Landlords to deduct Water Charges from Tenants Deposits

Daith

stevedublin wrote: »

according to the OP, the landlord is responsible for paying the bill, no?

Afaik, the charge is against the property but is paid by the occupant. If the occupant doesn't pay the landlord needs to pay and can use the deposit?

gizmo555

stevedublin wrote: »

according to the OP, the landlord is responsible for paying the bill, no?

Daith wrote: »

Afaik, the charge is against the property but is paid by the occupant. If the occupant doesn't pay the landlord needs to pay and can use the deposit?

Who knows? Just the latest unthought through and unexplained stupidity in this epic fiasco.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Maybe a legal person can answer this, but how can you put a charge on person A's property that relates to a liability of person B?

pc7

I haven't protested on any of the IW stuff from the start, I registered my home, gave my pps, asked about what to do with my tenants and now this latest kick in the face. I may actually get up and go protest at the next march because this clusterF**k just gets worse. I'm so annoyed, now it could be I've just done my income tax return and its such a killer seeing what I pay on a house I never planned to be a landlord on and that is just hardwork and now here is more heaped on. I can't wait until the point I'm even close to break even so I can get rid of the thing.

Arbiter of Good Taste

pc7 wrote: »

I haven't protested on any of the IW stuff from the start, I registered my home, gave my pps, asked about what to do with my tenants and now this latest kick in the face. I may actually get up and go protest at the next march because this clusterF**k just gets worse. I'm so annoyed, now it could be I've just done my income tax return and its such a killer seeing what I pay on a house I never planned to be a landlord on and that is just hardwork and now here is more heaped on. I can't wait until the point I'm even close to break even so I can get rid of the thing.

I'm like you. In principle, I supported the need for water charges. This is just the final kick in the teeth for me.

Shivi111

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I'm like you. In principle, I supported the need for water charges. This is just the final kick in the teeth for me.

Ditto here, I was okay with the charges, but clearly they haven't a clue what they are doing. I'll be at the next protest.

rubberdiddies

Minister Kelly or whatever highly paid public servant thought this up for him hasn't a scooby doo. not a clue.

Firstly it is supposedly a landlords responsibility to tell IW who is in their house and who is responsible for the water bill. Isn't there a data protection breach there somewhere?

Secondly, lets say €1,000 deposit is paid at the start. At the end of 5 years tenancy, the tenant owes IW €1,100 but the landlord is owed €500 for damage. Whats supposed to happen here? Are IW entitled to the €1,000? Who pays the balance of €100? Opens it up to tenants deciding to withold their last months rent because they know they owe an IW bill. If it wasn't so serious it'd be pure comedy.

These fools have no idea how to run a 100metre race let alone a country.

EDIT: I should add that this morning, the agents looking after my property rang to ask about renewing the tenants contract. My tenants are currently paying 30% under market rate. I told the agent that because they have been excellent tenants and have been there 4 years, not to increase the rent. Because of the above balls up by Minister Kelly, I'm more than likely now going to actually increase the rent a small bit to cover any potential future problem with IW.

Muahahaha

davo10 wrote: »

I just spoke to IW about this. I wanted to check if my tenants had signed up, IW will not give out that information.

What he did say is that if tenant has not signed up by time bill is generated, they will contact me. I can then give them tenants details and quote " we will chase them from that point onward". Happy days.

Might not be happy days if the tenant later complains to the Data Protection Commissioner. I'd be holding fire for a while till he has made judgement on the matter, otherwise you might find yourself the wrong side of the law by giving a private company the name of your tenant. Irish Water won't be taking responsibility for your actions even if thats what they told you to do so don't find yourself the wrong side of the law just on their say so, they've hardly shown themselves to be competent thus far.

murphaph

Will they be attaching a charge to council owned properties where the tenant hasn't paid I wonder?! What about the various housing associations? They must be very concerned about this as well.

kandoola

I was talking to a mate today who owns a good few rental properties.
He told me that he does not want to have to becomes the middle man in disputes between the tenants and IW at the end of a tenancy where only he can be the loser (he said that was the main reason he stopped accepting rent allowance too).

He reckons now the only way to protect himself and have a hassle free water supply to the tenant is to just divide the cap by 12 and add it on to the monthly rent and just tell the tenant its a water charge. He will tell the tenant that he will just forward the water charge to IW in his (or the properties) name.

So that simplifies life for him apart from one major detail.
If he cannot put the water charge down as an expense, then he will have to pay about 50% tax on the money he collects for it. So he'll have to pass that on to the tenant.

So say the cap to be €240.
He will add €40 per month to the rent as a water charge. Pay the govt €20 of that in tax for the month and then €20 to IW.
He might even add an administration charge onto it too if he finds its taking his time up too.

Seems unfair on the tenant, but he reckons thats his easiest way out of becoming a middle man who will most certainly be the one losing in any disputes or mistakes. He reckons all landlords are going to go that way too. Hes going to post the idea on irishlandlords.

We really need the govt to rethink this.

Daith

kandoola wrote: »

I was talking to a mate today who owns a good few rental properties.
He told me that he does not want to have to becomes the middle man in disputes between the tenants and IW at the end of a tenancy where only he can be the loser (he said that was the main reason he stopped accepting rent allowance too).

He reckons now the only way to protect himself and have a hassle free water supply to the tenant is to just divide the cap by 12 and add it on to the monthly rent and just tell the tenant its a water charge. He will tell the tenant that he will just forward the water charge to IW in his (or the properties) name.

So that simplifies life for him apart from one major detail.
If he cannot put the water charge down as an expense, then he will have to pay about 50% tax on the money he collects for it. So he'll have to pass that on to the tenant.

So say the cap to be €240.
He will add €40 per month to the rent as a water charge. Pay the govt €20 of that in tax for the month and then €20 to IW.
He might even add an administration charge onto it too if he finds its taking his time up too.

Seems unfair on the tenant, but he reckons thats his easiest way out of becoming a middle man who will most certainly be the one losing in any disputes or mistakes. He reckons all landlords are going to go that way too. Hes going to post the idea on irishlandlords.

We really need the govt to rethink this.

Will your mate give the tenants the €100 back in Sept? Or will he give them back 60 minus the admin fees?

murphaph

Daith wrote: »

Will your mate give the tenants the €100 back in Sept? Or will he give them back 60 minus the admin fees?

I'd keep the whole bloody lot if I were him.

gizmo555

kandoola wrote: »

He reckons now the only way to protect himself and have a hassle free water supply to the tenant is to just divide the cap by 12 and add it on to the monthly rent and just tell the tenant its a water charge. He will tell the tenant that he will just forward the water charge to IW in his (or the properties) name.

That's OK for the moment, but what will he do when the cap is removed, as it will have to be, in years to come?

The whole idea is wrong in principle, and in practice - as you've just outlined in this case - tenants will be worse off for it, not landlords.

Big Davey

davo10 wrote: »

I just spoke to IW about this. I wanted to check if my tenants had signed up, IW will not give out that information.

What he did say is that if tenant has not signed up by time bill is generated, they will contact me. I can then give them tenants details and quote " we will chase them from that point onward". Happy days.

Yes they will chase them for sure BUT if they don't catch them YOU will be paying the bill or getting a judgement against your property.

gizmo555

Big Davey wrote: »

Yes they will chase them for sure BUT if they don't catch them YOU will be paying the bill or getting a judgement against your property.

If you were Irish Water, how hard would you be chasing a now-disappeared tenant when you've a guaranteed mark in the landlord?

PeadarCo

Is this not just what happens in most house sharing situations with utility bills. Any house share situations I've ever come across the landlord pays the electricity/broadband/gas etc bill and then just recharges the tenants present in the house for the relevant periods and providing the invoices as support. If at end of a tenancy a person isn't fully up to date with bills its deducted from their deposit instead of the landlord or remaining and new tenants taking the hit.

I appreciate that not all tenancy agreements are house shares and thus might result in a different solution.

Daith

PeadarCo wrote: »

Is this not just what happens in most house sharing situations with utility bills. Any house share situations I've ever come across the landlord pays the electricity/broadband/gas etc bill and then just recharges the tenants present in the house for the relevant periods and providing the invoices as support. If at end of a tenancy a person isn't fully up to date with bills its deducted from their deposit instead of the landlord or remaining and new tenants taking the hit.

I appreciate that not all tenancy agreements are house shares and thus might result in a different solution.

Never lived in a house share like that. All bills were split between tenants. Not sure how the rebate works if the tenant who registered with IW moves out.

The_Morrigan

I wonder is the rebate 'real' money or a credit against the registered ppsn towards the charges for the following year.

foggy_lad

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I wonder is the rebate 'real' money or a credit against the registered ppsn towards the charges for the following year.

By the time they are supposed to pay the rebate they will have some lame excuse not to pay it like Europe won't allow it or they spent so much on setting up IW that they can't afford the rebate.....rinse spin and repeat

kandoola

Daith wrote: »

Will your mate give the tenants the €100 back in Sept? Or will he give them back 60 minus the admin fees?

I doubt he'll give them anything back. Hes pretty pissed off about it and doesnt want more work on his plate. Either the govt want him to work for them or they dont. If they do he expects to be paid for his time.

I think the govt are only too happy to let it go down like this.
Sure they did the same with property tax and second home charges. Brought it all in knowing eventually it would be passed on to the tenant and then they sat back and collected not only the new taxes, but also extra income tax too.

cerastes

Graces7 wrote: »

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That wont work and is not working!

I think the mob is working, but I call it a democratic movement.

murphaph wrote: »

You're giving these morons far too much credit. They just haven't thought this through at all.

I agree, they are just careering from one disater to the next, just shows how clueless they are.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Who knows? Just the latest unthought through and unexplained stupidity in this epic fiasco.

Thats what this is, they seem to be too far removed from reality, that is real circumstances, not some figurative reality, to be able to comprehend what all the hub ub is about. Be grand, the proles on their minimum wage of what was it? 35k? ffs.

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Maybe a legal person can answer this, but how can you put a charge on person A's property that relates to a liability of person B?

This I would like to know, Im sure they'll intend on bringing in legislation to back this.

Daith wrote: »

Will your mate give the tenants the €100 back in Sept? Or will he give them back 60 minus the admin fees?

Whats this? the allowance? well who would get it? if its the landlord that has to set it up and administer it, all that extra hassle and work dealing with it when a tenant could do so, Id keep the lot.
On top of this, it should be able to get a summary of an account at anytime by the account holder, and it should be possible to wrap up an account at one meter address and get a final account statement, which can either be transferred to the new property or paid in full.

Big Davey wrote: »

Yes they will chase them for sure BUT if they don't catch them YOU will be paying the bill or getting a judgement against your property.

Why cant it be dealt with by following the tenant, how is this even possible to consider charging the property/owner???
How does Bord gais/electric Ireland work? presumably they can trace people through supplied bank account details and in the event of non payment, follow that up and investigate to locate them by their PPSN then, possibly by the Gardai or charged to a legitmate private organisation, how in the fcuk can they even think its appropriate to charge the landlord, what the fcuk, just send me the bill for their gas/electric and mobile phone while they're at it.

Daith

cerastes wrote: »

Whats this? the allowance? well who would get it? if its the landlord that has to set it up and administer it, all that extra hassle and work dealing with it when a tenant could do so, Id keep the lot.
On top of this, it should be able to get a summary of an account at anytime by the account holder, and it should be possible to wrap up an account at one meter address and get a final account statement, which can either be transferred to the new property or paid in full.
.

The landlord doesn't though. If the tenant(s) are good tenants who have no problem signing up to IW and paying their bills why wouldn't they get money back?

Landlords assuming their tenants are going to be bad tenants are another thing. If you can't trust someone paying a bill, why trust them living in your house?

pc7

Daith wrote: »

Landlords assuming their tenants are going to be bad tenants are another thing. If you can't trust someone paying a bill, why trust them living in your house?

I trust my tenants to pay for their bills (like gas, electricity, tv etc.) because if they don't there are consequences (eg when they move and try to get a bill in their name again it will be on file) and I'm not responsible if they don't pay. In this instance there is no consequence, the bill doesn't follow them it stays with me and my property. I've had tenants who were a dream until the final month, then its, we're off, not paying last month use the deposit. I've had RA tenant (never again because of them which is unfair to other tenants), that don't give deposits and fecked off out of the country clearing out the entire house. Why would a tenant be bothered registering and paying with no come back if they don't?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'm moving out of my place in September, just when the rebate is due. Presumably the landlord will get new tenants then so how does the rebate work in that case? Do I get 8 months worth of it and new tenant gets 4 months? Do I not get any rebate at all? Think I'll just lie on the form and say I live alone. I'll end up paying the same amount that way and won't claim the rebate.

Daith

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm moving out of my place in September, just when the rebate is due. Presumably the landlord will get new tenants then so how does the rebate work in that case? Do I get 8 months worth of it and new tenant gets 4 months? Do I not get any rebate at all? Think I'll just lie on the form and say I live alone. I'll end up paying the same amount that way and won't claim the rebate.

Confused about this also. Are the DSP going to check that the individual who's registered has paid three IW payments? Or that the dwelling has 3 IW payments paid?

AlanG

This whole thing seems a mess. if the charge doesn't pass on to the property until some time after it is overdue then how can the landlord legally confirm that the bill is paid?

keno-daytrader

Most of these questions cant be answered because they are making it up as they go along.

Doom

snubbleste wrote: »

Kelly said it will be in the new legislation.

It's not really new.
State expects tenants to retain 20% rent for non-resident landlords and hand it over to Revenue.

Thats for tax...IW intents to be a utility service...like esb or gas, do landlords do this for esb or gas bills....No

HeidiHeidi

On a practical note, I emailed IW re the rental confusion - re tenants leaving mid - billing period, and the rebate (who gets it, and when).. To their credit they replied within 24 hours.

However, that's all the credit they're getting - this what they replied

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Thank you for your email regarding rental properties.

The occupier of the property is liable for water charges. Landlords will be provided with the facility to provide their tenant’s names

prior to the commencement of billing in April 2015, if they have not already done so. In the meantime, tenants are encouraged to respond to the request for them to apply to Irish Water before February 2nd, 2015. The new application form is currently available to download on our website. This can be returned by freepost to our postal address below. When this is returned to us, we will record the tenant at the address they are occupying and create an account number for them in order to bill them for water usage.

 

The water conservation grant announced by the government this week will be administered by the Department of Social Protection, and will be given to households in late 2015, after billing by Irish Water has commenced. Please bear with us while we implement our new changes to water charges and tariffs. More information will be made available through our website prior to commencement of billing in April 2015.

 

If you have any further queries you can visit our Questions and Answers section here, alternatively you can reach us by using the contact details below.

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'

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'

Needless to say I'm none the wiser.

Jasper79

And when I rang Irish water to confirm that my property was rented, they wouldn't take the tennants name from me. They advised they could only send the registration to the occupier..