IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

Pocoyo

zerks wrote: »

What I find odd is that a certain demographic here would be championing other countries if their population stood up to their government in the way we have here.Now that it's their own bretheren, they are calling them all kinds of names and railing against them.A very odd mindset.

Very typical of some irish its known as the 'Up their own hole' mindset.

With this protest movement that way of thinking is changing people with that mentality will be be socially shunned.

twowheelsgood

zerks wrote: »

What I find odd is that a certain demographic here would be championing other countries if their population stood up to their government in the way we have here.Now that it's their own bretheren, they are calling them all kinds of names and railing against them.A very odd mindset.

I haven't called any protesters any names. But I'm railing against them because I think they are short sighted.

The bottom line question is : will Ireland be better off if the current protest succeeds. For me the answer is no.

Which of course is not to say that the protests won't succeed, or have a measure of success. Personally I think Christmas will be their biggest problem.

Tinkersbell

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I haven't called any protesters any names. But I'm railing against them because I think they are short sighted.

The bottom line question is : will Ireland be better off if the current protest succeeds. For me the answer is no.

Which of course is not to say that the protests won't succeed, or have a measure of success. Personally I think Christmas will be their biggest problem.

April 2015, when there's mass non payment of the water tax, will be FG's biggest problem...if they're still in government then.

Pocoyo

Tinkersbell wrote: »

April 2015, when there's mass non payment of the water tax, will be FG's biggest problem...if they're still in government then.

I truly dont believe they will last that long.

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

April 2015, when there's mass non payment of the water tax, will be FG's biggest problem...if they're still in government then.

There certainly will be a challenge (which may fail) to bed the thing down. But if it does, and the protests fade, then I expect most people will eventually pay.

Most people pay their TV licence (which is a similar ball park amount) but there is a far flimsier case to support the paying of this than water charges.

And the end of the government’s time in office can only be determined by the government. Call that a failure of the system if you like, but that is how it is.

Tinkersbell

Pocoyo wrote: »

I truly dont believe they will last that long.

FG and Labour will hang on as long as they can.
There's a lot of state boards to be stuffed with their cronies....

Help!!!!

Interesting read

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-irish-government-is-not-required-to-implement-water-charges-on-households-1.2009288#.VG861Xo9EMs.facebook

shinzon

Its all a moot point anyways if Irish water doesn't pass the European market corporation test, just because Enda Kenny says its going to it doesn't necessarily mean it will

make no mistake our European pay masters want the original water charges structure in place and this test would be the perfect time for them to trip this government up and with them seemingly not having a plan B if they fail the test it really will be interesting times

Shin

Tinkersbell

Help!!!! wrote: »

Interesting read

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-irish-government-is-not-required-to-implement-water-charges-on-households-1.2009288#.VG861Xo9EMs.facebook

If FG availed of article 9.4 they'd have to acknowledge that FF put it in place......

Streetwalker

twowheelsgood wrote: »

So are you proposing we renege on our national debt?

Would have been behind that very idea in 2008 and still am. Money lenders will lend again they don't care about the past only in terms of the future. Most people in the finance sector had written off the money they owed us anyway (that's the game they are in) until the fu ckwits in power decided to pay it back.

twowheelsgood

Streetwalker wrote: »

Would have been behind that very idea in 2008 and still am. Money lenders will lend again they don't care about the past only in terms of the future. Most people in the finance sector had written off the money they owed us anyway (that's the game they are in) until the fu ckwits in power decided to pay it back.

We needed to borrow 20 billion in 2008 for the day to day running of the country. Who do you think would have lent us that money if we had signalled at that very time that we were not prepared to honour our sovereign debt?

There were few takers even without us sending that signal.

Or are you proposing that we should have made the 20 billion budget adjustment in one swoop?

Tony EH

Highflyer13 wrote: »

I think he is talking about the layers upon layers of uneeded management in the public sector that do feck all and are an absolute drain on the economy. These guys are protected by the unions who are seemingly untouchable.

So what happens? Sack them? Put yet more people on the dole?

The same guy probably then moans about scroungers on the dole.

The mid level mickey mouse managers aren't the problem. It's useless "do nothing" millionaires, like John Tierney, with appalling track records and already obscene pensions that are the serious drain.

If people are interested about cutting numbers in the PS, get rid of his like. Not the poor saps that actually need jobs.

Tony EH

To Elland Back wrote: »

I don't think anyone can or wants to defend Irish Water. I do, however, have a serious problem with the actions of some of the protesters and those with an alternative agenda, who are using this for their own purpose. It takes away from a very legitimate cause.

You'll find that 99.9999999% of the protesters will have a serious problem with the gougers you're talking about too.

But, fools throwing bricks at Garda cars and kids throwing water balloons should not be allowed to detract from the salient issue.

denhaagenite

zerks wrote: »

What I find odd is that a certain demographic here would be championing other countries if their population stood up to their government in the way we have here.Now that it's their own bretheren, they are calling them all kinds of names and railing against them.A very odd mindset.

I'm not railing against them, as someone said I just think it's very short sighted. Most of the anti water charges crowd don't really have a reasonable solution. And there seems to be three different kinds of opposition, anti IW (which for the record I agree with), anti water charges and anti government. And I think the anti government crowd are the biggest name callers to be honest. Please see below as an example.

Tinkersbell wrote: »

As someone posted yesterday, they'd be the ones informing on the rebels during the rising if they were alive then.
Maybe they're the descendants of grasses?

What the absolute f***. You'll be saying we took the soup next

Tony EH

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm not railing against them, as someone said I just think it's very short sighted.

I find this statement extremely ironic.

I would say that NOT protesting against a bloated and dreadful entity like Irish Water and just hoping that it will all turn out ok in the end is short sighted.

Not only short sighted, but appallingly ignorant of the facts that have been put on the table regarding its makeup, wastage and the people involved.

Highflyer13

Tony EH wrote: »

So what happens? Sack them? Put yet more people on the dole?

The same guy probably then moans about scroungers on the dole.

The mid level mickey mouse managers aren't the problem. It's useless "do nothing" millionaires, like John Tierney, with appalling track records and already obscene pensions that are the serious drain.

If people are interested about cutting numbers in the PS, get rid of his like. Not the poor saps that actually need jobs.

I didn't say sack them did I? That would be ridiculous. What I was hinting at was maybe demotions and pay cuts at the most. From what I hear performance measurement has been pretty much non existent in the public sector and as a result there are layers of unneeded and incompetent management. Promotions handed out on a whim over the years. An example would be in the likes in the HSE maybe have management re-trained to work front line jobs to get it working more efficiently. But any government that orders that is in serious trouble so they are pretty much viewed as untouchable.

And yes don't tell me about J Tierney, H Kearns and their ilk. A blight on the nation. The thought of them makes my blood boil. Obscene wages when they have not even proved anything.

hatrickpatrick

zerks wrote: »

What I find odd is that a certain demographic here would be championing other countries if their population stood up to their government in the way we have here.Now that it's their own bretheren, they are calling them all kinds of names and railing against them.A very odd mindset.

Don't agree with this to be honest, a massive number of posters here regularly post absolute bollocks like "they got what was coming to them" "what did they expect" etc when Arab regimes crack down on Arab Spring protesters. There's simply a large enough demographic which believes that blind faith in the establishment is right, and that anyone who challenges that is a scumbag.

This demographic is a little like a religion. I call them "followers of the way of eejitism".

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Proves my point totally.. fighting? Nah...just making a total pest of yourselves and showing Ireland up...and the likes of you can never ruin my day or anything. So you cannot make a point without insulting?

you must have heard your mother saying not to "show yourself up" a lot when you were young?

Why as Irish should we be ashamed about "showing ourselves up" - to who?? Those days are gone. We should be happy to live in a country where we can object, question and protest if we wish. We have been educated and have a right to question something we dont agree with without thinking we're "showing ourselves up" What a backward way of thinking? I'm surprised anyway would see it that way - but there you go

lufties

Deleted User wrote: »

you must have heard your mother saying not to "show yourself up" a lot when you were young?

Why as Irish should we be ashamed about "showing ourselves up" - to who?? Those days are gone. We should be happy to live in a country where we can object, question and protest if we wish. We have been educated and have a right to question something we dont agree with without thinking we're "showing ourselves up" What a backward way of thinking? I'm surprised anyway would see it that way - but there you go

This is gonna sound deep but I've started therapy to try rid me of this mentality of 'not showing yourself up' and the self loathing voice that preventing me to move forward.

I don't understand why irish parents tend to in grain to their kids an attitude of 'don't let the side down', it really hinders development and has a profound negative affect later.

Flex

Tony EH wrote: »

So what happens? Sack them? Put yet more people on the dole?

The same guy probably then moans about scroungers on the dole.

The mid level mickey mouse managers aren't the problem. It's useless "do nothing" millionaires, like John Tierney, with appalling track records and already obscene pensions that are the serious drain.

If people are interested about cutting numbers in the PS, get rid of his like. Not the poor saps that actually need jobs.

While I agree with you regards john tierny and so on, I disagree with the rest. We can't just employ people in the state sector for the sake of employing people, it wastes money that could be used elsewhere or not taken in tax in the first place and turns the public sector into some bizarre extension of social welfare where the mission is to just to create overstaffed quangos, like Irish Water

That's a major gripe with Irish Water; they're employing ~4,500 people to do the work of ~2,000 (which is supposedly going to cost €2b by 2020)

michael999999

eug87 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.
Right don't understand your logic on the last line because the biggest parasites in public sector history plus party interests are running the show in Irish water.
John Tierney,
responsible for poolbeg incinerator Not one brick laid down cost 100million.

Hubert Kearns
Sligo County Manager leaving in his wake a crippling debt of €80million.

Coleman Sheehy
The brother of a Fine Gael donor that donated thousands for FG campaign.

Billy Moore
also chairman of the Longford Westmeath Labour party.

Mark Mortell
Former FG adviser recieved 10k for some consultancy work so far.

Jacqueline Hall
10-year stint at Rehab as business development manager.

So far, Irish Water has clocked up €86m in consultants' fees, with the usual suspects like former Anglo auditors Ernst & Young, blue-blood legal firm A&L Goodbody, former AIB auditor KPMG and well-connected legal firm McCann Fitzgerald mopping up around €11m in consultancy fees.

About 29 staff will earn over €100,000 at the quango with about one-third of the staff entitled to a bonus of up to 15 per cent.

Having already paid for the treatment of my water supply once already I'm no handing a extra cent to this cowboys laughing all way to the bank.

Jesus Christ!

Fine Gael are as bad as Fianna fail aren't they!

Allyall

michael999999 wrote: »

Jesus Christ!

Fine Gael are as bad as Fianna fail aren't they!

And I'm sure there are another 7 or 8 names for that list. (Actually, probably hundreds more :pac:)

Annasopra

Phoebas wrote: »

So it wasn't a protester throwing the brick at the Gardai - that was just some randomer. And the water balloon was just some kid.
And those folk who were banging on the car were just checking the suspension for Joan. And she was only stuck in 'traffic' anyway.

I can't figure out what the fuss is about.

And Joans assistant wasnt beaten up!!!!!!!

Pretzill

I haven't trawled through all the posts (so forgive me if I repeat any salient or not so salient points)

I'm in a private water scheme one of those 'so called' country people who have been metered for water and baring the brunt of charges for years. But I am adamantly against the introduction of Irish Water because a: I'm not naive enough to realise its inception won't affect me negatively and b: Like many I think enough is enough.

Now if Irish Water had decided not to pay consultants ridiculous amounts of money and actually looked at how private water schemes are run, they may have learned something and saved some money.

Currently our household has an allowance of 70 thousanf cubic meters (litres) if I exceed that I incur charges, having water consumption down to a fine art by now - my bills for the last five years have been zero. Most with the exception of a maintenence man and secretary involved in the scheme are volunteers - (no bonuses here)

I have learned having water coming out of the taps is precious and I have the utmost admiration for those volunteers that make it so.

It's a far cry from standing charges, usage bills - low usage allowances etc - it's fair. Irish water aren't and I know in years to come they will have hijacked every private scheme in the country and all my well meant water savings will be literally down the drain!


I also believe in our democratic right to protest and that's why I have taken part in local marches and will march on the 10th. Because it's not about water quality, water conservation or water consumption. This is a tax that's unfair and greedy. If you want people to conserve water offer them an equitable allowance so that by making a few changes to consumption means bills can come in as zero or as low as possible.

shinzon

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

And Joans assistant wasnt beaten up!!!!!!!

I knew this story would end up in here, if you read the headline it says and I quote

"Burton associate ‘kicked and beaten’ in Jobstown protest, claims Begg"

Not 100% definitively but claimed she was and I find it highly suspicious that with all the hysteria surrounding the water balloon and Joan giving her statement and everything written about jobstown that this is only coming to light now forgive me if im highly sceptical of this mans claims.

However if this did happen then whoever did it should be arrested and thrown in jail simple as.

Original article here

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/burton-associate-kicked-and-beaten-in-jobstown-protest-claims-begg-1.2011881

Anyway as everyone on the pro side bangs on about whenever a videos posted proof is needed before I believe it unsubstantiated rumours at the moment is all this is

Shin

ThinkAboutIt

Amazing how many seats FG got when they had water meters in their plan. What percentage do you think of protesters voted for them?

Tinkersbell

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Amazing how many seats FG got when they had water meters in their plan. What percentage do you think of protesters voted for them?

Desperate times required desperate measures.

We're not desperate now......

ThinkAboutIt

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Desperate times required desperate measures.

We're not desperate now......

So we're in a better position, and have more money in our pocket, so don't want to pay?

eug87

shinzon wrote: »

I knew this story would end up in here, if you read the headline it says and I quote

"Burton associate ‘kicked and beaten’ in Jobstown protest, claims Begg"

Not 100% definitively but claimed she was and I find it highly suspicious that with all the hysteria surrounding the water balloon and Joan giving her statement and everything written about jobstown that this is only coming to light now forgive me if im highly sceptical of this mans claims.

However if this did happen then whoever did it should be arrested and thrown in jail simple as.

Original article here

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/burton-associate-kicked-and-beaten-in-jobstown-protest-claims-begg-1.2011881

Anyway as everyone on the pro side bangs on about whenever a videos posted proof is needed before I believe it unsubstantiated rumours at the moment is all this is

Shin

Agree.
So after a week of non-stop talking about the protests in Jobstown this just happens to be forgotten to only now?
It's becoming desperate now this is only an excuse for Mr Beggs to halt the trade union to strike.

Also from Mr Beggs
''The Government’s changes to the water charges scheme represented “a good settlement and should be accepted”.
Basically towing the government line this guy just like Labour doesn't represent the working class.
These guys in the trade unions are institutionalised just like most of the
politicians.

Tinkersbell

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

So we're in a better position, and have more money in our pocket, so don't want to pay?

Water is the one thing that a state should provide for all it's citizens from the general tax take.
All it's citizens, millionaires or paupers.

I won't be paying a water tax. No chance.