Henry handball, 5 years to the day!

gosplan

Someone should start a 'Saipan - 12.5 years to the day' thread.

Now that's one worth dragging up.

Regarding the handball,

The reason we love football and it's the global sport are because margins are so tight. It's the one sport that has a dominant random luck factor in it. What divides the big teams in big games are single moments - hopefully a single moment of genius but more often than not something missed by the ref or a dive or handball.

No-one involved should shoulder the blame, not Henry, not the ref. Football is random and not always fair.

Grow up and move on, otherwise watch Rubgy.

CSF

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Completely different scenarios. It doesn't negate the offense, but if people would stop contradicting themselves that would be great... I'd be willing to bet that if your team had done it to win you wouldn't be moaning about it.

Cheating in a SPORT being compared to robbing a bank and beating up lads? Cop on the fck.

How many people still laugh at England because they go on about Diego Maradonas handball? It's pathetical

The comparisons were clearly a joke directed at an absolutely nonsensical post pointing out how shoddy the guy's logic was, and despite their sensationalist nature they rang true.

Saipanne

They imploded in a cloud of anger at that world cup. Karma was served.

thebaz

CSF wrote: »

The comparisons were clearly a joke directed at an absolutely nonsensical post pointing out how shoddy the guy's logic was, and despite their sensationalist nature they rang true.

shoddy logic & nonsensical posts - and your the one spouting on about robbing banks , related to a ****ing handball (5 years ago)

CSF

thebaz wrote: »

shoddy logic & nonsensical posts - and your the one spouting on about robbing banks , related to a ****ing handball (5 years ago)

Hahaha I love it. I knew you wouldn't be able to provide an actual counter argument, and instead focus on obviously joking sensationalist examples to highlight how little sense your post made.

Yes I was actually legitimately comparing Thierry Henry's handball to bank robberies, and the Joan Burton Jobstown incident. That is exactly what I was doing. The parallels are endless.

CSF

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Completely different scenarios. It doesn't negate the offense, but if people would stop contradicting themselves that would be great... I'd be willing to bet that if your team had done it to win you wouldn't be moaning about it.

Cheating in a SPORT being compared to robbing a bank and beating up lads? Cop on the fck.

How many people still laugh at England because they go on about Diego Maradonas handball? It's pathetical

The 'if your team had done it' argument is flawed, because football supporters are clearly the least rational kind of people around. Take some examples and you will see that people's opinions are glazed in the coloured glasses of their chosen team. Of course I'm biased towards Ireland, I'd never claim otherwise.

But in this case, the football world were generally united in disgust at this incident at the time. Naturally the football world elsewhere aren't going to still care about it now, because they didn't have an emotional investment in it, but to all those who were shot with nerves throughout that game, with the hope of making it to South Africa, to have it stripped away from us like that, of course we're going to hold a grudge.

thebaz

CSF wrote: »

Hahaha I love it. I knew you wouldn't be able to provide an actual counter argument, and instead focus on obviously joking sensationalist examples to highlight how little sense your post made.

Yes I was actually legitimately comparing Thierry Henry's handball to bank robberies, and the Joan Burton Jobstown incident. That is exactly what I was doing. The parallels are endless.

so sad

gosplan

Actually now that I mentioned it, Saipan still bothers me way more.

That was the greatest opportunity we will have at the World Cup in any of our lives.

We would have been looking at being the 'Uruguay' of that World Cup and winning the third place match, or with a bit of luck making the final (we did draw with a finalist without Keane) and then who knows.

I'm still sick about it.

At the time Keane might have had a point but the way things have gone since, I think the learning is that when you're Ireland you need to take your chances when they come along.

Sick

bucketybuck

CSF wrote: »

football supporters are clearly the least rational kind of people around

Very clearly indeed.

Shanotheslayer

CSF wrote: »

The 'if your team had done it' argument is flawed, because football supporters are clearly the least rational kind of people around. Take some examples and you will see that people's opinions are glazed in the coloured glasses of their chosen team. Of course I'm biased towards Ireland, I'd never claim otherwise.

And this is the issue

noodler

What a way to justify cheating, by telling the victim they should have played even better.

How do you follow such stupidity through to the logical end? Did the French deserve it because they played poorly?

It was Henry's fault. We can feign outrage at the reaction at the time but it was nothing Ireland did wrong.

Sheepy99

Yes, it was about as unfair as they come. But move on, it was five years ago. Think about where/what you were at with yourself back then..

CSF

Sheepy99 wrote: »

Yes, it was about as unfair as they come. But move on, it was five years ago. Think about where/what you were at with yourself back then..

I think people have moved on. I don't think people sit up at night worrying about it, but its being discussed now, so why not be open with your feelings on it?

thebaz

noodler wrote: »

What a way to justify cheating, by telling the victim they should have played even better.

How do you follow such stupidity through to the logical end? Did the French deserve it because they played poorly?

It was Henry's fault. We can feign outrage at the reaction at the time but it was nothing Ireland did wrong.

We lost a game of football 5 years ago - Henry handled the ball , and they scored - I blame the officials for not seeing it , Henry is a professional whose job it was to win - most , I know would do the same , including me - talk of victims and replays is losing run of the event - we lost a game of football, when we played well , thats the sad part , but less of the victim. The world wasn't out to get Ireland.

the_monkey

It's not as bad as that disgracefull night in Stamford Bridge in May 2009 ...

Even though Chelsea got revenge, it built the lie that Barça became,
6 trophies that year - 3 of them immediately null and void by that disgrace.

Shanotheslayer

the_monkey wrote: »

It's not as bad as that disgracefull night in Stamford Bridge in May 2009 ...

Even though Chelsea got revenge, it built the lie that Barça became,
6 trophies that year - 3 of them immediately null and void by that disgrace.

Don't forget about Inter V Barca there either

Nerdlingr

Worse was Kilbane missing the rebound from Harte's penalty against Spain in 2002. A travesty of epic proportions!!!!

Sephiroth_dude

The hand ball pissed me off but what pissed me most was your man sepp Blatter the next day and him laughing at us with his big fat head :mad:

noodler

thebaz wrote: »

We lost a game of football 5 years ago - Henry handled the ball , and they scored - I blame the officials for not seeing it , Henry is a professional whose job it was to win - most , I know would do the same , including me - talk of victims and replays is losing run of the event - we lost a game of football, when we played well , thats the sad part , but less of the victim. The world wasn't out to get Ireland.

??

Augmerson

the_monkey wrote: »

It's not as bad as that disgracefull night in Stamford Bridge in May 2009 ...

Even though Chelsea got revenge, it built the lie that Barça became,
6 trophies that year - 3 of them immediately null and void by that disgrace.

Please expand upon your message sir.

iDave

I remember the Irish fans being epic that day. Thousands congregated at the Eifel Tower singing songs and kicking footballs around. All in good nature. On the Metro and in the stadium we were epic. The celebrating that took place when Keane scored was something I never experienced before or since.
I saw the handball from where I was. Which makes it more annoying that the ref didn't. Unbelievable deflation and a sense of robbery. I remember walking back to my hotel, a few French lads saw our jerseys, came over and started apologising and saying how embarrassed they were for winning that way.
Then Blatter acted like Blatter a few days later. Cnut.
At least Slovenia knocked Russia out that night. Not everything went to plan for FIFA.

The_Kew_Tour

My hand was in bits for bating the crap out of the advertising hoardings trying get crowd going all game.

The Irish fans were terrific that night.

We outplayed France and the French players heads dropped.

Was embarrassed about the calls for replay after though, although I'm convinced we would have won Peno shootout just by how nervous most of French team looked.

Duffs chance....

thebaz

noodler wrote: »

??

and, perhaps McShane should have dealt with the dipping ball , by planting it in row Z , before it even got to Henry - mistakes , errors, fouling , such is football , but it was 5 years and we all must move on

gosplan

the_monkey wrote: »

It's not as bad as that disgracefull night in Stamford Bridge in May 2009 ...

Even though Chelsea got revenge, it built the lie that Barça became,
6 trophies that year - 3 of them immediately null and void by that disgrace.

As much as I tend to dislike Chelsea, that match was utter robbery and the CL, FIFA World Club Cup and Supercup followed.

I'm sure there's been worse but I can't remember a team being more hard done by in terms of decisions.

Shanotheslayer

iDave wrote: »

I remember walking back to my hotel, a few French lads saw our jerseys, came over and started apologising and saying how embarrassed they were for winning that way.

Fair play to those French lads, I and I'd guess 90% of Ireland supporters wouldn't give a fck.

This thread reminded me of Gary Neville talking about the 'will to win' and that it's the officials fault and not the players etc.

Fr Tod Umptious

Macavity. wrote: »

This was the incident that resulted in one of the most humiliating moments in Irish football - Delaney requesting we be allowed go to South Africa as the 33rd team.
]

I think people unfairly use the 33rd team thing as a stick to beat Delaney.

There is no way he seriously went to Blatter looking to get Ireland included.

I'm sure any mention of it from the FAI was toung in cheek.

But that did not stop Blatter using it to deflect attention from himself.
Remember he was under serious pressure after the incident for his total and utter dismissal of any sort of reforms regarding technology or changes to the way the game was officiated.

Delaney may have his faults but there is no way he seriously made that request to Blatter

CSF

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think people unfairly use the 33rd team thing as a stick to beat Delaney.

There is no way he seriously went to Blatter looking to get Ireland included.

I'm sure any mention of it from the FAI was toung in cheek.

But that did not stop Blatter using it to deflect attention from himself.
Remember he was under serious pressure after the incident for his total and utter dismissal of any sort of reforms regarding technology or changes to the way the game was officiated.

Delaney may have his faults but there is no way he seriously made that request to Blatter

From everything I've read, Delaney genuinely made efforts for FIFA to facilitate us. Apparently, he was more adamant though for us to be given seeding for the following qualifiers as compensation.

Idbatterim

wasnt the 2010 play off, when they decided to even seed the play offs? Some teams, Ireland included, could do an amazing job to finish second in a group, others like France, could have performed poorly (given their resources, population etc) finish second and they were given another leg up? Its disgraceful!

I know this seeding benefited Ireland for the 2012 play offs, doesnt make it right. There is no way the play offs should be seeded... I am sure they wont be come euro 2016, why bother, non of the big nations should be finishing 3rd, so no need...

Macavity.

Idbatterim wrote: »

wasnt the 2010 play off, when they decided to even seed the play offs? Some teams, Ireland included, could do an amazing job to finish second in a group, others like France, could have performed poorly (given their resources, population etc) finish second and they were given another leg up? Its disgraceful!

To me, the resources/population of the country is irrelevant. I want the best teams from each continent playing in the World Cup and seeding during all stages of qualification facilitates this. If the weaker teams deserve a place then they will beat the seeded team, if not, then they just weren't good enough.

noodler

Macavity. wrote: »

To me, the resources/population of the country is irrelevant. I want the best teams from each continent playing in the World Cup and seeding during all stages of qualification facilitates this. If the weaker teams deserve a place then they will beat the seeded team, if not, then they just weren't good enough.

Sport can't be irrelevant to you though surely?

Seeds in play offs are very unsporting and stack the odds further in the favour fo the seeded teams.

Macavity.

noodler wrote: »

Seeds in play offs are very unsporting and stack the odds further in the favour fo the seeded teams.

They make sure the best teams qualify. What would be unsporting is if four of the best teams were drawn among each other meaning two would be knocked out, while two weaker teams qualified instead.

ConstantJoe

Macavity. wrote: »

They make sure the best teams qualify. What would be unsporting is if four of the best teams were drawn among each other meaning two would be knocked out, while two weaker teams qualified instead.

They're hardly the best teams if they struggle in their group though? If they don't do well enough to be one of the best 4 2nd placed teams, well, then they're not one of the best 4 2nd placed teams. So they shouldn't be seeded.

Fr Tod Umptious

ConstantJoe wrote: »

They're hardly the best teams if they struggle in their group though? If they don't do well enough to be one of the best 4 2nd placed teams, well, then they're not one of the best 4 2nd placed teams. So they shouldn't be seeded.

I tend to agree with that.
All the teams making the playoff stage are at the same level i.e. they all came second in their group, so there should be no further need to grade them beyond that, especially when it's a very small number of teams involved

roanoke

Idbatterim wrote: »

wasnt the 2010 play off, when they decided to even seed the play offs? Some teams, Ireland included, could do an amazing job to finish second in a group, others like France, could have performed poorly (given their resources, population etc) finish second and they were given another leg up? Its disgraceful!

I believe that's all these play-offs are at their essence. They're basically a second chance for under-performing heavy-weights to get their act together at the last moment and qualify (much to the delight of FIFA).

Same with the FIFA rankings, expanded group sizes, increased number of one-match suspensions, double-game match-weeks and all the other major changes that have occurred in the WC qualification process since the mid-'90s All of these changes favor countries with deep squads and the ability to stay ahead if given pole-position.

Macavity.

ConstantJoe wrote: »

They're hardly the best teams if they struggle in their group though?

I meant "best" relative to the other play-off teams.

If they don't do well enough to be one of the best 4 2nd placed teams, well, then they're not one of the best 4 2nd placed teams. So they shouldn't be seeded.

The four best (in terms of points) out of the 2nd placed teams would also be a fair way of seeding. A lot of people seem to want an open draw out of the eight teams which I just think is ridiculous.

Idbatterim

hang on! under the old system of 1st places qualifies outright and the 2nd place had a play off. A "heavy weight" could have made a relative balls of qualification and finished second, a whole host of smaller teams could have done an amazing job to finish in second and they should then purely on a ranking basis, have the odds stacked against them again? No way... I understand exactly why it is done, and in the group stage I say fair enough, that is it though...

ConstantJoe

Macavity. wrote: »

I meant "best" relative to the other play-off teams.



The four best (in terms of points) out of the 2nd placed teams would also be a fair way of seeding. A lot of people seem to want an open draw out of the eight teams which I just think is ridiculous.

Oh I'd agree with you there. Seeding it in terms of points seems fair to me, since it means that only a team's performance in that campaign in their group matters in the seedings. It also has the added advantage that those final meaningless games for already guaranteed 2nd placed teams take on a bit more meaning. I'd argue that an open draw is fairer than seeding based on the FIFA rankings though.

If the seeding was based on points in the group in 2010, then France would've still been seeded and Ireland would've still been unseeded. Its only Ukraine really that can feel hard done by UEFA. But if I recall correctly it wasn't that the playoffs were seeded that annoyed a lot of people, it was that UEFA announced towards the end of the group stages that the playoffs would be seeded, not at the start. At a stage where, coincidentally, France and Portugal were really struggling in their groups.

noodler

Macavity. wrote: »

They make sure the best teams qualify. What would be unsporting is if four of the best teams were drawn among each other meaning two would be knocked out, while two weaker teams qualified instead.

The groups are supposed to make sure the best teams qualify.

The groups are seeded.

Seeding twice is incredibly unsporting.

TheDoc

Idbatterim wrote: »

just came across the below on facebook. An absolute disgrace that still p*sses me off to this day.

https://www.facebook.com/thisisiradio/photos/a.188173064577111.49310.179573255437092/801182336609511/?type=1&comment_id=801254393268972&notif_t=like

The Irish players should simply have walked off the pitch, they werent going to equalise with the few seconds left, I would only advocate that action, because of that despicable, scum bag act... That was way below the belt!

refusing to finish out that match, may have helped our cause at a replay or some remedy, it may have blown the issue up big enough, that the powers that be were forced to do something...

It was reactions like this from fans, media and most importantly John Delaney, made me full utterly embarrassed to be an irish fan and why I've been detracted from really supporting the team in the last few years, feeling uncomfortable that I'd be viewed upon like that.

It was as if it was the first poor refereeing decision to ever happen in football.

But my initial reaction was the same as it is now, handball regardless, we totally failed to deal with a situation that youd expect dealt with at professional level, by Shay Given and the defender, who if I remember was john O'Shea.

My roaring wasn't at the handball, but at the absolute novice defending that took place.

I actually do find it mind boggling that people still go on about it.

Borat_Sagdiyev

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think people unfairly use the 33rd team thing as a stick to beat Delaney.

There is no way he seriously went to Blatter looking to get Ireland included.

I'm sure any mention of it from the FAI was toung in cheek.

But that did not stop Blatter using it to deflect attention from himself.
Remember he was under serious pressure after the incident for his total and utter dismissal of any sort of reforms regarding technology or changes to the way the game was officiated.

Delaney may have his faults but there is no way he seriously made that request to Blatter

Yep, I remember that clearly. He was 100% dead set against it, then a "Big Boy" team were involved in an incident during that world cup and he did a 180 turn immediately. In other words, if something negative happens to a small team, the attitude will be "who cares?", changes will only happen if incidents involving perceived "bigger" teams come along.

The incident was Lampard's shot against Germany that landed a foot behind the line but spun out and the ref didn't award a goal. As far as I'm aware, the proposal of the official behind the goals was put forward after this.