What I think kills cars?

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

Depreciation.

If they held their value better we would more willingly spend the money on major repairs.

I just don't see any other reason why a modern car would be condemned. They don't rust and the engines last forever.

MuppetCheck

Spending money regularly is what gets people, be it fuel, tax, servicing, tyres. Depreciation is only realised when you sell the car. It shouldn't affect the running of a car when in your ownership.

goz83

No. It's the year on the plate that kills them in Ireland. People are already planning to get their 151 D economy sh1t box of paddy spec in January.

NIMAN

I have always thought that with the advances in manufacturing and engineering, cars should be a lot more reliable than they actually are.

Skatedude

never understood the idea of buying new cars. You lose so much money. As for reliability.
that's why I'm sticking with my 93 bmw 740. Last of the old generation that can actually be fixed by your local mechanic without needing a computer specialist.

I've had it for 8 years and even with servicing and the rare repair, it still cost less then the cheapest new car available.
Mind you, i'm not including motor tax, but you dont have to go for a 4 litre car.

Skatedude

Skatedude wrote: »

never understood the idea of buying new cars.

Secondhand cars don't just appear out of thin air you know.

rex-x

You haven't owned a Mercedes if you think they don't rust :pac:

Cookie_Monster

NIMAN wrote: »

I have always thought that with the advances in manufacturing and engineering, cars should be a lot more reliable than they actually are.

old cars are far more mechanically simple so less to go wrong and easier to fix when they do. Modern cars are horrendously complicated things, especially with all the electronics and computers added in to the list of things that can go wrong.

Kevin McCloud

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Modern cars are horrendously complicated things, especially with all the electronics and computers added in to the list of things that can go wrong.

Is it not a human that has developed and engineered such vehicle, how is it possible that a car made by human can be horrendously complicated?

Jim Murphy 69

Car companies have the capability to manufacture a vehicle that could pretty much last a lifetime. They now all employ planned obsolescence to make more money and force people to buy newer vehicles.

Remember the days (20 years ago) when companies such as Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Honda and Toyota making great cars that would last almost forever if taken care of?

With the enormous advancement in manufacturing techniques, materials and design testing (FEA) we should now have cars that last 10 times longer but the opposite has happened. We now have "plastic fantastic" cars that are designed to last a known period.

This point can be clearly seen in motorsport where money is not of great significance and generally the "Rolls Royce" of components are used. How often do modern F1 cars break down compared to 15 years ago even with far greater use of electronics? I remember it was luck if half the grid finished the race in 1999 due to a vehicle failure! F1 reliability has improved exponentially over the last 15 years so why hasn't this trend trickled down to road vehicles?

It's not the fact that more electronics are used in road vehicles, it's the fact that such components have a cost factor involved. Car companies want greater profits (10%) from their investments and were no longer happier with steady growth (3%). Mercedes and Toyota are a prime example and we can now see exactly where quality went in the last 15 years from both manufacturers.

You know they could if they wanted to but they ain't going to be that stupid!

braddun

reliable cars buy Toyota but pretty boring

Sobanek

Here is Top 10 most reliable cars of 2010-2011.

1. Volkswagen Polo 2.2% 32 000 km
2. Mazda 3 2.7% 38 000 km
3. Audi Q5 2.8% 61 000 km
4. Toyota Avensis 2.9% 44 000 km
5. Mazda 2 3.1% 33 000 km
5. Volkswagen Golf Plus 3.1% 37 000 km
7. Toyota Yaris 3.5% 34 000 km
7. Toyota IQ 3.5% 29 000 km
7. Toyota Prius 3.5% 43 000 km
10. Opel Agila 3.7% 25 000 km

Alucan

When a manufacturer makes a car they make money from selling it today. So they will make a car that is appealing to the new car buyer today not the second hand buyer in ten years they won't make money when the car is sold on. The other issue is price they could engineer a car that will last 30 years with very little maintenance but who would buy it on day one the new car buyer won't pay an extra five grand for that car because most new car buyers want a car that will give them five good years when they will buy another new car

Sobanek

Car manufacturers make most money on car parts - this is a fact.
Mercedes almost went bankrupt with the W123 - it never broke down.

Tail Docker

Sobanek wrote: »

Car manufacturers make most money on car parts - this is a fact.
Mercedes almost went bankrupt with the W123 - it never broke down.

Daihatsu the same. Their parts sales were so low it destroyed their balance sheet. If you built a new car up by buying all the pieces at a main dealer and then assembling it, you'd have a 100k+ car..

Cookie_Monster

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

, how is it possible that a car made by human can be horrendously complicated?

is that a real question

MuppetCheck

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

old cars are far more mechanically simple so less to go wrong and easier to fix when they do. Modern cars are horrendously complicated things, especially with all the electronics and computers added in to the list of things that can go wrong.

20 years ago people were saying the same. Technology evolves but so to does the approach taken to repairs. In 20 years time today's cars will be looked on as simple.

dr.fuzzenstein

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Is it not a human that has developed and engineered such vehicle, how is it possible that a car made by human can be horrendously complicated?

Set up a network with a firewall, Cisco switch, active directory domain controller, exchange, lync, SharePoint and office web apps. Then say that again.

For all the talk on here about reliability people seem to forget or else are not old enough to remember a wet winter morning in the 70s or 80s. Most issues with cars today don't render them stranded

Plenty of mint looking 2004 cars about that are running away reliably, when Italia 90 was on a 10 year old car not as common and usually in tatters.

Alanstrainor

Augeo wrote: »

For all the talk on here about reliability people seem to forget or else are not old enough to remember a wet winter morning in the 70s or 80s. Most issues with cars today don't render them stranded

Plenty of mint looking 2004 cars about that are running away reliably, when Italia 90 was on a 10 year old car not as common and usually in tatters.

This is what my ould fella would say too, he keeps trying to get me to move on from my 2001, but she's looking, and working pretty great at the moment, so I couldn't be bothered! (I've grown very attached to the yoke too!)

bucketybuck

NIMAN wrote: »

I have always thought that with the advances in manufacturing and engineering, cars should be a lot more reliable than they actually are.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

old cars are far more mechanically simple so less to go wrong and easier to fix when they do.

Jim Murphy 69 wrote: »

Remember the days (20 years ago) when companies such as Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Honda and Toyota making great cars that would last almost forever if taken care of?

This type of thing simply isn't true, modern cars are fantastically reliable considering what you are getting. Its a myth to say that cars used to be more reliable, those cars from 20/30 years ago spent far more time broken down than todays cars, in fact most of those cars from 20/30 years ago were complete buckets of scrap.

20 years ago you would easily get up to find your car not starting, or you would find yourself at the side of the road with steam coming from the engine. Nowadays you get a warning light allowing you to plan accordingly and people call it less reliable!!!

Akrasia

NIMAN wrote: »

I have always thought that with the advances in manufacturing and engineering, cars should be a lot more reliable than they actually are.

Many cars are already ridiculously reliable, far more reliable than we have any reasonable right to expect them to be

What other piece of high technology can you expect to buy in 2001, use every day in varying conditions, hot cold. wet, dry, shake to pieces on bumpy roads, accelleration, deceleration etc etc and still expect to be in full working order in 2015?

You can buy 2001 ford Mondeos with 200k miles on the clock where all the electrics and all the components of the car still work perfectly with only standard servicing.

A well maintained car can reliably drive in comfort for decades and hundreds of thousands of kilometers

We always demand better, and this is why things keep improving, but you should still appreciate how lucky we are and how good we have got it.

Sobanek

bucketybuck wrote: »

This type of thing simply isn't true, modern cars are fantastically reliable considering what you are getting. Its a myth to say that cars used to be more reliable, those cars from 20/30 years ago spent far more time broken down than todays cars, in fact most of those cars from 20/30 years ago were complete buckets of scrap.

20 years ago you would easily get up to find your car not starting, or you would find yourself at the side of the road with steam coming from the engine. Nowadays you get a warning light allowing you to plan accordingly and people call it less reliable!!!

My grandmother used to own a "bucket of crap" and it has been at the mechanic's +/- 3 times over a 21 year period.

Akrasia

Alucan wrote: »

When a manufacturer makes a car they make money from selling it today. So they will make a car that is appealing to the new car buyer today not the second hand buyer in ten years they won't make money when the car is sold on. The other issue is price they could engineer a car that will last 30 years with very little maintenance but who would buy it on day one the new car buyer won't pay an extra five grand for that car because most new car buyers want a car that will give them five good years when they will buy another new car

Many people buy a car with a very keen eye on the resale value 2-5 years later. A reliable car is worth a lot more second hand than an Alfa Romeo 156

bucketybuck

Sobanek wrote: »

My grandmother used to own a "bucket of crap" and it has been at the mechanic's +/- 3 times over a 21 year period.

So? Anecdote does not equal data.

If you want to know how reliable cars are today compared to decades ago then just ask all your friends how many of them have to keep a can of Easy-start handy.

kirving

Akrasia wrote: »

Many cars are already ridiculously reliable, far more reliable than we have any reasonable right to expect them to be

What other piece of high technology can you expect to buy in 2001, use every day in varying conditions, hot cold. wet, dry, shake to pieces on bumpy roads, accelleration, deceleration etc etc and still expect to be in full working order in 2015?

You can buy 2001 ford Mondeos with 200k miles on the clock where all the electrics and all the components of the car still work perfectly with only standard servicing.

A well maintained car can reliably drive in comfort for decades and hundreds of thousands of kilometers

We always demand better, and this is why things keep improving, but you should still appreciate how lucky we are and how good we have got it.

Exactly.

As an example, we have a '01 Focus at home. Aside from regular maintenance, all it's really had in that time was new brushes on the fuel pump motor, a battery, and anti-roll bar bushes due to Dublin's ramps. It drives well, is reasonably efficient, has air-con, zero rust, just passed its NCT and is overall a great all rounder. That's with depreciation of less than €1000 per year.

Now, you'll say that it's a boring Focus, and was built to a cost - of course it was, but that's what makes it affordable to almost anyone. It's cost about €2.50 per day in depreciation.

Building to a cost, while maintaining reliability as we see these days, is fine by me.

What car of 20-30 years ago can come close to that?

Akrasia

20 years ago is 1994. The 1994 toyota corolla 1.3 is absolutely legendary for it's reliability.

That car refuses to die, especially considering that it's been traded at the budget end of the market for a decade now and many of them will have had minimal servicing. It's amazing how much punishment they can take.

Cars have been capable of being consistently reliable for at least 20 years now.

I would blame regulations rather than manufactures for a most of the modern issues we see with reliability.

If the EU weren't sticking their nose in it manufacturers could make very economical and reliable cars but because they are being forced to come up with new tricks all the time to stay within the rules while still trying to maintain economy etc. This is bound to lead to some issues as while car technology is very mature a lot of these new emission reducing additions are probably being added with not enough testing etc.

That said a well maintained modern car is overall extremely reliable, lack of regular servicing and maintenance are a lot of the cause of the problems people have with cars.

ianobrien

My view in that lack of maintenance kills car prematurely. Large maintenance bills which are more than the value of the car also "kill" cars in that the car becomes uneconomic to repair.

For example, I recently changed my car due to the looming repair bills and it wasn't economic to repair. It developed a thirst for oil, needed a gearbox rebuild and the clutch springs were shot. The cost of a engine and gearbox rebuild was more than the value of the car after doing the jobs so it had to go. I bought a 141 as Irish people don't look after cars that well (there are a few exceptions here) and as I want the car to last as long as possible I bought a 141.

Talking to people at work (and I work in an industry where if the machine is due maintenance/service it is taken out of use until the maintenance/service has been completed and signed off) as sample size 90% plus of them didn't know their car's maintenance schedule. 99% of people thought all oil is the same and never heard of low ash oil. Some put the same oil as their lawnmowers into their two or three year old diesel!

commited

ianobrien wrote: »

as I want the car to last as long as possible I bought a 141.

I agree with your point re Irish maintenance but you could have bought a 3-4 year old with full service history for much less and known that the car had been serviced. Or go to the UK where the majority buy decent engines with decent spec and get them serviced...

The thing that kills cars in Ireland is tax & maintenance in my opinion, no one really seems to think about depreciation and the common misconception is that old/high mileage cars are ready for the tip which these days they aren't. In fact, a lot of the modern cars are becoming terrifyingly complex so the used car market in 5 years or so could be a bit of a minefield!

goz83

Kevin Irving wrote: »

What car of 20-30 years ago can come close to that?

Three letters : F T O

and soooo much fun to drive too.

kirving

Modern cars are incredibly complex, but as a result, can self diagnose and report problems back to the driver(or buyer!). Fantastic to have the car tell me that the battery old, and that's why it was it wasn't producing a spark when loaded with heater fan and lights in traffic, rather than even having to open the bonnet for an intermittent issue which could be related to any number of things.

MetzgerMeister

I think that if it wasn't for unreliability, forums like this wouldn't exist.

No one would give a sh!t about how do I fix this, how do I fix that, where do I buy this, how does it go on etc. The communities like BMWDriver.net, RX8club.com etc. wouldn't exist because no one would have problems to ask about or people to answer the questions.

Unreliability gives people a reason to get interested in how their car works and it also gives the opportunity for someone to fix it themselves.

Sure, we'd have more money if we didn't have to buy parts for a car but wouldn't it make things boring? Are Toyotas (for the most part) boring because nothing goes wrong with them?

Tzardine

Sobanek wrote: »

.
Mercedes almost went bankrupt with the W123 - it never broke down.

Well they made up for it with the W203 that's for dam sure.

ardmacha

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Unreliability gives people a reason to get interested in how their car works and it also gives the opportunity for someone to fix it themselves.

?

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

EazyD

ardmacha wrote: »

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

I'm sure you do plenty of things with your time that many here would find monotonous/boring, it's all subjective.

Chris_Heilong

braddun wrote: »

reliable cars buy Toyota but pretty boring

mines not Boring

Marcusm

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Spending money regularly is what gets people, be it fuel, tax, servicing, tyres. Depreciation is only realised when you sell the car. It shouldn't affect the running of a car when in your ownership.

An interesting philiosophy; the alternative approach would be to recognise that as soon as the cash goes out the door, most of it will never come back so you should look after the asset as you are already committed to the depreciation.

MetzgerMeister

ardmacha wrote: »

yeah right, some people have a life and don't want to waste it fixing crap cars.

You posted that on a motoring forum. Some of us are motor enthusiasts and prefer doing these things ourselves

jimgoose

I'll tell you what kills cars in Ireland. There are two things, both of which interact with the (possibly uniquely) Irish mindset to send many fine vehicles to an early grave.

1) The NCT. "Sure there's nothing wrong with it, it on'y had d'NCT a few months back!!"

...which is at least tangentially related to...

2) Dealer warranties, including three years free servicing. Paddy buys number-plate-carrier, drives it for three years, gets it serviced while it's "free", then chops it in for the next one on the Lloyds Bowmaker. The car is never serviced again and expires of some sort of automotive cardiac arrest at around 100,000 miles. "Service?? Sure that costs money, an' dere's nothing wrong with it!!"

ardmacha

EazyD wrote: »

I'm sure you do plenty of things with your time that many here would find monotonous/boring, it's all subjective.

I'm sure I do, some would even find them weird. But it is nice to have the choice whether to work on your car rather than being forced to do so because of unreliability (and I've had those too).

Tea 1000

Akrasia wrote: »

20 years ago is 1994. The 1994 toyota corolla 1.3 is absolutely legendary for it's reliability.

That car refuses to die, especially considering that it's been traded at the budget end of the market for a decade now and many of them will have had minimal servicing. It's amazing how much punishment they can take.

Cars have been capable of being consistently reliable for at least 20 years now.

The problem isn't 20 years ago. The problem is the last 10, moreso the last 5 or 6. The lower the CO2 rating of the car, the less time the engine will last is a new rule I reckon! BMW petrols are all muck now. All modern diesels aren't much better.
The golden age is the 90's, and some from early 00's.

Tea 1000

Marcusm wrote: »

An interesting philiosophy; the alternative approach would be to recognise that as soon as the cash goes out the door, most of it will never come back so you should look after the asset as you are already committed to the depreciation.

It's the same with everything. You spend on a holiday, you might as well enjoy it, the cash isn't coming back. TV's, furniture, clothes, all that stuff!
Cars are no different, just more expensive. You have to maintain everything, if you don't it falls to crap.
Some folk get away with it and just move it on before an expensive repair. Which is why so many go to the UK to find a used car!!

commited

commited wrote: »

I agree with your point re Irish maintenance but you could have bought a 3-4 year old with full service history for much less and known that the car had been serviced.

It will also be a 4 year old car, with higher miles, undoubtedly not be perfect on the outside or inside and lack a manufacturers warranty. I cannot wait to be in a position to buy a brand new car, untouched by any other owner.

Viper_JB

Tea 1000 wrote: »

BMW petrols are all muck now.

Maybe the cheapest ones but they still have some great offerings in the M series and the larger engine petrol's are still some of the best driving cars available to the public. There are some fun modern diesels also but most are pretty boring and unreliable granted.

joujoujou

The whole thing is far more complicated than it looks.

It's actually multi-levelled, I'd say.

First thing - average people tend to get rid of old cars because of high(ish) tax, problems with NCT which they fail even on simple to fix issues. And despite the fact old cars are more reliable (see below).

===================

Second thing - newer cars are much more prone to breakdowns. Older cars were simple, and (as already mentioned here) were very easy to repair and keep alive. But manufacturers don't make money on old cars, not even on car parts, because there are plenty of other car parts makers including OEM and non-OEM suppliers making spare parts way cheaper than car manufacturers themselves, and average owner usually buys cheaper.

Manufacturers make money on new cars. Most of their money. And all the new cars are significantly better equipped than old ones, but they're cheaper than their predecessors! The only way to maintain profits is to make car making even cheaper than it used to be. Cost reducing is complicated, so long story short - cheaper materials, cheaper workforce etc.

There's no point (from manufacturer's point of view) to make "long living" cars - their target is, if car survives it's warranty period. Nothing more, nothing less. So, they make them "delicate" on purpose.

================

Third thing - last, but not least - is the whole marketing thing - people want to buy new cars because they've been told to! Yes, all of them TV ads, banners, flyers etc. And average Joe wants to have his brand new and shiny piece of 151 crap earlier than his neighbour, he wants to be the first one with his 151 can of worms on his workplace car park as well.

Amen.

Andrewf20

Recent issue: We have an old 95 Mazda 323, probably worth 300 euro if we were to sell it. It currently wont start and is stuck in a garage. I rang mazda to price a distributor - have a guess at the price - 830eu + VAT. Crazy. Unless I can get half decent looking & cheap parts in the breakers yards, the car will probably have to go for good, sadly.

I also have a 96D motor and in general would be an advocate of keeping an old car going. The amount of nightmare bills ive heard about on more modern machinery is frightening.

Akrasia

joujoujou wrote: »

The whole thing is far more complicated than it looks.

It's actually multi-levelled, I'd say.

First thing - average people tend to get rid of old cars because of high(ish) tax, problems with NCT which they fail even on simple to fix issues. And despite the fact old cars are more reliable (see below).

===================

Second thing - newer cars are much more prone to breakdowns. Older cars were simple, and (as already mentioned here) were very easy to repair and keep alive. But manufacturers don't make money on old cars, not even on car parts, because there are plenty of other car parts makers including OEM and non-OEM suppliers making spare parts way cheaper than car manufacturers themselves, and average owner usually buys cheaper.

Manufacturers make money on new cars. Most of their money. And all the new cars are significantly better equipped than old ones, but they're cheaper than their predecessors! The only way to maintain profits is to make car making even cheaper than it used to be. Cost reducing is complicated, so long story short - cheaper materials, cheaper workforce etc.

There's no point (from manufacturer's point of view) to make "long living" cars - their target is, if car survives it's warranty period. Nothing more, nothing less. So, they make them "delicate" on purpose.

================

Third thing - last, but not least - is the whole marketing thing - people want to buy new cars because they've been told to! Yes, all of them TV ads, banners, flyers etc. And average Joe wants to have his brand new and shiny piece of 151 crap earlier than his neighbour, he wants to be the first one with his 151 can of worms on his workplace car park as well.

Amen.

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. there are some new technologies that are still working out some kinks but while we romanticise old cars, its easy to forget how dirty the air was back when there was leaded petrol and diesels burnt more oil then diesel.

The reliability issues of new cars are offset by their better economy. a 1000 repair bill is horrible if you forget you're spending half as much on petrol.

We still need to demand perfection and reward improved technology to drive everyone forward. Tesla is the supreme example of this.

Tail Docker

Akrasia wrote: »

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. there are some new technologies that are still working out some kinks but while we romanticise old cars, its easy to forget how dirty the air was back when there was leaded petrol and diesels burnt more oil then diesel.

The reliability issues of new cars are offset by their better economy. a 1000 repair bill is horrible if you forget you're spending half as much on petrol.

We still need to demand perfection and reward improved technology to drive everyone forward. Tesla is the supreme example of this.

Umm, my '00 Corolla does a handy 48mpg pretty much always, and it's a petrol..1.4vvti. Never breaks either..pretty much ever. Not too many new petrols doing much better, and deffo not for as long.

joujoujou

Akrasia wrote: »

Robots can make cars cheaper and better than people. robots make our cars now. [...]

Oh yeah, and I am one of them robots making our cars. :mad:

Tea 1000

Viper_JB wrote: »

Maybe the cheapest ones but they still have some great offerings in the M series and the larger engine petrol's are still some of the best driving cars available to the public. There are some fun modern diesels also but most are pretty boring and unreliable granted.

Their 6 cylinder N53 engines are unreliable.