The role of garage/mechanic in 2014

Kellford

Genuine question, what's the role of a Garage/mechanic, when you present them with a issue with your vehicle
A) Run tests and break it down to initial fault.
Start by replacing a list of parts and see where it ends up.
Or is there an option C) I'm missing out on.

Focus_sligo

Mainly a with a bit of b thrown in! We call A root diagnosis, get to the root of the issue

martinr5232

Usually a lot of mind reading to try and figure out what the actual complaint is.

Then we wave our magic wand (also known as diagnostic computer) thats it fault fixed.

bucketybuck

Kellford wrote: »

Genuine question, what's the role of a Garage/mechanic, when you present them with a issue with your vehicle
A) Run tests and break it down to initial fault.
Start by replacing a list of parts and see where it ends up.
Or is there an option C) I'm missing out on.

C) Identify intermittent fault in complicated piece of machinery with thousands of moving parts and then listen to customer complaint that it took more than an hour.

Kellford

When I presented to the local garage with a fuelling issue, they want me to replace parts to get to the bottom of the problem, when I suggested running checks on these parts and presented them with the tests to check these parts, they said these checks cant be guaranteed and only way to know for sure is to replace all parts, and that the owner online forums are only the equivalent to pub talk, this is not a new vehicle and parts are expensive and difficult to get.

Volvoair

C) under strict orders to relieve you of your cash .
advise timing belt change regardless of type of fault,

Kellford

martinr5232 wrote: »

Usually a lot of mind reading to try and figure out what the actual complaint is.

Then we wave our magic wand (also known as diagnostic computer) thats it fault fixed.

so it was diagnosed with a list of possible causes, and the garage expect me to run out and replace these parts, and when I suggested running checks on these parts and presented them with a break down of how to check them, they just weren't interested, I know time is money but the parts they suggested I buy are a lot more expensive

bucketybuck

Kellford wrote: »

When I presented to the local garage with a fuelling issue, they want me to replace parts to get to the bottom of the problem, when I suggested running checks on these parts and presented them with the tests to check these parts, they said these checks cant be guaranteed and only way to know for sure is to replace all parts, and that the owner online forums are only the equivalent to pub talk, this is not a new vehicle and parts are expensive and difficult to get.

They were right, online forums are basically pub talk.

And when it comes to fuel systems it can be very difficult to run "tests" on certain parts, there are specialised engineering companies that still can't accurately test the injectors in our trucks. With many fuel systems the quickest and most efficient way to determine the fault is to work through the entire system, swapping out parts until the causal part is identified.

bucketybuck

Kellford wrote: »

so it was diagnosed with a list of possible causes, and the garage expect me to run out and replace these parts, and when I suggested running checks on these parts and presented them with a break down of how to check them, they just weren't interested, I know time is money but the parts they suggested I buy are a lot more expensive

What checks did you suggest to them, and why didn't you just do them yourself?

Kellford

bucketybuck wrote: »

What checks did you suggest to them, and why didn't you just do them yourself?

1st of all Im not a mechanic and dont know how to use a multimeter (think thats what its called)

To check the Timing Control Valve:
- Disconnect the Timing Control Valve connector and measure the resistance between the connector terminals. It should be 10 - 14 ohms at 20 degrees C (68 degrees F.) If resistance is not as specified, replace the valve.
Then inspect the valve's solenoid by applying 12 volts to the terminals of the connector, positive to the B+ terminal of connector, battery ground to terminal TCV. Check to make sure solenoid "clicks". If it doesn't, replace the valve.
(do not apply power for more than 30 seconds, and wait until unit cools before re-checking). Re-connect the Timing Control Valve connector

cml387

That procedure is fine for someone who has a multimeter and a source of 12V to activate the soldenoid (and on the face of it seems pretty straightforward to me but then I come form an electronics backround).
I do wonder sometimes, given that cars have an increasing amount of electronics, that some mechanics may be lacking in proper electronics training.

Idbatterim

Genuine question, what's the role of a Garage/mechanic, when you present them with a issue with your vehicle
A) Run tests and break it down to initial fault.
Start by replacing a list of parts and see where it ends up.
Or is there an option C) I'm missing out on.

easy to say when it is in their interest and they arent shelling out potentially several hundred on multiple parts to often address the issue with only one part... What car is it op?

porsche boy

Idbatterim wrote: »

easy to say when it is in their interest and they arent shelling out potentially several hundred on multiple parts to often address the issue with only one part... What car is it op?

Well the OP's suggestion would involve a large and mount of labour, would he be okay with being charged a couple of hundred euro for 'diagnostic testing'?

Kellford

porsche boy wrote: »

Well the OP's suggestion would involve a large and mount of labour, would he be okay with being charged a couple of hundred euro for 'diagnostic testing'?

how is that so, if you can test a part in a couple of minutes, in comparison to spending hours removing and replacing parts?

porsche boy

Kellford wrote: »

how is that so, if you can test a part in a couple of minutes, in comparison to spending hours removing and replacing parts?

It all comes down to what part your testing and how you test it. Usually parts would be removed for testing, although some could be tested in place. After that it's little difference if you fit back the old part or fit a new one.
I have this nearly every day... there is a cost of labour to look at or diagnose a car. As my daddy did say, someone who works for free will always be busy.

Kellford

porsche boy wrote: »

It all comes down to what part your testing and how you test it. Usually parts would be removed for testing, although some could be tested in place. After that it's little difference if you fit back the old part or fit a new one.
I have this nearly every day... there is a cost of labour to look at or diagnose a car. As my daddy did say, someone who works for free will always be busy.

Nobody is working for nothing, I already have a bill of a couple of hundred quid, the garage dropped, flushed tank and changed filters before ever doing a diagnostics, as I suggested the diagnostics to them. Particular engine is 1KZ-TE throwing up fault code 14, garage recommended I get fuel pump, metering valve and timing solenoid, how many hours labour do you reckon the cost off all those parts would get you? The day of the mechanic is dead, long live the fitter

biko

Kellford wrote: »

owner online forums are only the equivalent to pub talk

They are, we even have it in our charter

* This is a public forum used by people with no idea what they are talking about. Don't assume the advice given is correct.

Kellford

biko wrote: »

They are, we even have it in our charter

They the garage said these checks cant be guaranteed and only way to know for sure is to replace all parts, and that the owner online forums are only the equivalent to pub talk. But yet the more forums from Owners clubs researched they all seem to suggest the same checks, as this fault has occurred before with varying outcomes and it has a specific fault code.

robtri

if you wanted to run diagnostics, and then do tests on the parts as you outlined... and the refused and wanted to change all the parts...
why did you agree?? why not go somewhere else??

I am not saying the mechanic was doing anything wrong, but if i ask, as a paying customer to have a particular job done and the vendor refuses, i simpley go somewhere else.....

why let them keep replacing parts if it is not what you wanted??

dieselbug

[QUOTE= The day of the mechanic is dead, long live the fitter[/QUOTE]

"the day of the mechanic is dead" Probably, sure arent we all technicians now

Seriously though with the advancement of electricial systems in todays vehicles it,s not easy to keep up.

Training and up to date equipment and data is expensive but necessary if you dont want to fall behind the technology.

A digital multimeter is the very basics of test equipment needed nowadays and any tech serious about his work will know his way around with it.

Getting back to your car, Hi Lux or landcruiser I presume. This would seem to be a common enough problem and you seem to have your research done. A quick google suggests thre are two small filters in the pump itself that may be worth checking before you get in too deep, maybe checked already.

And by the way this system would be considered obsolate nowadays, pre common rail.

cerastes

cml387 wrote: »

That procedure is fine for someone who has a multimeter and a source of 12V to activate the soldenoid (and on the face of it seems pretty straightforward to me but then I come form an electronics backround).
I do wonder sometimes, given that cars have an increasing amount of electronics, that some mechanics may be lacking in proper electronics training.

It does sound pretty straight forward, I think most electrics are, but electronics can be a different story, certain components may be powered from in the circuit they are integrated into, so testing the exact faulty component/item may not be possible, this may not exactly be the case with car electronics, ie snesors are probably run back to the cars engine management controller (ECU if thats what they are called).

In as much as I agree with the OP, it might end up being more expensive in the from of time consuming for the garage to test in the manner you are suggesting (possibly) or maybe they dont have that level of experience and see it as easier to replace parts, which in some cases may be as effective as testing everything and still come up inconclusive or have an intermittant fault return and then have you come back thinking they didnt find it.
On the one hand, cars are more complicated and on the other, diagnostics doesnt or cant tell everything, eg I had a problem with a car, was told 12v was going to the part, so it must be the part thats faulty intermittantly, having already done my own investigation and used to troubleshooting faults in another mechanical (even related) field, I didnt believe them or their sole reliance on diagnostics, as the next time I tried to start the vehicle, it wouldnt start, I brought my own 12vs to the item and its worked ever since, but the wiring to the item couldnt be traced all the way, due to wires and connections being inaccessible.

CJhaughey

Is it a 90 series or the Hilux?
Older 90 series can have trouble with the feed return arrangement on top of the tank becoming porous through corrosion, worth a check even though you say the tank was dropped and cleaned.
Secondly, is there many miles on that engine? As the pumps wear they can cause problems.
That code can be thrown up from a few different sources, crankshaft sensor, ECU and pump.
Even though its a relatively simple engine by modern diesel standards its still electronically controlled.
I'd start with the basics clean pipes and make sure they aren't porous anywhere, then filters (teabag style in tank) and main filter, then small pump filter at front next to model plate
After that its a matter of trying another ECU from a known good vehicle, same with Fuel pump.
There are plenty of these around so it shouldn't be that hard to find a spare one.

Kellford

robtri wrote: »

if you wanted to run diagnostics, and then do tests on the parts as you outlined... and the refused and wanted to change all the parts...
why did you agree?? why not go somewhere else??

I am not saying the mechanic was doing anything wrong, but if i ask, as a paying customer to have a particular job done and the vendor refuses, i simpley go somewhere else.....

why let them keep replacing parts if it is not what you wanted??

I haven't let them change any parts, they suggested changing parts before I found the tests required to test the parts in question. Its at a stand till now until awaiting amount owed

Kellford

dieselbug wrote: »

"the day of the mechanic is dead" Probably, sure arent we all technicians now

Seriously though with the advancement of electricial systems in todays vehicles it,s not easy to keep up.

Training and up to date equipment and data is expensive but necessary if you dont want to fall behind the technology.

A digital multimeter is the very basics of test equipment needed nowadays and any tech serious about his work will know his way around with it.

Getting back to your car, Hi Lux or landcruiser I presume. This would seem to be a common enough problem and you seem to have your research done. A quick google suggests thre are two small filters in the pump itself that may be worth checking before you get in too deep, maybe checked already.

And by the way this system would be considered obsolate nowadays, pre common rail.

The small filter you mention I had to tell them of that also, small bit of scum in it which they said wouldn't cause the problem

nc19

Kellford wrote: »

When I presented to the local garage with a fuelling issue, they want me to replace parts to get to the bottom of the problem, when I suggested running checks on these parts and presented them with the tests to check these parts, they said these checks cant be guaranteed and only way to know for sure is to replace all parts, and that the owner online forums are only the equivalent to pub talk, this is not a new vehicle and parts are expensive and difficult to get.

in fairness, if you are so sure how to fix why bother with the mechanic??

Kellford

CJhaughey wrote: »

Is it a 90 series or the Hilux?
Older 90 series can have trouble with the feed return arrangement on top of the tank becoming porous through corrosion, worth a check even though you say the tank was dropped and cleaned.
Secondly, is there many miles on that engine? As the pumps wear they can cause problems.
That code can be thrown up from a few different sources, crankshaft sensor, ECU and pump.
Even though its a relatively simple engine by modern diesel standards its still electronically controlled.
I'd start with the basics clean pipes and make sure they aren't porous anywhere, then filters (teabag style in tank) and main filter, then small pump filter at front next to model plate
After that its a matter of trying another ECU from a known good vehicle, same with Fuel pump.
There are plenty of these around so it shouldn't be that hard to find a spare one.

My next step with it is send fuel pump of to get tested, vehicle is more sentimental value, left to me by a relative who passed away,

Kellford

nc19 wrote: »

in fairness, if you are so sure how to fix why bother with the mechanic??

In fairness i'm not a mechanic, don't have or know how to use a multimeter, I simply recommenced running checks on parts before I went out and replaced them. To me it doesnt make sense going to a scrap yard as recommended only to fit a part that could be dodgy and never getting to the bottom of the problem

gctest50

Kellford wrote: »

My next step with it is send fuel pump of to get tested.......

why ???????

stick a pressure gauge on the fuel system while its on the engine

diesel engines generate high fuel pressures

- can cut your hand in two no problem -

look here :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532970/figure/F1/

.

Kellford

gctest50 wrote: »

[/B]
why ???????

stick a pressure gauge on the fuel system while its on the engine

simply from reading online saying the fuel injection pump can cause trouble, and I might as well be looking into a field of thistles as looking into it, will look into paying for work done and have someone else look at it.

gctest50

Kellford wrote: »

........ I already have a bill of a couple of hundred quid, the garage dropped, flushed tank and changed filters before ever doing a diagnostics..........

i think some of them get lonesome for the smell of diesel and love swimming in it

this is the sort of craic i was on about :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcEJ-E-r38k

ArnieSilvia

Kellford wrote: »

simply from reading online saying the fuel injection pump can cause trouble, and I might as well be looking into a field of thistles as looking into it, will look into paying for work done and have someone else look at it.

I know exactly where you're coming from. The days of basic mechanics are gone and today's cars require diagnostics on totally different level. The issue is, that it requires knowledge, so if garages want to get smart enough people to do decent work, they need to pay higher wages to get those people in.

When I was in trouble, I was willing to pay the specialist to help me out but their incompetence ("citroen specialist xx years in business") forced me to buy a diagnostic interface, get wiring diagrams and figure out myself what the problem was. From there on I learned how to get evidence to prove that component is faulty rather than replacing parts like they wanted (and they were wrong). Frankly, I could not believe how they missed the fault as it was obvious once I got software to work. They apparently had same software

In my opinion, buy yourself a multimeter (30-70 euro) and do your checks. Get yourself an obd interface (scantool.net with proper software is a good choice IMO, some suggest torque app), or even better a dedicated interface if you plan keeping the car (it'll pay back quicker than you think). With proper interface you can turn on/off actuators without even putting a wire to it. Alternatively you can run a wire with a fuse and switch, hook it up as per instructions. Be careful though as you can do damage.

As you can see the options are there. I totally agree with you that it needs to be proven that component is faulty before replacing it. And you're right that replacing component takes time and money and is pure waste.

And you know what, sometimes I look up on the net to check if someone else had same issue. Nothing wrong with that and can save loads of work and point straight to the problem. It's called research, people;)

cerastes

Kellford wrote: »

In fairness i'm not a mechanic, don't have or know how to use a multimeter, I simply recommenced running checks on parts before I went out and replaced them. To me it doesnt make sense going to a scrap yard as recommended only to fit a part that could be dodgy and never getting to the bottom of the problem

USe of a multimeter to learn to do some basic testing is not difficult, you might only be checking resistance, voltage or continuity, no big deals, check youtube.

gctest50 wrote: »

[/B]
why ???????

stick a pressure gauge on the fuel system while its on the engine

diesel engines generate high fuel pressures

- can cut your hand in two no problem -

look here :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532970/figure/F1/

.

Isn't it that the fuel pumps are engine driven? I thought maybe only boosted from the tank, Im not even sure if mine has a pump from the tank as when I changed the filter (in the engine bay) it was baxtard to get it primed again, not as easy as Mr Haynes suggested and I was concerned about running the battery flat trying, even though Id made my best effort to not drain unneccesarily any pipes and primed the lines leading to the engine/main pump, it wouldnt run long enough to get it going.
It said nothing about being able to bleed it, and Id be well concerned about high pressure injection into exposed skin, potentially fatal I believe.

Does residual pressure remain when the engine is off? I havent looked into this, but I presume there are means available at the pump to bleed this pressure/pressurised diesel back into/through a pressure reducing device and maybe to return to the filter, otherwise how does anyone breakdown that systems components for repair/test?

gctest50

cerastes wrote: »

............
Does residual pressure remain when the engine is off? I havent looked into this, but I presume there are means available at the pump to bleed this pressure/pressurised diesel back into/through a pressure reducing device and maybe to return to the filter, otherwise how does anyone breakdown that systems components for repair/test?

you shouldn't trust that though especially if the whole thing is acting up
- easy for a bleed hole to get blocked

cerastes

gctest50 wrote: »

you shouldn't trust that though especially if the whole thing is acting up
- easy for a bleed hole to get blocked

Unless there was some means of fitting a pressure gauge or checking it on available diagnostics that a pressure reduction had occured?

CJhaughey

The 1-KZTE isn't common rail so there isn't massive pressure in the system like a D4D, that said even old school diesels generate enough pressure to force diesel into the skin if you stick your hand over an injector.
Once you crack any nut on the system the pressure bleeds off very quickly though, there isn't much volume in the system to blast diesel everywhere.
There isn't any pump in the tank just a feed/return and a plastic teabag filter on the end of the pickup.
The priming pumps on the fuel filter mount give up on older Toyota's the diaphragm inside splits and won't prime properly.
Easy thing to do is fit a squeeze bulb like the ones in Peugeot 406 diesels.

Interslice

If if it were mine I'd consider three options once I was happy there was no air getting in or blockages and the timing valve came up within spec. A replacement from a scrap yard. If these pumps give hassle it might be the reason it was scrapped. The history of the car being broken would be helpfull. A new pump... Third is to convert the pump to a mechanical version (mtdi). These pumpd are difficult to diagnose. On my primera I'm going for option 3. Unfortunately outside of vag cars there is little software available to the public to accurately diagnose problems within electronic distributor pumps or to make any software adjustments to them. Vagcom foe example will give you a readout of the timing advance requested by the ecu and the actual advance. Don't forget to take your own time and stress levels into the cost of the repair. Not familiar with the engine but the pumps are usually not to mad to access. I reckon it would take less than an hour to check that valve.