McDonalds; another planning application

Taltos

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

My understanding on that is not that there is lack of business there but the extortionate rents

Have heard the same thing. Beggars belief at the moment, surely a slightly less that requested rent is better than a building sitting idle. Just silliness.

Harry Bosch

recedite wrote: »

So, just to be clear, the proposal to include the "no fry zone" was passed, and now it is included in the draft plan. When the draft plan becomes the plan, the no fry zone will be in it, unless they are forced to remove it.

Who is likely to object to the "no fry zone" during the consultation period? Burger King? I'm thinking they would need a helluva lot of influence to overturn it at this stage.
Not only McDonalds, but all the schools, and a large number of residents want the "no more fast food joints" clause retained.

The officials at WCC are opposed to it. The former and disgraced county manager, Eddie Sheehy, wrote a report opposing it. They will bring pressure to bear on councillors, which is not to be underestimated.

Councillors, though, are the only ones with a vote on the final plan. Each element of the plan, including both the suggested amendments from them and whatever m back from the public consultation, will be voted on by the 32 councillors, and any that does not get a majority of votes cast will not be in the County Development Plan as adopted.

So yes, there is scope for counter-lobbying by such as Burger King, KFC, or even some guy who is thinking of starting a chipper. Which is why parents and schools across Wicklow should start getting their act together NOW to lobby their local councillors to support the No Fry Zone proposal.

Harry Bosch

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Have heard that too - you'd think they'd have come down in the years of being freaking empty!

I would have Charlesland as the best location for McDs in Greystones, if there was a large enough site for them. A large local population (greater than Redford and Rathdown I think) and on a main road for ease of access to them; better than the lidl location in that respect imo. Accessible, easily, for most of Greystones, and more accessible for Kilkoole as well.

At the same time though, a lot of kids around and a school to be built there, so I would assume it would get similar complaints from the people not happy with the current location.

Discussing alternate locations is surely a bit pointless now, no?

recedite

Harry Bosch wrote: »

The officials at WCC are opposed to it. The former and disgraced county manager, Eddie Sheehy, wrote a report opposing it.

But that was at a time when McDonalds were opposed to it.
Now that McDonalds have their PP in the bag, it will suit them and their lobbyists to shut the door behind them. At least as far as the Blacklion LAP is concerned. If we are talking about a wider ban that would affect all of Wicklow, it would be a different story of course.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

But that was at a time when McDonalds were opposed to it.
Now that McDonalds have their PP in the bag, it will suit them and their lobbyists to shut the door behind them. At least as far as the Blacklion LAP is concerned. If we are talking about a wider ban that would affect all of Wicklow, it would be a different story of course.

It is a wider plan for the whole county

recedite

Well, the devil will be in the detail, as always.
When they see fit to release it to the public, we can see what's what.

Mitch Connor

Harry Bosch wrote: »

Discussing alternate locations is surely a bit pointless now, no?

Yes, but you could say discussing anything at all about it on boards.ie is pointless anyway.

Was just engaging in the discussion. I have no objection to McDs going where it looks to be going. I just reckon Charlesland would be have been a better location in most respects.

legrand

Irish Times today...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/planning-for-mcdonald-s-in-greystones-challenged-by-school-1.2440847

2011

Email sent to parents of Temple Carrig students today:

23rd November 2015

Dear Parents/Guardians,

Temple Carrig School was today granted leave by the High Court to issue judicial review proceedings against An Bord Pleanala concerning the decision to grant planning permission for a fast food restaurant less than 30 metres from the school grounds.

The Board of Management has taken this step in light of its responsibilities under the Education Act to provide for the students of the school and on the basis of strong legal advice that the decision by An Bord Pleanala to grant permission for the proposed development was legally flawed.

Pending the outcome of the proceedings the Board of Management will be issuing no further public comment on the matter, but I can assure parents that the money raised by the voluntary contribution is ring fenced strictly for educational purposes and will not be used to meet any legal expenses.

Thank you, as ever, for all your support,

Alan Cox
Principal

Charlie-Bravo

Interesting development.

I'm wondering how this is possible money-wise, as it is a small school at present and money available would be limited. Anyone with insight on this is welcome to PM me!

Would this not be in the interest of the Department of Education for the wider interests of schools, not just the three bedside it, and could be behind funding it (pure speculation with no information to establish fact)? Landmark case coming up me thinks!

recedite

It looks like they have tapped into some significant source of money alright.

The crux of the argument according to the Irish Times article there is that ABP "erred in law in failing to have regard to the guidelines as a freestanding set of policies, notwithstanding that they were not specifically adopted in the Wicklow local area plan".
It will be interesting to see the same arguments that were thrashed out in this thread ages ago, being used in a court.

Annasopra

Wasnt expecting that really - I presume there will be local fundraising but where else would the funds come from. I mean if you read reports of the Nov 9th meeting a case cost could be substantially large.

So now it gets all technical and the no fry zone does come into play

This won't be resolved now for a good few years and will become a social media saga.

Cerco

Unless the courts put a stay on the approval then I expect McD's can still go ahead since they have been granted approval.

Annasopra

Cerco wrote: »

Unless the courts put a stay on the approval then I expect McD's can still go ahead since they have been granted approval.

I would presume Templecarrig legal people will apply for a stay

recedite

Maybe there is some church money involved too. When the CoI built East Glendalough school in Wicklow town it cost them a lot of money, but they have gained control of Templecarrig without paying even a cent towards building or site costs.
If you have control of a multi-million euro asset you will want to protect it, even if you got it for nothing.

loyatemu

they're the patrons - they run the school but I don't think they own the building or the site. it's not worth millions to the COI, it's not as if they could sell it and build apartments there.

recedite

I didn't say they own it, I said they have control of it. If they can give priority admission to the new school on the basis of "a letter of active parish affiliation", then I suppose the membership and therefore the financial health of "the parish" (and any neighbouring parishes also listed for priority access) is pretty much guaranteed into the future.

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

I didn't say they own it, I said they have control of it. If they can give priority admission to the new school on the basis of "a letter of active parish affiliation", then I suppose the membership and therefore the financial health of "the parish" (and any neighbouring parishes also listed for priority access) is pretty much guaranteed into the future.

Are we still on topic?

Annasopra

FirstIn wrote: »

Are we still on topic?

Maybe not. But then you could report the post rather than backseat moderate.

Cerco

Anybody know if McDonalds is a notice party to the judicial review or is it simply between Templecarrig and An Bord Pleanala?

greig

Well done Lidl. A great decision. I'm sure more info will follow when it's all official.

greig

Well done Lidl, a great decision.

Charlie-Bravo

Care to enlighten us?

greig

Sunday business post article. Lidl have decided against selling to mcdonalds and will be building a new concept store similar to the one they opened in Gorey in October.

Annasopra

https://www.businesspost.ie/mcdonalds-restaurant-near-greystones-school-will-not-proceed/

Charlie-Bravo

I was just reading it on another website now. That's also interesting. What is needed is a revised planning and some work to proceed on a completely different development to ensure the old permission expires. No matter what, in its present form, MacDonald's will be able to build the store if, a) the judicial review doesn't proceed or is found in favour of the permission, and Lidl still cede that land to MacDonald's!

Annasopra

astrofluff wrote: »

I was just reading it on another website now. That's also interesting. What is needed is a revised planning and some work to proceed on a completely different development to ensure the old permission expires. No matter what, in its present form, MacDonald's will be able to build the store if, a) the judicial review doesn't proceed or is found in favour of the permission, and Lidl still cede that land to MacDonald's!

I assume the planning permission to McDs was conditional on Lidl ceding the land and now they are not ceding therefore the PP is no longer valid

recedite

Yes, but the point astrofluff makes is that if the judicial review does not proceed, and subsequently Lidl change their mind about selling the site to Mc Donalds, then McDs can build away.
Going ahead with the judicial review if Lidl don't sell could be a very expensive waste of money. So the difficult question for Templecarrig is whether they believe Lidl will really go ahead with their superstore on the site.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

Yes, but the point astrofluff makes is that if the judicial review does not proceed, and subsequently Lidl change their mind about selling the site to Mc Donalds, then McDs can build away.
Going ahead with the judicial review if Lidl don't sell could be a very expensive waste of money. So the difficult question for Templecarrig is whether they believe Lidl will really go ahead with their superstore on the site.

Yes but if the PP is conditional on lidl ceding the land then if Lidl write to WCC to say they are not then the PP is invalid. Lidl could change its mind subsequently but then A) it would be a massive PR own goal and in that case McDs would have to restart planning all over again.

Harry Bosch

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes but if the PP is conditional on lidl ceding the land then if Lidl write to WCC to say they are not then the PP is invalid. Lidl could change its mind subsequently but then A) it would be a massive PR own goal and in that case McDs would have to restart planning all over again.

The statement issued by Lidl is pretty clear. They are already in discussions with WCC about their superstore, and building the superstore will rule out a McDonalds on the site, or any other use.

On past showing, WCC will give them permission.

In which case, several scenarios are possible. McD could sue Lidl. McD could object to Lidl's proposal, and appeal it to Bord Pleanala. But that would mean burning its bridges entirely with Lidl, nationwide.

And so on.

My own view is, WCC will grant, and McD will decide the best course is to retire from the fray. Which would be the correct decision, for strategic reasons.