Minimum Wage

Gringo180

How is the minimum wage still only a measley 8.65 per hour in Ireland, if you work a 40 hour week your take home is 346 before any taxes or USC is deducted. Am I the only one who thinks the minimum wage should be at least put up to 10 or 11 euro per hour as the cost of living has gone up since the introduction of this rate in 2011. How can anybody get by on such a low income?

hmmm

The problem is that if you increase the minimum wage, it becomes harder for employers to afford to take on junior or inexperienced employees. Kids fresh out of school need to get a break into the workplace, and no-one is going to take them on at 11 euros an hour.

It might sound callous also, but if you're on minimum wage you need to be looking to upskill or move on to a higher paying job - it will never be a place to, for example, raise a family on (unless we jack up the minimum wage, in which case a lot of people will lose their jobs/not get a job in the first place).

What I think does need to happen is that people should never be in a position where staying on the dole is financially better than working on the minimum wage.

jank

Minimum wage in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe. Only 4% of the working population are on the minimum wage.

Also, someone on the minimum wage pays no PRSI and no income tax. They pay a bit of USC which amounts to 2.9% of total salary, so they pay feck all tax.

The vast vast majority of people do not stay on the minimum wage for long extended periods of time as they get better paid jobs over time with new education, skills and experience.

macraignil

jank wrote: »

Minimum wage in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe. Only 4% of the working population are on the minimum wage.

Also, someone on the minimum wage pays no PRSI and no income tax. They pay a bit of USC which amounts to 2.9% of total salary, so they pay feck all tax.

The vast vast majority of people do not stay on the minimum wage for long extended periods of time as they get better paid jobs over time with new education, skills and experience.

I would like to know where you got this 4% figure. From my experience this is not the case and better paid jobs have not been readily available here since the economic colapse in this country. I know numerous hard working people who are stuck long term on minimum wage and this is paid for jobs that could not be described as easy. I realise direct taxation on the minimum wage is not high but the net wage is still not enough to live here long term with the cost of living in this country. Indirect taxation still takes a good proportion of the wage which must be spent here just to survive.

It would be nice if minimum wage was higher but I think it has been set at a level that allows those working on minimum wage to scrape enough together to buy a one way ticket out of this country. This suits the FFail and FG parties that control politics here as they are appealing to the older portion of the electorate who want to see reduction in the unemployment figures ahead of any sort of quality of life for those not fortunate enough to have the education and experience to demand higher pay.

BoJack Horseman

It is true that 4% of people are on the minimum wage.

However if someone is on about €10 pH, their net pay is very close to the minimum...... With the €8.65 ph worker paying less tax.

I'd be interested to know the proportion of The workforce earn €10ph or less...... it will be higher than 4%.... For what is essentially still the minimum wage.


Example....

Min wage x 40hrs x 52 weeks = €332 net pay p/w
€10ph x same hrs/weeks = €355 net pay.
€23 per week difference.

A min wage worker pays €702 per year in income tax.
Raise their pay to €10ph and the annual income tax bill trebles to €2293 per year!

There is the minimum wage & far more workers on practically the same, despite appearances otherwise.

jank

I remember the 4% figure from 2011 when FG restored the wage to the previous level that was reduced under FF.

If you work in a low or non skilled sector you will of course be around people in similar circumstances. Doesn't mean the figures are not true.

Rightwing

The 4% figure seems far too low to me. The figures may be skewed in that someone on €8.90 may not be deemed to be on the minimum wage, but they are well below the minimum living wage.

The problem is costs, these need to be kept down.

golfwallah

macraignil wrote: »

I would like to know where you got this 4% figure. From my experience this is not the case and better paid jobs have not been readily available here since the economic colapse in this country. I know numerous hard working people who are stuck long term on minimum wage and this is paid for jobs that could not be described as easy. I realise direct taxation on the minimum wage is not high but the net wage is still not enough to live here long term with the cost of living in this country. Indirect taxation still takes a good proportion of the wage which must be spent here just to survive.

It would be nice if minimum wage was higher but I think it has been set at a level that allows those working on minimum wage to scrape enough together to buy a one way ticket out of this country. This suits the FFail and FG parties that control politics here as they are appealing to the older portion of the electorate who want to see reduction in the unemployment figures ahead of any sort of quality of life for those not fortunate enough to have the education and experience to demand higher pay.

According to Finfacts, in 2005/6,

ESRI estimate that 5.2% (or c. 70,500) of those employed in private sector non-agricultural firms are earning the minimum wage.

These are the latest figures I could find with a quick search on Google and, quite likely, the percentage may have increased since the economic downturn kicked in.

Quite how you have concluded that, whatever this percentage is, it’s all part of a massive FF / FG plot to appeal to older voters and keep low paid workers in a poor quality of life is beyond me. Where are your figures to back up this massive leap of cause and effect about 2 of the established political parties and their support by older voters? Seems like just opinion posing as fact to me!

Let’s look at a few published facts first:
• In the 2011 general election, FF got 17.4% of the popular vote and FG got 36.1%, i.e. 53.5% between them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2011
• In the October MRBI poll, FF had slipped to 16% and FG to 19%, i.e. a combined 35%: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-level-with-fine-gael-opinion-poll-shows-1.1956315
• The Sunday Independent-Millward Brown poll of 2nd November estimated party support as FF 20% and FG 22%. i.e. a combined 42%: http://adriankavanaghelections.org/2014/11/01/their-day-has-come-sinn-feins-surge-constituency-level-analysis-of-the-sunday-independent-millward-brown-opinion-poll-2nd-november-2014/
• A quick look at the demographics for Ireland on the CSO site shows that your generalisations about the older segment of the population just don’t stack up either, see extract from CSO site attached:

macraignil

Thanks for finding the figure of 5.2% from 2005/2006. I agree the percentage is quite likely to have increased since then and this helps prove my point that 4% is a ridiculously low figure to use. As posted here also those on slightly higher wage would not be included and because of the tax system still be relatively low paid for the cost of living here. Also there are people in jobs that do not offer full time hours and even though the hourly rate might be higher, the wage per week could be lower than the full time minimum wage.

My opinion that it is older voters that keep the FFail/FG parties being elected is based on my own personal experience of younger adults generally having the common sense to move away from the dysfunctional economy we have created in this country. I think that 53.5% still voting for these parties after their economic model clearly failing so many young people proves how senile the electorate here have become. The increased vote for independent candidates has helped disguise the continued dominance of FFail/FG without solving the problem of offering an actual choice when it comes to electing who will be in power in this country.

Since 2008 we have been exporting well over 50,000 people a year.

http://emn.ie/emn/statistics

golfwallah

macraignil wrote: »

Thanks for finding the figure of 5.2% from 2005/2006. I agree the percentage is quite likely to have increased since then and this helps prove my point that 4% is a ridiculously low figure to use. As posted here also those on slightly higher wage would not be included and because of the tax system still be relatively low paid for the cost of living here. Also there are people in jobs that do not offer full time hours and even though the hourly rate might be higher, the wage per week could be lower than the full time minimum wage.

My opinion that it is older voters that keep the FFail/FG parties being elected is based on my own personal experience of younger adults generally having the common sense to move away from the dysfunctional economy we have created in this country. I think that 53.5% still voting for these parties after their economic model clearly failing so many young people proves how senile the electorate here have become. The increased vote for independent candidates has helped disguise the continued dominance of FFail/FG without solving the problem of offering an actual choice when it comes to electing who will be in power in this country.

Since 2008 we have been exporting well over 50,000 people a year.

http://emn.ie/emn/statistics

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make other than blaming the older section of our population for the misfortunes of those on minimum wage and those who have emigrated since 2008.

Certainly many people (myself included) would feel that there is a lot wrong with our political-economic system and there is scope for much improvement. I would agree with your sentiment that “we”(the majority) must bear responsibility for electing those in power but there are plenty of examples of dysfunctional political economies around the world to demonstrate that we are not quite as bad as you are making out. I would not agree either with your simplistic, ageist conclusion that the older generation is responsible for the economic woes we are facing

As a parent myself and as one who emigrated and returned to Ireland, I have yet to come across the kind of older people you are talking about – i.e. those who are happy to see lots of people on minimum wage and/or emigrating, as long as they themselves are all right. That said, it is preferable to have the opportunity to work even for minimum wage than see those jobs disappearing because they are priced out of the market. Likewise, emigrating is not always a bad thing and, even though it can be painful, it offers the opportunities for people to up-skill, gain experience and make themselves more marketable.

In a democracy citizens have responsibilities as well as rights. Those responsibilities include getting involved with your community, locally or nationally, to try to make things better. It’s simply not enough to sit on the fence and blame others!

Sure, there are no simple answers, even if we can all see better ways of doing things than those chosen by people currently in power. The snag is that it takes involvement and hard work over a long period of time as well as the stomach to engage with vested interests, compromise, etc.

There’s an old adage that, at the end of the day, we get the government we deserve and deserve the government we get. And Plato is reputed to have said that “those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber”.

macraignil

Yes I do blame the older generation in Ireland for a stagnant political system that has offered no viable government choice to young people.

Irish general elections percentage of seats for FF and FG

1987 48.8 +30.1
1989 46.4 +33.1
1992 40.9 +27.1
1997 46.4 +32.5
2002 48.8 +18.7
2007 46.6 +30.9

Difference between FF and FG? Something to do with the civil war?
Stagnant political system....Stagnant economy....rubbish pay for most jobs for cost of living....forced mass emigration.

jank

People on the minimum wage? 4.9% according to this.
http://www.publicpolicy.ie/the-minimum-wage-in-ireland/
I do remember the 4% figure being banded about a few years ago as well.

Seeing as no one has offered any evidence to the contract apart from anecdotal experience that just perpetuates the usual class warfare, we can take it that the figure is between 4-6%.

People say we have exported 50,000 'people' but we have also imported them as well (about 25k a year on average and rising), mainly from eastern Europe. Many of these take up jobs on the minimum wage that many native Irish see as beneath them. Also, the vast majority of the Irish people in OZ and Canada head home, the stats prove that. Jumping on a plane on a WHV is not emigration, its an extended holiday. I would only classify a person as an emigrant or ex-pat if they on a PR visa or sponsored with family in tow.

Permabear

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Godge

Permabear wrote: »

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Not necessarily, the automation increases productivity and frees up human resources for more advanced jobs.

The problem is that you need an education system that facilitates this.

However, if it works, higher living standards ensue.

jank

Godge wrote: »

Not necessarily, the automation increases productivity and frees up human resources for more advanced jobs.

The problem is that you need an education system that facilitates this.

However, if it works, higher living standards ensue.

Agreed. However, education needs some effort as well on part of the self. If people drop out of school and live off the state its just another poverty trap. The easy high paid non skilled jobs are becoming more infrequent as most of this work is going abroad. The only places left that have high wages for minimum education and effort exists in Union dominated sectors like the Public Sector and Semi State transport companies. Of course the rest of society including those on the Minimum wage in the private sector picks up the tap. All in the name of 'social' partnership :rolleyes:

Godge

jank wrote: »

Agreed. However, education needs some effort as well on part of the self. If people drop out of school and live off the state its just another poverty trap. The easy high paid non skilled jobs are becoming more infrequent as most of this work is going abroad. The only places left that have high wages for minimum education and effort exists in Union dominated sectors like the Public Sector and Semi State transport companies. Of course the rest of society including those on the Minimum wage in the private sector picks up the tap. All in the name of 'social' partnership :rolleyes:

That does not make sense.

All studies show that the average level of education in the public sector is higher than the average level of education in the private sector.

Permabear

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Jim2007

Gringo180 wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks the minimum wage should be at least put up to 10 or 11 euro per hour as the cost of living has gone up since the introduction of this rate in 2011. How can anybody get by on such a low income?

Well all I can tell you is that here in Switzerland we have no minimum wage. And when one was proposed last year it was rejected by 76% of the voting public!

golfwallah

macraignil wrote: »

Yes I do blame the older generation in Ireland for a stagnant political system that has offered no viable government choice to young people.

Irish general elections percentage of seats for FF and FG

1987 48.8 +30.1
1989 46.4 +33.1
1992 40.9 +27.1
1997 46.4 +32.5
2002 48.8 +18.7
2007 46.6 +30.9

Difference between FF and FG? Something to do with the civil war?
Stagnant political system....Stagnant economy....rubbish pay for most jobs for cost of living....forced mass emigration.

Blaming others - FF, FG, Labour, the PDs, your mother, father, uncles, aunts, the Catholic Church, the older generation in general, etc. will not fix any of the ills you have listed – nor will it help fix problems in your own life. Changing the way things work has to start with yourself – blaming is just an excuse for doing nothing.

And all the electoral statistics show is that these parties received a certain proportion of the vote – nothing else – the civil war happened over 90 years ago.

“You are responsible for your life. You can't keep blaming somebody else for your dysfunction. Life is really about moving on.” ― Oprah Winfrey

“We are taught you must blame your father, your sisters, your brothers, the school, the teachers - but never blame yourself. It's never your fault. But it's always your fault, because if you wanted to change you're the one who has got to change”. - Katharine Hepburn

“Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get the blame. - Laurence J. Peter (author of “The Peter Principle”)

robp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Surely higher wages for teachers drives up demand for teaching position gradually corralling more intelligent people to the profession? If Irish speaking and religious schools are hindering educational quality why are both achieving the highest student performance and with Catholic schools the same can be seen abroad. Although undesirable, skill gaps and skill oversupplies are natural issues in the labour market- and epsecially in such a tiny country.

The reality for those currently in the education system is not so bleak. In fact Ireland is doing pretty well.

The performance of Irish 15-year-olds in maths, reading and science is significantly above average compared to other developed countries, according to a report published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1203/490592-oecd/

chopper6

jank wrote: »

The only places left that have high wages for minimum education and effort exists in Union dominated sectors like the Public Sector

Yeah?

Any positions in my place require a 2.1 degree minimum plus relevant work experience and start on 19k a year.



You should apply for a job in the Public Sector and see how you get on.

macraignil

golfwallah wrote: »

Blaming others - FF, FG, Labour, the PDs, your mother, father, uncles, aunts, the Catholic Church, the older generation in general, etc. will not fix any of the ills you have listed – nor will it help fix problems in your own life. Changing the way things work has to start with yourself – blaming is just an excuse for doing nothing.

And all the electoral statistics show is that these parties received a certain proportion of the vote – nothing else – the civil war happened over 90 years ago.

“You are responsible for your life. You can't keep blaming somebody else for your dysfunction. Life is really about moving on.” ― Oprah Winfrey

“We are taught you must blame your father, your sisters, your brothers, the school, the teachers - but never blame yourself. It's never your fault. But it's always your fault, because if you wanted to change you're the one who has got to change”. - Katharine Hepburn

“Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get the blame. - Laurence J. Peter (author of “The Peter Principle”)

I am not sure why you are personalising this discusion on minimum wage. I do not think I have a major dysfunction in my life and I am not on minimum wage. I have worked for minimum wage in the past and that is why I know it is not enough to live in Ireland long term.

The figures that I posted on percentage of seats won in elections by two parties with the same centre right position on the political spectrum ilustrate my point that the electorate here are not offered a real choice as to who is in government. To add a quotation by Gerry Adams Voting for FFail versus FG is like voting for twiddle D versus twiddle Dumb. No other party in recent Irish history has shown any sign of being able to form a government without involvment of one of these parties that as far as I can see only are really different in what side they were on in the civil war that was 90 years ago.

I also find it unfair as posted above to describe Irish people who do not take up low paid work as simply seeing certain jobs as beneath them when they need to look at getting higher paid work simply to meet the cost of living here. It is true that some migrants to this country are happier to take these lower paid jobs as they do not have to cope with the costs associated with living here long term. Also they can improve their english language skills here while still being closer to their home before going somewhere else further away to earn better pay or live somewhere where the cost of living has not been allowed to spiral out of control.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

golfwallah

macraignil wrote: »

I am not sure why you are personalising this discusion on minimum wage. I do not think I have a major dysfunction in my life and I am not on minimum wage. I have worked for minimum wage in the past and that is why I know it is not enough to live in Ireland long term.

The figures that I posted on percentage of seats won in elections by two parties with the same centre right position on the political spectrum ilustrate my point that the electorate here are not offered a real choice as to who is in government. To add a quotation by Gerry Adams Voting for FFail versus FG is like voting for twiddle D versus twiddle Dumb. No other party in recent Irish history has shown any sign of being able to form a government without involvment of one of these parties that as far as I can see only are really different in what side they were on in the civil war that was 90 years ago.

I also find it unfair as posted above to describe Irish people who do not take up low paid work as simply seeing certain jobs as beneath them when they need to look at getting higher paid work simply to meet the cost of living here. It is true that some migrants to this country are happier to take these lower paid jobs as they do not have to cope with the costs associated with living here long term. Also they can improve their english language skills here while still being closer to their home before going somewhere else further away to earn better pay or live somewhere where the cost of living has not been allowed to spiral out of control.

Blaming older people for the present shortfalls in Ireland’s political economic situation is a personalised attack based on age discrimination. All I am asking is that you think the situation through carefully before launching an attack, such as you did on “the older generation”. I note from the Hayes Solicitors site that:

Interestingly, an employee is generally considered to be “older” from the age of 50 although I note that Age Concern in England found that some employers define an older worker as a woman over 35 and a man over 42.

Anti-discriminatory legislation (mainly in employment law) at EU and national levels in the EU, clearly demonstrate that most people in the EU disapprove of discrimination, based on religion, ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation, disability, health, etc.

I have no problem with people holding and promulgating different views based on issues, policies, behaviours, etc. but personalised attacks targeted at groups in society, based on who they are, are not acceptable, IMHO, and will only serve to divide people, promote hatred, etc.

If you are not happy about an issue, attack the ball – not the man, or better still demonstrate in a positive way, how we might move from our current situation to a better one and how to bring enough people along with your proposals to make them acceptable. That is the accepted way of doing things in a democratic society – not attacking groups based on age, sex, religion, ethnicity or anything else.

We have had enough examples of where this can lead not too long ago in Europe and what it is being done right now by extremist groups such as ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban, etc.!

Jim2007

macraignil wrote: »

Yes I do blame the older generation in Ireland for a stagnant political system that has offered no viable government choice to young people.

What exactly does that mean? What solutions would you expect to see implemented? All across Europe governments are seeking an answer to this question:



The idea that if we only elected a different government everything be OK it total nonsense! No matter who you elect there is no way they will be able to produce a result that is the exact opposite to what the rest of Europe does.

Rather than blaming others for the state of the nation, lets us hear exactly how you would go about solving the problems?

Jim2007

macraignil wrote: »

I also find it unfair as posted above to describe Irish people who do not take up low paid work as simply seeing certain jobs as beneath them when they need to look at getting higher paid work simply to meet the cost of living here.

There is a point at which people should be required to take up whatever jobs are going. If the income is not enough then it could be supplemented with some kind of welfare payment. This is how it is done in other countries, so I don't see why it can not be done here either...

chopper6

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is a point at which people should be required to take up whatever jobs are going. If the income is not enough then it could be supplemented with some kind of welfare payment. This is how it is done in other countries, so I don't see why it can not be done here either...

Agreed. If the dole is enough to live on long-term then it's too high.

It's a disgrace that some able-bodied people have languished n teh dole for years,refusing to take the "crap jobs" and them blaming the foreigners for taking "our" jobs.

The welfare state only begets other wasters and people are getting lazier with the "you'd be better off on the dole" a common cry.

macraignil

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is a point at which people should be required to take up whatever jobs are going. If the income is not enough then it could be supplemented with some kind of welfare payment. This is how it is done in other countries, so I don't see why it can not be done here either...

I agree this would be a good idea.

Another one that I was considering was wheather the existing community employment scheme in Ireland could be widened so that everone on unemployment benefit for longer than a few months be required to develop their own community employment. They could by doing this improve their level of experience in their own chosen area of employment and do some work that would benefit themselves and the wider community.

By saying that I hold older generations as responsible for the political system here I am simply making the point that younger people under 18 can not vote for any party and therefore have less responsability for the dysfunctional political system here. Such a high proportion of the vote going to two parties that have very little different to offer in terms of policys does not help find any solutions. I heard a radio interview here a couple of years ago where members of either FG or FFail were asked what was the difference between the two parties and they struggled to answer. At least having some diffference in who is available to vote for would allow for more debate on finding genuine solutions.

I am not making a personalised attack on old people and I think there has been some confusion between stating an opinion and actual discrimination. My Grand Aunt in Dublin has said to me she would not allow people over 70 have a vote as they will not be around to suffer the consequences, but that is her opinion. Quoting definitions of old age from a solicitor and comparing stating an opinion to the actions of Boko Haram, Isis and the Taliban seems to me a bit paranoid. I am not suggesting any actions should be taken in Ireland similar to those of the extreemist groups mentioned above.

The table of youth unempoyment rates clearly shows that the countrys with the lowest overall unemployment also have low levels of youth unemployment. I think your suggestion of somehow subsidising employment might be the best answer throughout the EU where I think the high currency value related to other countrys worldwide has put European businesses at a serious disadvantage, particularly in more labour intensive industies that have been more important in countries away from the industrialised core area of the EU.

ciaranlong

There was a drive in the UK a few years back to try and make sure that working would always be more valuable than claiming welfare. Though I'm not sure how well they have acted on that since. I don't think that the issue has got the same degree of attention here, though I do remember that there was an ESRI paper that looked into the issue. I think that its conclusion was questioned by some people, and that the paper was eventually pulled altogether. Does anyone remember exactly what happened in that case?

golfwallah

I fully agree that there is little to separate FF & FG as regards general policy but just who is going to found the new political party that macraignil and Irish young voters looking for? Shane Ross, Lucinda Creighton, Declan Ganley, etc? The last big attempts were the setting up of the PDs, Greens, Libertas, etc. – and just look at how far they got!

With such a chequered and underwhelming history from new parties in Ireland, even with the vacuum created by the present shambolic FG-Labour coalition, it’s hardly surprising that politicians are reticent to set up yet another new one. Even Shane Ross doesn’t seem to have any clear ideas other that his “non-negotiable” pillars for a deal to become a junior coalition partner in some future coalition.

But the answer, I’m afraid lies with ourselves, the electorate. We seem quite content with voting in people who promise what we really know, deep down, they can’t possibly deliver. And, I don’t think it really matters what labels the political parties have or the age of the electorate. The missing ingredients are leadership (think of the difference between Chamberlain’s “safe pair of hands” and Churchill’s “cut and thrust” in 1940), clear policy objectives (as opposed to aspirations, like openness, transparency, eliminating cronyism, blaming your predecessors, etc.) and a working Dail structure that will support delivery of those objectives (e.g. election of separate pools of representatives to deliver on local and national issues, as mentioned by Ivan Yates recently on RTE, or splitting ministerial legislative and executive roles, as proposed by Eddie Hobbs).

For example, how can anything ever change as regards welfare or public service overspending, etc., when responsibility for those areas has been abdicated by FG for the sake of coalition to Labour’s Brendan Howlin, Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform? Can’t see Labour supporting moves to curtail welfare spending, such as the welfare caps in the UK and Netherlands, or significantly cutting the public service overspend! As for FG, they seem content to let house and rent prices rise yet again to unaffordable levels (the key ingedient to higher minimum wage demands).

The policy of the present coalition up to a year ago was to implement the policies set forth in the MOU signed by the previous FF / PD coalition with the Troika, implement minimal change and hope the “growth” will carry us through. And now that “we’re out of the bailout”, what a mess they have made of simple things like implementing a more sustainable water system!

I don’t really think it’s as simple as lowering the voting age or taking the vote away from the over 70’s – but maybe some new party might support policies such as these that are seemingly favoured by an earlier poster? Maybe we have to be at the precipice of disaster (wait, we were there with the banking and Euro crisis – and without protests on the streets) or more likely be in a disaster situation, before there is the will for any real change!

macraignil

golfwallah wrote: »

I fully agree that there is little to separate FF & FG as regards general policy but just who is going to found the new political party that macraignil and Irish young voters looking for? Shane Ross, Lucinda Creighton, Declan Ganley, etc? The last big attempts were the setting up of the PDs, Greens, Libertas, etc. – and just look at how far they got!

With such a chequered and underwhelming history from new parties in Ireland, even with the vacuum created by the present shambolic FG-Labour coalition, it’s hardly surprising that politicians are reticent to set up yet another new one. Even Shane Ross doesn’t seem to have any clear ideas other that his “non-negotiable” pillars for a deal to become a junior coalition partner in some future coalition.

But the answer, I’m afraid lies with ourselves, the electorate. We seem quite content with voting in people who promise what we really know, deep down, they can’t possibly deliver. And, I don’t think it really matters what labels the political parties have or the age of the electorate. The missing ingredients are leadership (think of the difference between Chamberlain’s “safe pair of hands” and Churchill’s “cut and thrust” in 1940), clear policy objectives (as opposed to aspirations, like openness, transparency, eliminating cronyism, blaming your predecessors, etc.) and a working Dail structure that will support delivery of those objectives (e.g. election of separate pools of representatives to deliver on local and national issues, as mentioned by Ivan Yates recently on RTE, or splitting ministerial legislative and executive roles, as proposed by Eddie Hobbs).

For example, how can anything ever change as regards welfare or public service overspending, etc., when responsibility for those areas has been abdicated by FG for the sake of coalition to Labour’s Brendan Howlin, Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform? Can’t see Labour supporting moves to curtail welfare spending, such as the welfare caps in the UK and Netherlands, or significantly cutting the public service overspend! As for FG, they seem content to let house and rent prices rise yet again to unaffordable levels (the key ingedient to higher minimum wage demands).

The policy of the present coalition up to a year ago was to implement the policies set forth in the MOU signed by the previous FF / PD coalition with the Troika, implement minimal change and hope the “growth” will carry us through. And now that “we’re out of the bailout”, what a mess they have made of simple things like implementing a more sustainable water system!

I don’t really think it’s as simple as lowering the voting age or taking the vote away from the over 70’s – but maybe some new party might support policies such as these that are seemingly favoured by an earlier poster? Maybe we have to be at the precipice of disaster (wait, we were there with the banking and Euro crisis – and without protests on the streets) or more likely be in a disaster situation, before there is the will for any real change!

I think you've given a good description of the current political mess that Ireland faces. Just to clarify my earlier posts, I am not in favour of lowering the voting age, or as my Grand aunt suggested a number of years back refusing the right to vote to over 70's. I agree these steps would not really help.

Permabear

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Godge

Permabear wrote: »

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Thanks I had been looking for that for some research I was doing.

jank

Permabear wrote: »

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What was controversial about it?

Permabear

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ciaranlong

@Permabear: Thanks for all the information about the ESRI paper. I remember now that there was all that controversy surrounding Richard Tol, and that he subsequently left the ESRI. Thanks for the link to the paper too. Hard to believe that all of that happened two years ago now.

macraignil

Permabear wrote: »

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It would also suggest that many jobs don't pay enough to cover the cost of having a family in this country.

noodler

Worth mentioning Tol was leaving the ESRI regardless and the revised paper seems fairly sound.

ciaranlong

noodler wrote: »

Worth mentioning Tol was leaving the ESRI regardless and the revised paper seems fairly sound.

@noodler: Thanks for the clarification on both of those points. I think I remember them being made at the time now I think of it.

Cookie_Monster

macraignil wrote: »

It would also suggest that many jobs don't pay enough to cover the cost of having a family in this country.

that's hardly relevant to what an employer decides to pay though. Excessive costs associated with children are a bigger factor than income for a given role.

macraignil

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's hardly relevant to what an employer decides to pay though. Excessive costs associated with children are a bigger factor than income for a given role.

This thread was started on the topic of minimum wage being low in proportion to the cost of living here. As other posts have mentioned slightly higher paid jobs because of the tax system here also leave people on a very low wage for the cost of living here. What an employer decides to pay is very relevant to somebody covering the costs involved in having a family.

My post was in reply to a post that highlighed a government report that found a very high percentage of familys would be better off on social welfare than working in Ireland. While that post uses this as an excuse to say welfare payments are too generous, I think the tax and welfare system should allow for someone to work and not be on lower income than someone just on welfare payments. The welfare payments are costed to cover the expenses associated with having a family while many employers do not make these calculations when deciding what to pay. They also do not calculate hours of work and rate of pay to fit in with the existing family income supplement.

The current family income supplement that can be applied for should fill the role of helping familys on low income. Reading the regulations and restrictions detailed on the citizens' information website however would indicate to me that this payment can not be relied on and low income families are still faced with a potential poverty trap if they take up low paid employment.

barneystinson

macraignil wrote: »

This thread was started on the topic of minimum wage being low in proportion to the cost of living here. As other posts have mentioned slightly higher paid jobs because of the tax system here also leave people on a very low wage for the cost of living here. What an employer decides to pay is very relevant to somebody covering the costs involved in having a family.

My post was in reply to a post that highlighed a government report that found a very high percentage of familys would be better off on social welfare than working in Ireland. While that post uses this as an excuse to say welfare payments are too generous, I think the tax and welfare system should allow for someone to work and not be on lower income than someone just on welfare payments.

There is a family income supplement that can be applied for that should fill this role. Reading the regulations and restrictions detailed on the citizens' information website however would indicate to me that this payment can not be relied on and low income families are still faced with a poverty trap if they take up low paid emplyment.

Just one problem there, Ireland's minimum wage isn't low; either in absolute terms where according to Eurostat we're 4th highest, or in relative terms after adjusting for cost of living where we're 5th (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/mobile/index.php)... riddle me that.

Oh, and I'd assumed the FIS is included in the calculation that suggests families might be better off on welfare, am I wrong in that assumption?

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

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It could suggest that, but it could also indicate a lack of well paying jobs (as mentioned above), high childcare costs, high transport costs or high taxes. My point is that many people can look at the same numbers and arrive at as many different conclusions.

To suggest that this simply means that welfare is too generous is an oversimplifaction.

al22

Higher wages means higher prices and gigher cost of living, not other way.
Ireland not the only country in the world, need to be competitive.

How about minimum wages in Portugal just 505 euro a month? Do they starving?

Minimum wages in China about 550 USD a month. Do they starving?
An average apartment in Bejing is about 1000 sq ft. Can be rented for about USD 600 a month. (From Chinese TV)

Students in Tokyo, Japan. Monthly rent a room on campus is USD 80. (NHK TV)

Ha ha

chopper6

I don't understand the argument that bringing up children is expensive and therefore you'd be better off not working.

I know from being a child that bringing up kids costs money so if you can't afford them don't breed them...contraceptives are freely available these days.

The state should not be rewarding people for reckless breeding.

macraignil

barneystinson wrote: »

Just one problem there, Ireland's minimum wage isn't low; either in absolute terms where according to Eurostat we're 4th highest, or in relative terms after adjusting for cost of living where we're 5th (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/mobile/index.php)... riddle me that.

Oh, and I'd assumed the FIS is included in the calculation that suggests families might be better off on welfare, am I wrong in that assumption?

Earlier posts in this thread have already stated that minimum wage here is one of the higher rates in the EU. The cost of living here is also high. I do not know what riddle you are talking about.

The Family Income Supplement may very well be included in the calculation that suggests families might be better off on social welfare. This would suggest to me that the Family Income Supplement needs to be improved.

ardmacha

macraignil wrote: »

The Family Income Supplement may very well be included in the calculation that suggests families might be better off on social welfare. This would suggest to me that the Family Income Supplement needs to be improved.

it seems to me that the way forward is to

• carefully examine the interactions of benefits and identify disincentive effects at various points
• boost Family Income Supplement type benefits where required to alleviate above
• restructure other welfare more on German lines, where benefits decline rather than increase, so that a person between jobs might receive quite decent benefit but one making a career on the dole would not

barneystinson

macraignil wrote: »

Earlier posts in this thread have already stated that minimum wage here is one of the higher rates in the EU. The cost of living here is also high. I do not know what riddle you are talking about..

Ok I'll try again so.

AFTER ADJUSTING FOR COST OF LIVING, our minimum wage is still 5th highest in Europe. So that means a person on minimum wage in Ireland has more disposable income than most of the rest of Europe. Our minimum wage workers have a better standard of living than their counterparts in Europe.

So the logical conclusion is that welfare must be too high, if minimum wage work isn't financially a better option.

macraignil

barneystinson wrote: »

Ok I'll try again so.

AFTER ADJUSTING FOR COST OF LIVING, our minimum wage is still 5th highest in Europe. So that means a person on minimum wage in Ireland has more disposable income than most of the rest of Europe. Our minimum wage workers have a better standard of living than their counterparts in Europe.

So the logical conclusion is that welfare must be too high, if minimum wage work isn't financially a better option.

Repeating the same thing does not seem to help. I'm still not sure what the riddle thing you were taliking about is. I have worked for minimum wage in Ireland and found I had very little disposable income. I also never felt that I had more disposable income than most of the rest of Europe.

I also would question your conclusion that a minimum wage rate in fifth place in Europe gives people here a better standard of living. I worked on low wages in Holland and found the better standard of public services allowed my disposable income go much further than is possible in Ireland.

I would also question your logic on welfare and to repeat myself again would think the report implies that the existing family income supplement is not sufficient. Your statement ignores the fact that the details of the report being discused were about family income. I never said that for a person not supporting a family that being on welfare was a better option.

Farmer Pudsey

macraignil wrote: »

It would also suggest that many jobs don't pay enough to cover the cost of having a family in this country.

An employer can only afford to pay what is viable. In one sense we have had a race to the bottom in a wage context in certain work sectors. Area's like contract cleaning, pub, shop and retail work. Delivery and Transport work etc etc. What is common with these is that they are all work that little training is needed for.

The biggest issue facing the state is finding Blue collor work especially for young males. If you fail at education as a young male there is little or no semi skilled opportunity. At present across the country we see that more and more semi skilled jobs are taken by non-nationals.

Go to any Secondary school and most do woodwork with construction as a follow on. However Metelwork with engineering as a follow on for leaving cert is not existance. Most young adults cannot use a spanner have never seen a monkey wrench or vice grips. Over the last 10 years I know no young lad in the locality that has gone on to be a car mechanic. The amount doing trades is decimated.

There is an over reliance on teaching acadmenic subjects in school. We no longer have Vocational schools we have community schools etc. Nearly 90% of kids go on to 3rd level to mind a child in a creche you need a fetac qulification.

You Might wonder what this has to do with the minimum wage and low rates of pay, it leaves loads too many workers at the bottom of the heap especially young males. Then a generous social welfare system sucks them into a non work-lazy life ethic.

It is easy to blame everyone else but some of these people and there parents bear responsbility as well. It is too easy to sit at home watching Dr Phil with a duvet for the morning. By the way this is not jut a lower socio-economic issue.

Take work experience in schools, the majority of kids go to shadow teachers, office work or maybe trades. How many go to a tyre shop and spend a week getting dirty and being cold and understanding this is the outlook if you do not do well in school. We need to change the education system and make teachers understand that they need to prepare children for worklife as well as acdemic life. Lots of children are not ready for the responsibility of college life. Too many parents hand feed them and fail to push them in the right direction.

Then we have an overly generous welfare system that meas that those that are on low wages are no better off than being on welfare. If anything they are worse off. By low wages I mean those on sub 25K/year. If a couple are on these wages and have to pick up all day to day costs then they are no better off than a couple on welfare with subsidized accomodation, free medical care, no property tax etc etc.

Penny Tration

hmmm wrote: »

The problem is that if you increase the minimum wage, it becomes harder for employers to afford to take on junior or inexperienced employees. Kids fresh out of school need to get a break into the workplace, and no-one is going to take them on at 11 euros an hour.

It might sound callous also, but if you're on minimum wage you need to be looking to upskill or move on to a higher paying job - it will never be a place to, for example, raise a family on (unless we jack up the minimum wage, in which case a lot of people will lose their jobs/not get a job in the first place).

What I think does need to happen is that people should never be in a position where staying on the dole is financially better than working on the minimum wage.

Upskilling isn't always an option, though.

I'm college educated, with lots of experience, and I'm finishing up a minimum wage job today.

Considering I was on minimum wage, i couldn't afford to upskill. I couldn't afford to go back to college. The only way I could have gone back to college was via BTEA, which I'd need to be unemployed to get.

Luckily, I'm moving to a slightly higher paid job tomorrow, but I only got that through business connections, not skill.