IW/Anything Water Related-Warning in OP

SaveOurLyric

zerks wrote: »

What I find odd is that a certain demographic here would be championing other countries if their population stood up to their government in the way we have here.Now that it's their own bretheren, they are calling them all kinds of names and railing against them.A very odd mindset.

The population here has not stood up to its government.

The government is implementing improvements to its finances, revenue raising structures, essential services infrastructure, and the future security and reliability of all three. They are for the good of the population and not in anyway exploiting or abusing it. So they have no reason to 'stand up' to the government.

Rather, a portion of it has got a bee in its bonnet on a trivial topic in the overall scheme of running a country, and gotten carried away on a mass hysteria groupthink. It has left reason and perspective behind, and enjoyed a simple undergraduate type change-the-world high, and of putting one over on The Man. All with a patina of seriousness involving : human rights, data and privacy protection, political corruption, jobs and money for the fat cats, etc. All very quaint. A real 'first world problem' where those with little to truly worry about in their lives, latch on to a topic in order to have something about which to work themselves into a lather. In reality, just a passing fad.

(Where are the pints after the march on the 10th ?)

queensinead

Flex wrote: »

While I agree with you regards john tierny and so on, I disagree with the rest. We can't just employ people in the state sector for the sake of employing people, it wastes money that could be used elsewhere or not taken in tax in the first place and turns the public sector into some bizarre extension of social welfare where the mission is to just to create overstaffed quangos, like Irish Water

That's a major gripe with Irish Water; they're employing ~4,500 people to do the work of ~2,000 (which is supposedly going to cost €2b by 2020)

Why can we not "employ people in the State sector for the sake of employing people" ?

We do it in the Private Sector with Jobbridge where the state and the taxpayer pay for free labour for employers

We do this to get people off the dole queue and to give them some semblance of work, dignity and of course, money

But once private employers are benefiting, IBEC and employers groups remain silent about the taxpayer paying to keep people in employment when the money could be used for something else

One way or another, the State ends up paying. If the Irish Water staff were sacked tomorrow the State would have to pick up the tab through Social Welfare payments, pensions, or back-to-work schemes like Jobbridge or some re-training scheme.

If the staff are surplus to requirements, they can be re-deployed into areas of the PS where they are needed. Thousands of public servants have been re-deployed since the crash.

In Lonesome Dove

cajonlardo wrote: »

Less than 2 weeks ago Prime Time did a special on the "New Homeless"
People with jobs, hard working honest and decent people. A worker who is a mother and also a law student, a couple working but whose family had landed up in separate hostels. People sleeping in their cars.

So do us all a favour and live up to your user name before your next post?

I didn't see this but I very much would believe this going by my own circumstances. Around three years ago my employer couldn't pay me as much so dropped my hours. With an income down to 240 a week, I had no choice but to move back home. I just couldn't afford the rent on my place on that. Now, my hours has increased tenfold but not my wage).

queensinead

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The population here has not stood up to its government.

The government is implementing improvements to its finances, revenue raising structures, essential services infrastructure, and the future security and reliability of all three. They are for the good of the population and not in anyway exploiting or abusing it. So they have no reason to 'stand up' to the government.

Rather, a portion of it has got a bee in its bonnet on a trivial topic in the overall scheme of running a country, and gotten carried away on a mass hysteria groupthink. It has left reason and perspective behind, and enjoyed a simple undergraduate type change-the-world high, and of putting one over on The Man. All with a patina of seriousness involving : human rights, data and privacy protection, political corruption, jobs and money for the fat cats, etc. All very quaint. A real 'first world problem' where those with little to truly worry about in their lives, latch on to a topic in order to have something about which to work themselves into a lather. In reality, just a passing fad.

(Where are the pints after the march on the 10th ?)

In fairness, I think the water charge protesters are more than that. Many are feeling real austerity in their lives and have had enough.

But there is an element of truth in what you say.

The protests are spreading, a sort of contagion. The madness of crowds

Not wishing to offend anyone, but some of this reminds me of the Moving Statues in the 1980s

In the beginning it was just a small group of true-believers. Then the hysteria spread, and soon every crossroads, roadside and grotto had its group of awe-struck people swearing they could see a statue on the move and becoming enraged with anyone who dared contradict them. The media got caught up in it hugely.

There was a craze for line-dancing that swept the country also, as I recall.

Perhaps in twenty years when we're all paying for water like the rest of the world, we'll feel a little embarrassed by these mass demonstrations and the emotions around them. Sort of like the mass weeping and anger after the death of Princess Diana in the UK. People feel a little embarrassed by their excess of emotion now, at a distance.

Going Forward

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The population here has not stood up to its government.

The government is implementing improvements to its finances, revenue raising structures, essential services infrastructure, and the future security and reliability of all three. They are for the good of the population and not in anyway exploiting or abusing it. So they have no reason to 'stand up' to the government.

Rather, a portion of it has got a bee in its bonnet on a trivial topic in the overall scheme of running a country, and gotten carried away on a mass hysteria groupthink. It has left reason and perspective behind, and enjoyed a simple undergraduate type change-the-world high, and of putting one over on The Man. All with a patina of seriousness involving : human rights, data and privacy protection, political corruption, jobs and money for the fat cats, etc. All very quaint. A real 'first world problem' where those with little to truly worry about in their lives, latch on to a topic in order to have something about which to work themselves into a lather. In reality, just a passing fad.

(Where are the pints after the march on the 10th ?)

Resistance to charging was well flagged in various submissions and reports by and to government, and is being fuelled by the seemingly endless list of faux pas that have occurred.

The fact that the resistance is sustained shouldn't be a surprise.

Chucken

queensinead wrote: »

In fairness, I think the water charge protesters are more than that. Many are feeling real austerity in their lives and have had enough.




Perhaps in twenty years when we're all paying for water like the rest of the world,

Lets try this again.

We. already. pay. for. water.

queensinead

Chucken wrote: »

Lets try this again.

We. already. pay. for. water.

OK. "Paying for water in a different way than we're paying for it now"

Phew! Do I have to write that every time?

SaveOurLyric

Chucken wrote: »

Lets try this again.

We. already. pay. for. water.

Thank you. If only more could absorb this simple fact.

What a pointless storm in a tea cup all this protest get up is. Only the method by which you pay for water is being changed. Protest gang dont seem to get this point.

arse..biscuits

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Thank you. If only more could absorb this simple fact.

What a pointless storm in a tea cup all this protest get up is. Only the method by which you pay for water is being changed. Protest gang dont seem to get this point.

It's only the new payment method we are angry about? Sweet baby Allah on a Christmas tree

Highflyer13

queensinead wrote: »

In fairness, I think the water charge protesters are more than that. Many are feeling real austerity in their lives and have had enough.

But there is an element of truth in what you say.

The protests are spreading, a sort of contagion. The madness of crowds

Not wishing to offend anyone, but some of this reminds me of the Moving Statues in the 1980s

In the beginning it was just a small group of true-believers. Then the hysteria spread, and soon every crossroads, roadside and grotto had its group of awe-struck people swearing they could see a statue on the move and becoming enraged with anyone who dared contradict them. The media got caught up in it hugely.

There was a craze for line-dancing that swept the country also, as I recall.

Perhaps in twenty years when we're all paying for water like the rest of the world, we'll feel a little embarrassed by these mass demonstrations and the emotions around them. Sort of like the mass weeping and anger after the death of Princess Diana in the UK. People feel a little embarrassed by their excess of emotion now, at a distance.

Its not just about paying for water, it goes a lot further than that. Years and years of scandals, corruption, cronyism, tribunals that lead to nothing and lots of other stuff have over time slowly being driving people mad. IW water was the last straw for a nation of broken people psychologically, physically and financially and people are seizing the chance to demand change.

Its about much more than the water, much more and rightly so.

AboutaWeekAgo

queensinead wrote: »

OK. "Paying for water in a different way than we're paying for it now"

Phew! Do I have to write that every time?

I don't think anyone would mind "paying for it in a different way" if the older methods were stopped before we had the pay the new way instead of paying the old way and the new way.

twowheelsgood

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Its not just about paying for water, it goes a lot further than that. Years and years of scandals, corruption, cronyism, tribunals that lead to nothing and lots of other stuff have over time slowly being driving people mad. IW water was the last straw for a nation of broken people psychologically, physically and financially and people are seizing the chance to demand change.

Its about much more than the water, much more and rightly so.

It is substantially about the difficult financial circumstances that many find themselves in. But it most certainly is not about corruption or cronyism or the like, though I accept many think it actually is.

If you think the people have had enough of low standards in high office then you are in for a rude awakening after the next election. Because you will find that the people will cheerfully re-elect many of the same people that are now having these allegations made against them.

twowheelsgood

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

I don't think anyone would mind "paying for it in a different way" if the older methods were stopped before we had the pay the new way instead of paying the old way and the new way.

Great news! Paying only the new way is what will happen. It isn't possible to pay twice (unless you go to bizarre efforts to do so.)

Highflyer13

AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »

I don't think anyone would mind "paying for it in a different way" if the older methods were stopped before we had the pay the new way instead of paying the old way and the new way.

This, people wouldn't mind paying for water if we were not shafted and screwed over time and time again. They lied to us about IW and tried to pull the wool over peoples eyes. Obviously its just another revenue stream. Why could they not take it from the USC that was supposedly only temporary or so we were told and now it looks like its here to stay.

Going Forward

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Its not just about paying for water, it goes a lot further than that. Years and years of scandals, corruption, cronyism, tribunals that lead to nothing and lots of other stuff have over time slowly being driving people mad. IW water was the last straw for a nation of broken people psychologically, physically and financially and people are seizing the chance to demand change.

Its about much more than the water, much more and rightly so.

+1
Enda's intuitive powers even brought him to admit "This is not about water".

Time to be a leader and do something that will stop this whole affair from getting out of hand.

At this point virtually no objectives originally set out are going to be met anyway.

Scrap IW, employ some honesty, whilst at the same time withhold any mike mouse tax cuts or SW increases ahead of the next election, if this IW charge money is supposed to be so crucial to the country's survival.

There's a political choice involving losing face, and future stability of the country following the next election, FG could swing it now, or we'll likely have a hodge podge of independents and SF.

Tinkersbell

By the end of 2015 over €2 billion of our money will have been spent on IW.
What exactly will we have got for that €2 billion?

queensinead

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Its not just about paying for water, it goes a lot further than that. Years and years of scandals, corruption, cronyism, tribunals that lead to nothing and lots of other stuff have over time slowly being driving people mad. IW water was the last straw for a nation of broken people psychologically, physically and financially and people are seizing the chance to demand change.

Its about much more than the water, much more and rightly so.

Is this true for all protesters,though?

Are some of them just protesting against water charges, or are they really protesting, as you claim, against the years of scandal, corruption, cronyism, tribunals and so on?

How do we know they're all protesting against the same thing?

Enda Kenny said about the Jobstown protest "It's not about water" Was he right?

When RTE did a vox pop on the day of the mass peaceful protests, what surprised me was the variety of answers given. Some protesters seemed obsessed by PPS numbers. Others insisted "I'd have no problem paying for water but....."
Still others said they would not give a penny because they were paying already
Others just wanted "this government out" and obviously had a political agenda of their own.

Surely it would make more sense to focus on one issue and fight for that with one unified voice?

Rather than this "it's about everything...it's about cronyism...it's about this government...it's about the last government too and their cronies and the tribunals that led nowhere...it's about life, death and the universe"

Red Pepper

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Thank you. If only more could absorb this simple fact.

What a pointless storm in a tea cup all this protest get up is. Only the method by which you pay for water is being changed. Protest gang dont seem to get this point.

You never replied to my post. It's much more brave to ignore it and post meaningless waffle?

I'll give you another try...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93125664&postcount=2305

Highflyer13

Going Forward wrote: »

+1
Enda's intuitive powers even brought him to admit "This is not about water".

Time to be a leader and do something that will stop this whole affair from getting out of hand.

At this point virtually no objectives originally set out are going to be met anyway.

Yep and this debacle has shown that he is not that. The man is completely out of touch. Leo or Richard B are waiting in the wings. A new approach is needed if FG can salvage anything from this.

AboutaWeekAgo

Tinkersbell wrote: »

By the end of 2015 over €2 billion of our money will have been spent on IW.
What exactly will we have got for that €2 billion?

We got some very high paid consultants and some other nice things. I, for one, am very happy to pay Hubert Kearns for all the hard work he's done through the years

Oh, we also got some shiny new water meters that won't be used until 2019

Highflyer13

queensinead wrote: »

Is this true for all protesters,though?

Are some of them just protesting against water charges, or are they really protesting, as you claim, against the years of scandal, corruption, cronyism, tribunals and so on?

How do we know they're all protesting against the same thing?

Enda Kenny said about the Jobstown protest "It's not about water" Was he right?

When RTE did a vox pop on the day of the mass peaceful protests, what surprised me was the variety of answers given. Some protesters seemed obsessed by PPS numbers. Others insisted "I'd have no problem paying for water but....."
Still others said they would not give a penny because they were paying already
Others just wanted "this government out" and obviously had a political agenda of their own.

Surely it would make more sense to focus on one issue and fight for that with one unified voice?

Rather than this "it's about everything...it's about cronyism...it's about this government...it's about the last government too and their cronies and the tribunals that led nowhere...it's about life, death and the universe"

Irish Water was the catalyst to get people out on the streets when in hindsight we should probably have been out years ago. Yeah I believe everything that is bad about this country (except for a sexual abuse scandal) has possibly manifested itself in the form of Irish Water. Lies, greed, huge misuse of public funds on consultants, cronyism, alleged corruption, links to DOB, intrusions into peoples lives via PPS numbers, threats, arrogance from political elite, high salaries for non achievers and much much more. Also the anger of nobody being held to account for the crash aswell has been simmering for years and people are probably viewing IW subconsciously as another mechanism to pay back our debts.

Lord knows there has been enough scandals involving the aforementioned over the years and every bit of it has manifested in IW. People have simply been driven over the edge. I wouldn't expect it to die down soon.

SaveOurLyric

Going Forward wrote: »

+1

lScrap IW, employ some honesty, whilst at the same time withhold any mike mouse tax cuts or SW increases ahead of the next election, if this IW charge money is supposed to be so crucial to the country's survival.

They govt started out with honesty. But some people went ape. Couldn't handle the truth. Buried their heads in the sand and didn't want to know that that is what water costs. So the govt was forc d to change the line. As if they were dealing with recalcitrant children. Its sparing the rod though, and in the longer term, is to the detriment of the children.

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I asked before for people to post from anywhere round the country to see if my observation of the scene on the ground is typical. Dozens of streets and estates have been metered in the Dundalk, including my own, with no interference from protestors. I drove by many of the sites over the last few weeks and there was never any protestor presence. Those early protest by the paramilitaries petered out and apart from two incidents where IW equipment was set on fire during the night any other incidents have been only been a few at individual houses. Like the one in the video where there was a confrontation between a man an the workers.

One video like the one from Clonmel can give the impression that a whole town is out protesting. I haven't heard of any protests at meter installations in this general area, like Drogheda, Navan, Kells, Cavan etc. At this stage IW are saying they have put in half a million meters. If true, it couldn't have happened if what we see in videos from some areas of Dublin is going on everywhere.

Is there anyone here from a provincial town anywhere who has observed widespread Dublin style protests with groups standing beside workers and filming them and shouting at them? There was a radio report the other day which gave the impression that Cobh is overrun with protestors of that variety. Anywhere else?

Well for one reason, the meters here are in years and were not installed by IW but by GWS so not really relevant to the discussion.

SaveOurLyric

Red Pepper wrote: »

You never replied to my post. It's much more brave to ignore it and post meaningless waffle?

I'll give you another try...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93125664&postcount=2305

Both.

Tinkersbell

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

They govt started out with honesty. But some people went ape. Couldn't handle the truth. Buried their heads in the sand and didn't want to know that that is what water costs. So the govt was forc d to change the line. As if they were dealing with recalcitrant children. Its sparing the rod though, and in the longer term, is to the detriment of the children.

Are you suggesting we should beat our children to teach them a lesson when they don't do what they're told?

SaveOurLyric

arse..biscuits wrote: »

It's only the new payment method we are angry about? Sweet baby Allah on a Christmas tree

Exactly. So much ado about nothing. It shows how the non issue has been hijacked by those with other agendas, so that they can exploit they wider population to unwittingly, seemingly, support their caus e.

deco nate

Tinkersbell wrote: »

By the end of 2015 over €2 billion of our money will have been spent on IW.
What exactly will we have got for that €2 billion?

Water meters an f all else

SaveOurLyric

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Are you suggesting we should beat our children to teach them a lesson when they don't do what they're told?

No.

An old English phrase :
http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spare_the_rod_and_spoil_the_child

Red Pepper

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Both.

Really??? Interesting...

Given what you know, you would hire Hubert Kearns and John Tierney into Irish Water?

No wonder your username is an anagram for "Our Scary Veil".

You are a charlatan!!

:P

It's also an anagram for "Ivy Real Scour" (say it fast)

...

Tinkersbell

I see the head of Ervia has shares worth over €1million in a company called NTR plc, a company which makes over €2 million a year installing water meters here.

Nice, isn't it.