

40k? Super market line managers earn more.

I really think you don't know anything about the type of positions these people fill and are just citing numbers to be outraged.

€70k a year for a top level manager at a semi-state utility (particularly with conditions like 24/7 on-call etc...) isn't corruption or palm greasing. It's fair wage.

Who are the 127 managing??

70k is the basic wage. They are entitled to an extra 10k for vehicle use if they are on-call 24/7/365 so 80k p.a. so let's get that straight.


Private construction companies have less employees and less managers yet they can manage multiple sites/projects at once.

I cannot fathom how it's possible to have that many people getting over 70k in the same company.


I'm all for paying a fair wage for the job but the salary breakdown and number of employees should be shaped like a pyramid, i.e. very few at the top earning high wages (and justifiably so) who manage multiple direct employees below who earn less.

I used the word 'direct' as contractors (meter installation) are contractors and require very little in terms of management, as they have their own management team.

A contract would be agreed upon by both sides and the work begins, it doesn't take 127 people on Irish Water's part to do that....

Streetwalker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkZxyCpdF4&feature=youtu.be

Bye bye Enda. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. This government won't last until the 10th. There are people in my job who have said they where undecided on the water charge yet in regards paying or not but this weeks antics from the government have put them firmly in the "We won't pay" camp.

Fukuyama

Fuhrer wrote: »

Siemens offered to install Water Meters for free or some such but they're bid was rejected for no reason and the contract was given to Dennis O'Brien for some reason.

That's a lie.

They offered to install the meters on the basis of a "loan" to the government, and would then be paid back by the government by having control over IW and charges. So effectively, the government turned down an offer by a private corporation to take control over Ireland's water - you'd think you'd be jumping for joy.

Get your facts straight.

Muahahaha

Huge display of people power in Cork this morning to meet Enda Kenny. The game is up for this govt IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkZxyCpdF4

Frog Song

Stargate wrote: »

Enda in Cork .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkZxyCpdF4

You were there, how many people did you think were there out of interest? Radio One just now saying 200, local radio saying 500.

In Lonesome Dove

Dean0088 wrote: »

What would you think is a fair wage for such a job?

40k? Super market line managers earn more.

I really think you don't know anything about the type of positions these people fill and are just citing numbers to be outraged.

€70k a year for a top level manager at a semi-state utility (particularly with conditions like 24/7 on-call etc...) isn't corruption or palm greasing. It's fair wage.

How come a 'fair wage' as you call it, can only be afforded to pay these guys? The rest of society especially the unemployed looking for work is faced with being degraded in their search for work with internships and other schemes. I think it's gateway scheme, unemployed people do local council work like as an example sweeping the streets and emptying bins. The work is there for these people but they don't want to turn these into proper paying jobs. How come these people on such schemes aren't entitled to a fair wage?

Fuhrer

Woodville56 wrote: »

Ok, so now you've got ur cheap shot in, can you now answer the question, do you believe someone earning €32k , say an engineer, nurse, civil servant , is overpaid ?

Im sorry, my cheap shot?


You made some snide remark about political leanings informing my questions and when asked to back that up with some actual evidence, you're the one getting offended?


This was a very clear point you put forth that I questioned you about, that 32k was a basic level of pay for someone working at Irish Water. One of the others said that 32k was standard for a graduate.

Just taking your example, your average nursing graduate can expect about 22k a year.

Allyall

Dean0088 wrote: »

That's a lie.

They offered to install the meters on the basis of a "loan" to the government, and would then be paid back by the government by having control over IW and charges. So effectively, the government turned down an offer by a private corporation to take control over Ireland's water - you'd think you'd be jumping for joy.

Get your facts straight.

Your facts aren't correct either.
They didn't want control over IW or the charges, they wanted the maintenace contract. The same one that is in place in most of Germany and in much of France.

Red Pepper

Dean0088 wrote: »

If a center-right party with no cronyism or political games emerged I'd vote for them in a heart beat.

You obviously have heard of Red Pepper's Peoples Party (RPPP).
We will be whatever you want us to be. Please donate.

Fukuyama

Caliden wrote: »

Who are the 127 managing??

70k is the basic wage. They are entitled to an extra 10k for vehicle use if they are on-call 24/7/365 so 80k p.a. so let's get that straight.


Private construction companies have less employees and less managers yet they can manage multiple sites/projects at once.

I cannot fathom how it's possible to have that many people getting over 70k in the same company.


I'm all for paying a fair wage for the job but the salary breakdown and number of employees should be shaped like a pyramid, i.e. very few at the top earning high wages (and justifiably so) who manage multiple direct employees below who earn less.

I used the word 'direct' as contractors (meter installation) are contractors and require very little in terms of management, as they have their own management team.

A contract would be agreed upon by both sides and the work begins, it doesn't take 127 people on Irish Water's part to do that....

So you want IW have a wide bottom (ie. load of employees) when it'c cheaper to outsource to experienced private companies (GMC etc...). Where your logic here?

IW manages publicly-tendered contractors. Do you want people on €40 k managing this?

Private companies have less managers and less employees - that's because there is no one private company big enough to fulfill an entire national infrastructure project. Which is why we create IW, essentially a holding corp with management and admin functions to oversee dozens of smaller private companies who'll actually be the ones digging holes, laying pipes etc...

127 people is not a lot of people for a project this size.

Fukuyama

Allyall wrote: »

Your facts aren't correct either.
They didn't want control over IW or the charges, they wanted the maintenace contract. The same one that is in place in most of Germany and in much of France.

Siemens are a private corporation with shareholders. They've no vested interest in doing the government a solid by saying "Ah sure - we'll install your meter for free! As a thank you for Ardnacrusha lads! ". Their bid was rejected by the state contracts committee because it worked out in favour of Siemens in the long-run.

Siemens took one look at Ireland's infrastructure - what they saw was a chance to throw a load of water meters in the ground and pay the costs out of pocket, and then enjoy the next fifty years of milking the state for maintaining a network that needs replacing.

If the government in five years time ever got smart with Siemens and tried to re-negotiate the ****ty deal, all Siemens would have to do it start turning the valves righty tighty in the name of "maintenance works". The public would then put pressure on the politicians to invest more in the infrastructure, hence more money for Siemens.

It was a crap deal for Ireland.

SaveOurLyric

Caliden wrote: »

70k is the basic wage. They are entitled to an extra 10k for vehicle use if they are on-call 24/7/365 so 80k p.a. so let's get that straight

I cannot fathom how it's possible to have that many people getting over 70k in the same company.

Fair play to you for admitting you dont understand it. Far too many people here commenting and offering opinions on what it takes to run a water service for the whole country when its clear they havent a notion whats involved.
Its a complicated business, requires specialist technical knowledge, and serous managment skills to run. Joe Soap cannot do it. People who dont know anything about the business should stop drawing conclusions from their base of complete ignorance.

SaveOurLyric

The self deception here by those thinking they will be paying less for their water services due to the changes in payment method of Tuesday is astounding. IW will still receive the same amount money from them. The cost of providing the service has not changed a cent. Nor will it.