IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Fukuyama

Fuhrer wrote: »

Im sorry, my cheap shot?


You made some snide remark about political leanings informing my questions and when asked to back that up with some actual evidence, you're the one getting offended?


This was a very clear point you put forth that I questioned you about, that 32k was a basic level of pay for someone working at Irish Water. One of the others said that 32k was standard for a graduate.

Just taking your example, your average nursing graduate can expect about 22k a year.

I said €32k was standard for a graduate with 3/4 years experience - and it's only fair that it is.

The average Irish nurse earns way more than €22k when they graduate. Why? Because they go to London because they can't get decent wages in Ireland! ;)

Frog Song

Frog Song wrote: »

You were there, how many people did you think were there out of interest? Radio One just now saying 200, local radio saying 500.

That includes shoppers..........

Woodville56

U

Fuhrer wrote: »

Im sorry, my cheap shot?


You made some snide remark about political leanings informing my questions and when asked to back that up with some actual evidence, you're the one getting offended?


This was a very clear point you put forth that I questioned you about, that 32k was a basic level of pay for someone working at Irish Water. One of the others said that 32k was standard for a graduate.

Just taking your example, your average nursing graduate can expect about 22k a year.

A graduate engineer in a local authority salary with a few years service earns around €32k as I understand it and a nurse or garda on mid point salary will probably earn a bit more - once again can I ask , do you feel these people are overpaid ?

AboutaWeekAgo

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Fair play to you for admitting you dont understand it. Far too many people here commenting and offering opinions on what it takes to run a water service for the whole country when its clear they havent a notion whats involved.
Its a complicated business, requires specialist technical knowledge, and serous managment skills to run. Joe Soap cannot do it. People who dont know anything about the business should stop drawing conclusions from their base of complete ignorance.

Joe Soap cannot do it??? Then can you explain why people like Hubert Kearns were hired????

Caliden

Dean0088 wrote: »

So you want IW have a wide bottom (ie. load of employees) when it'c cheaper to outsource to experienced private companies (GMC etc...). Where your logic here?

IW manages publicly-tendered contractors. Do you want people on €40 k managing this?

Private companies have less managers and less employees - that's because there is no one private company big enough to fulfill an entire national infrastructure project. Which is why we create IW, essentially a holding corp with management and admin functions to oversee dozens of smaller private companies who'll actually be the ones digging holes, laying pipes etc...

127 people is not a lot of people for a project this size.

Didn't say I want lots of employees, I said it's a top heavy wage breakdown.

Didn't say I wanted people on 40k managing it, pay them what the job deserves (like the private sector?).


There are 26 counties in the Republic.
Let's exclude the board because let's be real here, they will be overseeing.

So 118 earning over 70k managing 26 counties, that's over 4.5 for each county.

You clutching at straws here to justify those wages.

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. FG/Lab were handed a poisoned chalice. FF knew they were finished, so sold us down the river. IMO, FG/Lab haven't done too bad a job. I've always looked on the water protests as early electioneering by the left.

Sorry, I don't buy that excuse from you any more than I do from Enda everytime he comes out with it to deflect from his and his Government's performance.

FF may have wrecked the place by buying elections, but FG/LAB came in "fresh" on a platform of reform, transparency, an end to the "old ways" etc - instead we just got more of the same as they continued the same policies of their predecessors AND the same old corrupt cronyism and incompetence (IW is but the latest example.. we had Reilly and the Primary Care centres, Shatter and Calinan, Hogan etc)

FG/LAB have had 3 years to change things (as they committed to) and they've done feck all but are of course first in line to claim credit for jobs created by the private sector under policies and grants established long before their time. Their Jobbridge scam and pushing young people abroad or back under Mammy and Daddy's roof - assuming they can afford to keep them! - certainly hasn't done much.

Nor has their policy of targeting those who are the most vulnerable in our society through both direct policy and media/spin tactics of splitting the electorate to try and turn one side against another (employed vs unemployed, public vs private sector, union vs non-union etc etc).

FG/LAB cemented the deal to offload private debt onto the taxpayer and have further reduced the legitimacy of our so-called democracy through guillotining legislation (in the dead of night on occasion) with little or no debate, Kenny's "gang of four" Economic Management Council which reduces the rest of the Dail to rubber stamps and which one of his own backbenchers has suggested may well be unconstitutional, and the arrogant condescending attitude of Kenny himself - refusing to debate or engage with the public that elected him unless safely behind a TV screen or hurling playground insults at the opposition

FF may have led us to the edge of the cliff, but FG/LAB enthusiastically hurled us off it for nothing more than an "attaboy" from Merkel, Sarkozy and co.

The ONLY thing FG/LAB have actually managed to do, is make FF a viable alternative in the next GE again... and that's some achievement after 2011, but it also explains why FG have never had 2 consecutive terms in office!

Banjo String

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. FG/Lab were handed a poisoned chalice. FF knew they were finished, so sold us down the river. IMO, FG/Lab haven't done too bad a job. I've always looked on the water protests as early electioneering by the left.

FF didn't write FGs pre-election slogans or burning bondholders, an end to corruption, cronyism, nepotism, and honesty and transparency.

Enda and co got caught just one too many times with their hand in the cookie jar, he public have had enough, and now it's time to reap what they sowed.

Caliden

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Fair play to you for admitting you dont understand it. Far too many people here commenting and offering opinions on what it takes to run a water service for the whole country when its clear they havent a notion whats involved.
Its a complicated business, requires specialist technical knowledge, and serous managment skills to run. Joe Soap cannot do it. People who dont know anything about the business should stop drawing conclusions from their base of complete ignorance.

166 out of Irish water's 310 employees came from local authorities.

The same people who let the water infrastructure get to the point where it is now....

Yea we definitely got the right people with the knowledge and expertise running Irish Water....

Marion Morrison

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. I'd like to believe we've reached a tipping point and people actually won't let this one go.

That yarn has been said about every financial scandal in Ireland for the last 20 years. . . . .

Who's talking about CRC, Anglo, HSE, PPARS, Pulse, Eircon, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. now ?
Even though we are still paying for them, and will be for years to come ?

It's just the same thing over, and over, and over, and over and over and over and over again .

Whinge at the time, shake the fist for a while, wag the finger, and then on with the next scandal . . . .

Drumpot

Who really thinks that "this government is gone"?

How do you work that out ? Because a few people heckled Kenny in cork?

What will happen is that the government will just keep giving concessions until the majority of the protesters give up. They will also try to keep the focus on the dopey twats at these protests who are only looking to cause trouble. .

For the government to fall either Labour have to pull out or backbenchers of FG to break off. Labour are already too entrenched and connected with the incompetency of this government so the best they (and other politicians) can do is pretty much hang in there for another year until this dies down. .

If there is one thing consistent with these kinds of protests its that people get bored, lazy or simply bought off with promises or goodies. . A fickle, shallow government , governing a fickle, shallow people . .

People thought that the answer to the FF made problems was the failed opposition politicians who were actually badgering FF during the good times to spend more ! ! !Ireland deserves this shower of incompetent , ignorant, talentless, visionless fecks...

the problem isn't the politicians, its the people who vote for specific kind of politicians. . People say "well what alternative is there?", well you actually have a set of legitimate questions for local TDs that include long term national plans and then you actually hold them to account at the next election. You don't just vote, wait 5 years and vote again. You get more engaged with the political system. . Doing nothing or not voting doesn't absolve you from responsibility, but that's exactly what people do - they blame everybody else and say that they are helpless. . Its not exclusive to Ireland, but its why the political class get away with doing so much damage with so little accountability.

AboutaWeekAgo

Marion Morrison wrote: »

That yarn has been said about every financial scandal in Ireland for the last 20 years. . . . .

Who's talking about CRC, Anglo, etc. now ?

It's just the same thing over, and over, and over, and over.

Whinge at the time, shake the fist for a while, and then on with the next scandal . . . .

Do you remember all the protests up and down the country when they happened? Hundreds of thousands of people coming out and marching? Me neither.

Marion Morrison

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

Do you remember all the protests up and down the country when they happened? Hundreds of thousands of people coming out and marching? Me neither.

Actually I do, and I was at many of them, and nothing came of them either, nada.
I'm not surprised you've forgotten all the previous protests as well, from banks to property taxes.
This time next year, you'll be complaining about the latest scandal, and it won't be Irish water.
Like all the other scams, Irish water is a done deal, the rich are already rich from it, and will be so for generations. Everything is cast in place.

Fuhrer

Woodville56 wrote: »

U
A graduate engineer in a local authority salary with a few years service earns around €32k as I understand it and a nurse or garda on mid point salary will probably earn a bit more - once again can I ask , do you feel these people are overpaid ?

Do you understand what graduate means? It means just after graduating, you cant be a graduate of something and have a few years of experience in it.


Looking back over your posts, you seem to have me confused with another poster who said something about endemically overpaid, its alright, ill wait for your apology.

Fukuyama

Caliden wrote: »

Didn't say I want lots of employees, I said it's a top heavy wage breakdown.

Didn't say I wanted people on 40k managing it, pay them what the job deserves (like the private sector?).


There are 26 counties in the Republic.
Let's exclude the board because let's be real here, they will be overseeing.

So 118 earning over 70k managing 26 counties, that's over 4.5 for each county.

You clutching at straws here to justify those wages.

Board Gáis is am apt comparison as they are the only other state utility that oversee a piped network to virtually every urban home in the country.

You're asking me to justify employee numbers at IW.

Fine.

Customer Service dept. Admin dept. Finance Dept. Engineering (huge). Operations (huge). Human Resources. Marketing.

This company is big because it should be - just like Eirgrid, ESB, Board Gáis and so on.

You might "feel" like 127 people on 70k+ is a big number. But you feeling are based on, from what I can tell, no real knowledge or information.

Muahahaha

Dean0088 wrote: »

That's a lie.

They offered to install the meters on the basis of a "loan" to the government, and would then be paid back by the government by having control over IW and charges. So effectively, the government turned down an offer by a private corporation to take control over Ireland's water - you'd think you'd be jumping for joy.

Get your facts straight.

Where did Siemens ever demand full control of Irish Water and the actual selling of water? I thought the deal was install meters for 'free' with the cost paid back as a percentage of the water bill. I never heard them wanting to actually control Irish Water, open to correction.

Either way there are at least two foreign companies who bid for the water meter contract and bid more than Denis O'Brien yet Phil Hogan choose Denis even though there were higher bids on the table. People should be familiar with Phil Hogans role with Denis O'Brien over the Esat phone licences and how much that whole debacle cost the state at the Moriarty tribunal. The tendering process for Irish water meter installations seems to me like questions are going to be asked and we will end up with yet another costly tribunal or enquiry with Phil Hogan and Denis O'Brien being at the centre of it once again. Already the companies who bidded more for the contracts that O'Brien did have taken legal action, when they win the lid will be blown open on the tendering process and the public will get to see what was done in our name.

Fukuyama

Fuhrer wrote: »

Do you understand what graduate means? It means just after graduating, you cant be a graduate of something and have a few years of experience in it.


Looking back over your posts, you seem to have me confused with another poster who said something about endemically overpaid, its alright, ill wait for your apology.

It's not uncommon for job postings listed as "graduate" to feature a requirement of 2-3 years experience.

The title of graduate isn't lost until you've gotten a promotion, generally speaking.

Allyall

Muahahaha wrote: »

I thought the deal was install meters for 'free' with the cost paid back as a percentage of the water bill. I never heard them wanting to actually control Irish Water, open to correction.

It was, or similar.

This is how it was put at the time. (It came out later that they offered the same maintenance contract as many other places.)

April 22, 2012: It’s reported that Environment Minister Phil Hogan snubbed an offer by Siemens to finance water meters that could have saved over €350m.According to the Sunday Independent Siemens offered to foot the €810m-plus cost of installing meters in 1.3 million Irish homes back in 2010, but Mr Hogan didn’t pursue the option when he took over at the Department of the Environment. It’s reported that Siemens proposed funding the fitting of water meters”through an investment to be paid back through savings made in the multibillion-euro cost of providing water services once the meters were installed. It’s reported that Mr Kruckow made the offer publicly in 2010 and sought discussions with the then Finance Minister, the late Brian Lenihan. It’s reported that Phil Hogan’s predecessor John Gormley was “enthusiastic” about the Siemens offer at the time but it wasn’t progressed once Mr Hogan became Environment Minister. The Sunday Independent reported that, when asked why it hadn’t pursued the Siemens offer, the Department of the Environment didn’t supply an explanation, but said it ‘had chosen the Irish Water option after 12 months of discussions with stakeholders as “the optimal organisational form for water services delivery in Ireland”‘‘.

FROM HERE

They have different contracts in place depending on where you go, from running the water companies, to just having maintenance, and in few instances getting paid just for the meters and installation. The offer in Ireland was allegedly the same as the contracts in (Geographically) South and West Germany and many different areas in France.

Banjo String

Marion Morrison wrote: »

Actually I do, and I was at many of them, and nothing came of them either, nada.
I'm not surprised you've forgotten all the previous protests as well, from banks to property taxes.
This time next year, you'll be complaining about the latest scandal, and it won't be Irish water.
Like all the other scams, Irish water is a done deal, the rich are already rich from it, and will be so for generations. Everything is cast in place.

What a load of waffle.

Irish Water is, but a billing company. Set-up to send out bills.

For them to "be rich" of us, is entirely reliant on a very important factor. People paying them.

That looks very bad for Irish Water I'm afraid.

Caliden

Dean0088 wrote: »

Board Gáis is am apt comparison as they are the only other state utility that oversee a piped network to virtually every urban home in the country.

You're asking me to justify employee numbers at IW.

Fine.

Customer Service dept. Admin dept. Finance Dept. Engineering (huge). Operations (huge). Human Resources. Marketing.

This company is big because it should be - just like Eirgrid, ESB, Board Gáis and so on.

You might "feel" like 127 people on 70k+ is a big number. But you feeling are based on, from what I can tell, no real knowledge or information.

Working with a multi-national. You're not making any sense.

Fukuyama

Muahahaha wrote: »

Where did Siemens ever demand full control of Irish Water and the actual selling of water? I thought the deal was install meters for 'free' with the cost paid back as a percentage of the water bill. I never heard them wanting to actually control Irish Water, open to correction.

From what I can tell Siemens were using the political hot potato to get a nice long-term money maker for themselves.

We'd be still paying for the meters 20 years down the line while Siemens locked themselves into a fat maintenance deal to boot. The idea of maintaining a crippled network is music to the ears of any maintenance function of a company.

Woodville56

Just one further question for those who would support a SF /Socialist government - how would Taoiseach Higgins or Finance Minister Murphy deal with our paymasters in Brussels and Frankfurt or with those who would invest in business expansion in our country ? Because at the end of the day " it's the economy stupid" argument is what our future is at . I've yet to hear a coherent and workable finance policy for sustained economic growth from anyone of the Left. We're not self sustaining financially, so who'se going to lend to us or invest in us if what they're hearing is Paul Murphy telling everyone that once we were afraid of the government and now they're afraid of us ? ( paraphrased from his radio interview yesterday)

Peist2007

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

FF may have led us to the edge of the cliff, but FG/LAB enthusiastically hurled us off it for nothing more than an "attaboy" from Merkel, Sarkozy and co.

What a load of sh1te. You would call signing the Bank guarantee as "leading us to the cliff"? The freefall has obviously messed with your brain

Fukuyama

Caliden wrote: »

Working with a multi-national. You're not making any sense.

If you're working with a multi-national, then you'll know that anyone above mid-level manager is on a minimum of €60k.

Marion Morrison

Banjo String wrote: »

What a load of waffle.

Irish Water is, but a billing company. Set-up to send out bills.

For them to "be rich" of us, is entirely reliant on a very important factor. People paying them.

That looks very bad for Irish Water I'm afraid.

I heard all the same bluffs about not paying the property tax. now 90% are paying.

The same with every other scandal in Ireland over the last 30 years.

The Irish peope will whine and whinge and then in secret pay up, they always do.

Caliden

Dean0088 wrote: »

If you're working with a multi-national, then you'll know that anyone above mid-level manager is on a minimum of €60k.

Yea, they are and they manage people.

I'll ask my question again, 127 out of 310 earn over 70k.
So you're saying that they're each assigned 1-2 employee(s) to manage?

Marion Morrison

The Irish people have always rolled over. From everything from PMPA, to Eircon, to Irish beef, to Irish Sugar, to Irish Steel, to Irish fishing, to PPARS, to PULSE, to Irish oil and Gas, to CRC, to Anglo, to the banks, to property charges, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on. The people complain and whinge at the time, then nothing is done, its all forgotton and onto the next scandal.

This time next year Irish water will still be creaming it, and there won't be a whimper.

We'll be whinging and crying about the next scandal, saying 'this is the final straw', just like we were with the CRC, and anglo, all the rest.

I've heard that a hundred thousand times before in this country.

Woodville56

Fuhrer wrote: »

Do you understand what graduate means? It means just after graduating, you cant be a graduate of something and have a few years of experience in it.


Looking back over your posts, you seem to have me confused with another poster who said something about endemically overpaid, its alright, ill wait for your apology.

Then wait and wait and wait .... I'm just asking for you view giving that you seem to hold anyone who works for IW in such disdain - is someone there or any other mid point public servant overpaid at €32 k ? Simple question

Fuhrer

Woodville56 wrote: »

Then wait and wait and wait .... I'm just asking for you view giving that you seem to hold anyone who works for IW in such disdain - is someone there or any other mid point public servant overpaid at €32 k ? Simple question

Again, you're just inventing positions to back up your deluded view points.


Show me one post of mine where I said that?


I mean, you are after all someone who hates immigrants and minorities. I know I dont have any actual evidence of this but as you seem free to make up whatever you want and say it, why not me?

shinzon

Marion Morrison wrote: »

I heard all the same bluffs about not paying the property tax. now 90% are paying.

In fairness nobody had any choice about the property tax because it was deducted from source anyways with revenue and still is. With Irish water everyone has a choice not to pay, they've rowed back so far at this stage that no one that does pay will be penalised in any great manner all that will happen is the charge will be applied to you property at the moment thats as far as they'll go as john Tierney said yesterday the dont want to see anyone in court. And as most cant afford to move anymore who cares what levied against the property. You could well be right but in this instance I doubt it they've gone one Tax to far.

Shin

Red Pepper

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Sorry, I don't buy that excuse from you any more than I do from Enda everytime he comes out with it to deflect from his and his Government's performance.

FF may have wrecked the place by buying elections, but FG/LAB came in "fresh" on a platform of reform, transparency, an end to the "old ways" etc - instead we just got more of the same as they continued the same policies of their predecessors AND the same old corrupt cronyism and incompetence (IW is but the latest example.. we had Reilly and the Primary Care centres, Shatter and Calinan, Hogan etc)

FG/LAB have had 3 years to change things (as they committed to) and they've done feck all but are of course first in line to claim credit for jobs created by the private sector under policies and grants established long before their time. Their Jobbridge scam and pushing young people abroad or back under Mammy and Daddy's roof - assuming they can afford to keep them! - certainly hasn't done much.

Nor has their policy of targeting those who are the most vulnerable in our society through both direct policy and media/spin tactics of splitting the electorate to try and turn one side against another (employed vs unemployed, public vs private sector, union vs non-union etc etc).

FG/LAB cemented the deal to offload private debt onto the taxpayer and have further reduced the legitimacy of our so-called democracy through guillotining legislation (in the dead of night on occasion) with little or no debate, Kenny's "gang of four" Economic Management Council which reduces the rest of the Dail to rubber stamps and which one of his own backbenchers has suggested may well be unconstitutional, and the arrogant condescending attitude of Kenny himself - refusing to debate or engage with the public that elected him unless safely behind a TV screen or hurling playground insults at the opposition

FF may have led us to the edge of the cliff, but FG/LAB enthusiastically hurled us off it for nothing more than an "attaboy" from Merkel, Sarkozy and co.

The ONLY thing FG/LAB have actually managed to do, is make FF a viable alternative in the next GE again... and that's some achievement after 2011, but it also explains why FG have never had 2 consecutive terms in office!

Great post Kaiser.