Is Lucifer really evil? Or just a scapegoat

Agnostic1718

Why do we just assume Lucifer is evil? The reason he was thrown out of heaven is because he did not want to bow to mankind as the other angels did, You'd be pretty angry if your mom or dad told you to bow to their pets or siblings and when you didn't they threw you out of the house, My guess is that you'd be sad and angry and maybe even try to mess with the pets or siblings. I am not satanic or anything but i just thought of that, And i am not sure if this is all real because i am an agnostic.

Peregrinus

Agnostic1718 wrote: »

Why do we just assume Lucifer is evil? The reason he was thrown out of heaven is because he did not want to bow to mankind as the other angels did . . .

Where's this coming from? The traditional Judeo-Christian belief on this topic is that Lucifer's rebellion was a refusal to worship God.

neemish

You've obviously never experienced evil/Satan/Lucifer!

Festus

Peregrinus wrote: »

Where's this coming from? The traditional Judeo-Christian belief on this topic is that Lucifer's rebellion was a refusal to worship God.

I believe the premise of Lucifer refusing to worship God's creation - Man - has been used in some science fiction\Fantasy novels

Christian understanding is based among others on Isiah -

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

and Luke

"I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18)

Festus

In the interest in addressing the title is Lucifer\Satan really evil? Yes. He wasn't created that way, he became evil through his own choice and there isn't anything more evil.
He cannot be a scapegoat. We have free will and there are humans who choose evil over good.
I'm curious as to why he would be considered a scapegoat and by whom?

Here's an apt piece of video that presents a Catholic take on evil and it's source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wjl0ZHj7dA

J C

Festus wrote: »

In the interest in addressing the title is Lucifer\Satan really evil? Yes. He wasn't created that way, he became evil through his own choice and there isn't anything more evil.
He cannot be a scapegoat. We have free will and there are humans who choose evil over good.
I'm curious as to why he would be considered a scapegoat and by whom?

Here's an apt piece of video that presents a Catholic take on evil and it's source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wjl0ZHj7dA

Evil has two sources ... Satan and his minions ... and the Human Heart ... because evil entered the World at the Fall of Mankind.

... and the only fully effective antidote to evil is Jesus Christ.

EganTheMan

I think that the level of analysis of the whole Bible is probably unwise.

Thank God, I have a "good solid religion" that keeps me going and makes a lot of sense to me:

1. There is Good and Evil.

2. God created us from nothing and Pride is throwing that all back in God's face.

3. Childlike Love and humility are admired in most religions whereas pride, lust, jealousy, greed, anger etc are seen as "universally bad"

Jesus loves us and really really wants us to "hold tough" through the challenge that human weakness presents

Squeedily Spooch

J C wrote: »

Evil has two sources ... Satan and his minions ... and the Human Heart ... because evil entered the World at the Fall of Mankind.

... and the only fully effective antidote to evil is Jesus Christ.

Which was when exactly?

Peregrinus

Squeedily Spooch wrote: »

Which was when exactly?

'Round about March 3988 BC, if you're a fundamentalist biblical literalist of a particular stripe. But most Christians are a bit less prescriptive. They can't tell you exactly when, and the question doesn't seem especially important to them.

lazybones32

Agnostic1718 wrote: »

Why do we just assume Lucifer is evil? The reason he was thrown out of heaven is because he did not want to bow to mankind as the other angels did, You'd be pretty angry if your mom or dad told you to bow to their pets or siblings and when you didn't they threw you out of the house, My guess is that you'd be sad and angry and maybe even try to mess with the pets or siblings. I am not satanic or anything but i just thought of that, And i am not sure if this is all real because i am an agnostic.

We don't know exactly why he was thrown from Heaven.

In Catholic thought, evil is the absence of good (like how darkness is the absence of light) and has no properties of itself.

Festus

lazybones32 wrote: »

We don't know exactly why he was thrown from Heaven.

Ezieiel 28 16 gives us a clue

"16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones."

lazybones32 wrote: »

In Catholic thought, evil is the absence of good (like how darkness is the absence of light) and has no properties of itself.

I think that assessment is a little too simplisitic and potentially damaging.
Evil opposes good and by that action is more than mere absence.

Catholic Encyclopedia on Evil
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

Cathechism on related topics

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

J C

Peregrinus wrote: »

'Round about March 3988 BC, if you're a fundamentalist biblical literalist of a particular stripe. But most Christians are a bit less prescriptive. They can't tell you exactly when, and the question doesn't seem especially important to them.

As I'm not a 'fundamentalist biblical literalist', I also wouldn't be as prescriptive either ... but it's measured in thousands, rather than millions of years.

Defender OF Faith

Agnostic1718 wrote: »

Why do we just assume Lucifer is evil? The reason he was thrown out of heaven is because he did not want to bow to mankind as the other angels did, You'd be pretty angry if your mom or dad told you to bow to their pets or siblings and when you didn't they threw you out of the house, My guess is that you'd be sad and angry and maybe even try to mess with the pets or siblings. I am not satanic or anything but i just thought of that, And i am not sure if this is all real because i am an agnostic.

That's an interesting question being a student of comparative religion I find in the Quran unlike the bible the story of Satan descention from heaven was described more accurately:

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "I will create a human being out of clay from an altered black mud.

And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."

So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely. Except Satan, he refused to be with those who prostrated.

[God] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" He said, "Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."

[God] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

[Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected

[God] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."

[Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path and I will mislead them all.

Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."

[God] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."
{chapter 7 verses 11-18 & Chap.15 verse 28-35}

From this you can interpret that Lucifer being evil is a very plain assessment of him, he's an arrogant egotistic begin, that blamed God for his own mistakes and instead of repenting like Adam did he choose to challenge god, by taking it to him self to try and lead all mankind astray and into fire. I assume that anyone who's sole purpose in life is to lead you to the hell fire would be considered not only evil but pure evil

J C

Festus wrote: »

In the interest in addressing the title is Lucifer\Satan really evil? Yes. He wasn't created that way, he became evil through his own choice and there isn't anything more evil.

Can you shed any light (no pun intended) on what is going on in this Vatican mass ?
Is the priest really invoking Lucifer?

Festus

J C wrote: »

Can you shed any light (no pun intended) on what is going on in this Vatican mass ?
Is the priest really invoking Lucifer?

No he isn't. It is a bad translation and injudicious out of context editing.

What has been presented is the latter part of the Exsultet from the Praeconium Paschale - the Easter Proclamation.
In this prayer the word the editor, if you can call whoever compiled this that, is focusing on is lucifer - morning star.

You should seek out a good translation, or better yet, learn Latin, and read the whole prayer.

When Christ speaks of the devil he uses the name Satan, not Lucifer.

J C

Festus wrote: »

No he isn't. It is a bad translation and injudicious out of context editing.

What has been presented is the latter part of the Exsultet from the Praeconium Paschale - the Easter Proclamation.

You should seek out a good translation, or better yet, learn Latin.

What is the correct translation?

Festus

Exult, let them exult, the hosts of heaven,
exult, let Angel ministers of God exult,
let the trumpet of salvation
sound aloud our mighty King's triumph!

Be glad, let earth be glad, as glory floods her,
ablaze with light from her eternal King,
let all corners of the earth be glad,
knowing an end to gloom and darkness.

Rejoice, let Mother Church also rejoice,
arrayed with the lightning of his glory,
let this holy building shake with joy,
filled with the mighty voices of the peoples.

(Therefore, dearest friends,
standing in the awesome glory of this holy light,
invoke with me, I ask you,
the mercy of God almighty,
that he, who has been pleased to number me,
though unworthy, among the Levites,
may pour into me his light unshadowed,
that I may sing this candle's perfect praises).

(Deacon: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.)
Deacon: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Deacon: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People: It is right and just.

It is truly right and just,
with ardent love of mind and heart
and with devoted service of our voice,
to acclaim our God invisible, the almighty Father,
and Jesus Christ, our Lord, his Son, his Only Begotten.

Who for our sake paid Adam's debt to the eternal Father,
and, pouring out his own dear Blood,
wiped clean the record of our ancient sinfulness.

These, then, are the feasts of Passover,
in which is slain the Lamb, the one true Lamb,
whose Blood anoints the doorposts of believers.

This is the night,
when once you led our forebears, Israel's children,
from slavery in Egypt
and made them pass dry-shod through the Red Sea.

This is the night
that with a pillar of fire
banished the darkness of sin.

This is the night
that even now throughout the world,
sets Christian believers apart from worldly vices
and from the gloom of sin,
leading them to grace
and joining them to his holy ones.

This is the night
when Christ broke the prison-bars of death
and rose victorious from the underworld.

Our birth would have been no gain,
had we not been redeemed.
O wonder of your humble care for us!
O love, O charity beyond all telling,
to ransom a slave you gave away your Son!

O truly necessary sin of Adam,
destroyed completely by the Death of Christ!

O happy fault
that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer!

O truly blessed night,
worthy alone to know the time and hour
when Christ rose from the underworld!

This is the night
of which it is written:
The night shall be as bright as day,
dazzling is the night for me, and full of gladness.

The sanctifying power of this night
dispels wickedness, washes faults away,
restores innocence to the fallen, and joy to mourners,
drives out hatred, fosters concord, and brings down the mighty.

On this, your night of grace, O holy Father,
accept this candle, a solemn offering,
the work of bees and of your servants' hands,
an evening sacrifice of praise,
this gift from your most holy Church.

But now we know the praises of this pillar,
a flame divided but undimmed,
which glowing fire ignites for God's honour,
a fire into many flames divided,
yet never dimmed by sharing of its light,
for it is fed by melting wax,
drawn out by mother bees
to build a torch so precious.

O truly blessed night,
when things of heaven are wed to those of earth,
and divine to the human.

Therefore, O Lord,
we pray you that this candle,
hallowed to the honour of your name,
may persevere undimmed,
to overcome the darkness of this night.
Receive it as a pleasing fragrance,
and let it mingle with the lights of heaven.
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death's domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/04/a-side-by-side-look-at-exsultet-texts/

J C

Festus wrote: »

...
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death's domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/04/a-side-by-side-look-at-exsultet-texts/

Thanks Festus.

Is this the correct Latin version of the last paragraph?

Flammas eius Lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, Lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen

Is it saying that Jesus Christ has conquered Lucifer, the Devil ... or what is it saying?

Festus

J C wrote: »

Thanks Festus.

Is this the correct Latin version of the last paragraph?

Flammas eius Lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, Lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen

Is it saying that Jesus Christ has conquered Lucifer, the Devil ... or what is it saying?

Not quite - you're missing a chunk. Forgive me, but I prefer to see the whole verse presented.

Orámus ergo te, Dómine,
ut céreus iste in honórem tui nóminis consecrátus,
ad noctis huius calíginem destruéndam,
indefíciens persevéret.
Et in odórem suavitátis accéptus,
supérnis lumináribus misceátur.Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, Lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.R/ Amen

Therefore, O Lord,
we pray you that this candle,
hallowed to the honour of your name,
may persevere undimmed,
to overcome the darkness of this night.
Receive it as a pleasing fragrance,
and let it mingle with the lights of heaven.
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death's domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.


It is a hymn to the paschal candle, a blessing if you will.

Satan has not been conquered yet - that does not happen until the end as prophesied in Revelation, and the hymn does not reference Lucifer.
It references Christ, resurrected, showing us the light of peace and reigning eternal

J C

Festus wrote: »

Not quite - you're missing a chunk. Forgive me, but I prefer to see the whole verse presented.

Orámus ergo te, Dómine,
ut céreus iste in honórem tui nóminis consecrátus,
ad noctis huius calíginem destruéndam,
indefíciens persevéret.
Et in odórem suavitátis accéptus,
supérnis lumináribus misceátur.Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
ille, inquam, Lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
Christus Fílius tuus,
qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.R/ Amen

Therefore, O Lord,
we pray you that this candle,
hallowed to the honour of your name,
may persevere undimmed,
to overcome the darkness of this night.
Receive it as a pleasing fragrance,
and let it mingle with the lights of heaven.
May this flame be found still burning
by the Morning Star:
the one Morning Star who never sets,
Christ your Son,
who, coming back from death's domain,
has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
and lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.


It is a hymn to the paschal candle, a blessing if you will.

Satan has not been conquered yet - that does not happen until the end as prophesied in Revelation, and the hymn does not reference Lucifer.
It references Christ, resurrected, showing us the light of peace and reigning eternal

I don't know what to make of it.
Taking the English translation, it appears to be calling a 'Christ' the 'Morning Star' which is another name for Lucifer (as confirmed in the Latin version).

What is that all about?

HaroldK

Agnostic1718 wrote: »

Why do we just assume Lucifer is evil? The reason he was thrown out of heaven is because he did not want to bow to mankind as the other angels did, You'd be pretty angry if your mom or dad told you to bow to their pets or siblings and when you didn't they threw you out of the house, My guess is that you'd be sad and angry and maybe even try to mess with the pets or siblings. I am not satanic or anything but i just thought of that, And i am not sure if this is all real because i am an agnostic.

Satan whom I believe is the same as Lucifer desired to change the Law of God ...

Genesis 3:1

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 3:3

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Genesis 3:14

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The darkness existed before the light.

Genesis 1:2

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.

Chashak is his name. Just a touch or a glance and then you’re wondering why you can’t get free. Chashak is like candy-coated misery. He’s took the devil, the anointed cherub and filled him with violence.

Ezekiel 28:16

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence,

Chashak gives you feelings that you don’t want to fight. Chashak took control of Lucifer, not with screams of terror but with pride and ambition. With pride and ambition the darkness rooted itself into Lucifer and began rotting his mind and dragging his spirit to rebel against the creator. Once we allow this darkness to enter us it remains in us forever… we become it's unwilling slave.

He is an eater of dreams!

It is not with hands that the dark summons us. It is with pride, dreams of grandeur, and lust. Sin starts in the heart. Lucifer’s heart was lifted up because of his beauty and this corrupted his wisdom.

Isaiah 14:12-14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Pride does not get pleasure out of anything; it only seeks what the next man has... because it is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Pride is one of the many tools Chashak uses against use darkness is a form of incompetence and pride makes us incompetent. Darkness does not leave on its own accord; it remains until the host is destroyed.

This is unnatural darkness, a physical darkness along with misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, and wickedness.
It calls to us !!

In Deuteronomy 5:23 It says that they could hear it's voice.

Deuteronomy 5:23

23 "And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness

In 1 Samuel 2:9 it says they are silenced by the darkness and it is not by strength that one defeats it.

1 Samuel 2:9

9 But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a man prevail.

It's when we passively accept the darkness that we become it's slave and lose our ability to fight, you can't fight the darkness that lives in the world when it also lives in you. We spend so much time in the darkness that we become blind and can no longer tell the difference between the dark and the light.

We do not set out to let darkness in.

Darkness is unspectacular and slowly it begins moving in and we allow it to sleep in our beds and eat at our table. It is inside our mind and soul that this battle between dark and light has been waged and every decision you make will determine rather you remain in control or allow darkness to control you. Hollywood makes movies because they have talent, wisdom, and knowledge… all of which come from God. But because dark lives in them they create movies they sway the way we think.

We are constantly filling our minds and souls with this darkness. Even as a child the television beams images and sounds of violence, sex, and thoughts of grandeur. Music does the same thing to us. It corrupts slowly without us being able to see it. The images of the little sexy cartoon girls have already set in motion the corruption that will change our lives forever.

With lust and desires of the flesh, darkness has rooted itself in us. We are it's unwilling slave.

Darkness is written into human history—money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery—the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.

Have you noticed we start where we end?

Jeremiah 4:23

23 I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

The darkness breaks the ties that bind you to the light. It's his job ...

Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

God also names the darkness which shows ownership of it.

Genesis 1:5

5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Could it be that we are being tested?

In my humble opinion to truly understand how Lucifer fell we only need to look at our own desires.

Festus

J C wrote: »

I don't know what to make of it.
Taking the English translation, it appears to be calling a 'Christ' the 'Morning Star' which is another name for Lucifer (as confirmed in the Latin version).

What is that all about?

I think you are reading too much into it or have spent too long watching sectarian and anti Catholic Youtube videos or reading similar websites.

lucifer has been used as a name for the morning star, Venus (the planet), a brand of matches and some dogs

In this hymn Christ is being refereed to as the Morning Star which never sets.

In Latin "morning star" is lucifer and it is used as a noun, not a name.

In Catholicism the fallen angel is referred to as the Devil or Satan, just as Jesus referred to him as Satan. Lucifer is the name he had before his fall.

AngryHippie

HaroldK wrote: »

We are constantly filling our minds and souls with this darkness. Even as a child the television beams images and sounds of violence, sex, and thoughts of grandeur. Music does the same thing to us. It corrupts slowly without us being able to see it. The images of the little sexy cartoon girls have already set in motion the corruption that will change our lives forever.

Music corrupts us ?

Sexy little cartoon girls ?

This is a very disturbing insight into the arts that you have.
I agree on age based censorship of film and music, as art imitating life will have both the dark and light end of the spectrum, but the alternative is brainwashingly bland drivel without artistic merit or true creative thought, just recreation of the positive, and that imo leads to a lack of understanding of the darkness that lie within all people, should it be unleashed.

Peregrinus

J C wrote: »

I don't know what to make of it.
Taking the English translation, it appears to be calling a 'Christ' the 'Morning Star' which is another name for Lucifer (as confirmed in the Latin version).

What is that all about?

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning “carrier of light” or “light-bearing”. The word turns up five times in the Vulgate. The references are:

Job 11:17
Job 38:32
Ps 109:3 [NB this reference used the Vulgate numbering of the psalms]
Is 14:12
2 Pet 19

In the Authorised Version, these are dealt with as follows:

Job 11:17: “morning”
Job 38:32: “Mazzaroth” [This is an untranslated Hebrew Word whose meaning is uncertain but it probably refers to a particular star or constellation.]
Ps 109:3: “morning”
Is 14:12: “Lucifer son of the morning”
2 Pet 1:19: “day star”

“Lucifer”, in other words, is literally an astronomical reference. With the single possible exception of the reference in Isaiah 14, it’s not used in scripture to refer to Satan/the Devil, who usually gets called “Satan”. (Jesus, remember, doesn’t see "Lucifer" fall like lighting from heaven, but "Satan".) The other four uses are all either positive or literal (i.e. actually references to a star or constellation). According to Strong’s Concordance, the Hebrew word that appears in Is 14:12 means “morning star”, but it can be used figuratively to refer either to the Babylonian king (the Babylonians followed an astrological religion, remember) or to Satan. The sole negative use of “Lucifer” in scripture, Is 14:12, could be read as a reference to either.

However, reading it as a reference to Satan has long been a popular Christian interpretation, and it led to a medieval tradition of treating “Lucifer” as a proper name for the Devil, an alternative to “Satan”. Dante uses the word in this way, as does Milton. This usage was probably coming into English at around the time of the Reformation; Wycliffe translates Job 18:32 (which is a literal reference to an unidentified star or constellation) with the word “Lucifer” and presumably doesn’t expect this to confuse anyone, but the Authorised Version goes for “Mazzaroth”, while the NIV goes for “the constellations”.

But the Exsultet that is being said in the video you link is a very ancient liturgy; it’s pre-medieval. When it was composed, "Lucifer" wasn't a proper name for the devil; it still had its primary sense of “the morning star”. And in this liturgy, “the morning star” doesn’t represent Satan, but Christ.

It's worth adding that the Exsultet is not an exclusively Catholic liturgy: it is preserved also in the liturgies used by Lutheran churches, including the figuarative "morning star" language for Christ.

J C

Festus wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it or have spent too long watching sectarian and anti Catholic Youtube videos or reading similar websites.

lucifer has been used as a name for the morning star, Venus (the planet), a brand of matches and some dogs

In this hymn Christ is being refereed to as the Morning Star which never sets.

In Latin "morning star" is lucifer and it is used as a noun, not a name.

In Catholicism the fallen angel is referred to as the Devil or Satan, just as Jesus referred to him as Satan. Lucifer is the name he had before his fall.

Leaving out your (incorrect) speculation in your first sentence about me, I would like to thank you for the rest of your answer.

The use of the word Lucifer would appear to be an unfortunate choice / co-incidence of wording ... but the video is certainly wrong that it is something new or 'post-modern'.

Festus

J C wrote: »

Leaving out your (incorrect) speculation in your first sentence about me, I would like to thank you for the rest of your answer.

My apologies - it was late and these are the only places I can find this absurd notion being promulgated. The speculation was primarily towards the source and not you personally.

J C wrote: »

The use of the word Lucifer would appear to be an unfortunate choice / co-incidence of wording ... but the video is certainly wrong that it is something new or 'post-modern'.

There is nothing wrong with the word lucifer as a noun but people get the wrong idea if it is used as the name Lucifer.

Some people are taking advantage of the fact that knowledge of Latin has fallen off of late.

XVII

Believing that Lucifer is "evil" is the same as thinking that Snowden is a criminal.
For instance, when an individual betrays a corporation, and shares information with the public, he will automatically be proclaimed as "evil" traitor, who needs to go to the jail (according to the US law).
Maybe Lucifer knew something and/or wanted to share something with humankind, that he wasn't supposed to (that's just an example really, could be million other things). All we know is God's / Bible side of the story

Festus

XVII wrote: »

Believing that Lucifer is "evil" is the same as thinking that Snowden is a criminal.
For instance, when an individual betrays a corporation, and shares information with the public, he will automatically be proclaimed as "evil" traitor, who needs to go to the jail (according to the US law).
Maybe Lucifer knew something and/or wanted to share something with humankind, that he wasn't supposed to (that's just an example really, could be million other things). All we know is God's / Bible side of the story

Which Lucifer are we talking about now?

If you are talking about the supernatural being now known as Satan well the answer is that he did want to share something humankind was not supposed to know about. The knowledge of good and evil. I have to admit that this is the Bible side of the story.

Let me ask you, do you have a child and if not imagine you do. Do you want your child to know evil?
From what age do you want your child to know of evil?
Would you consider it evil if your child discovered evil before they were at the age you decided they were old enough to know about it?

How evil would you consider it if it was a stranger who introduced your child to evil at a very young age?

What would you do to this person if you caught them?

XVII

Which Lucifer are we talking about now?

If you are talking about the supernatural being now known as Satan well the answer is that he did want to share something humankind was not supposed to know about. The knowledge of good and evil. I have to admit that this is the Bible side of the story.

Let me ask you, do you have a child and if not imagine you do. Do you want your child to know evil?
From what age do you want your child to know of evil?
Would you consider it evil if your child discovered evil before they were at the age you decided they were old enough to know about it?

How evil would you consider it if it was a stranger who introduced your child to evil at a very young age?

What would you do to this person if you caught them?

I'm talking about specific being, who has been called "Satan" by someone else. In a same way, as Snowden has been proclaimed as national traitor by US government.

Now, to answer your questions: in my opinion it's incorrect to introduce morality in this topic. We all know that morality is based on the principles of any specific society, and whatever is "evil" in Europe, can be the opposite in Africa.

So, in order to avoid confusion, let me rephrase your questions according to my metaphor described above, and for the better understanding for both of us:

Let me ask you, do you have a child and if not imagine you do. Do you want your child to know about surveillance programs?

As an American parent, loyal to the government, I would be probably concerned about telling my child about Snowden's actions, and NSA'a secrets.
My government has said that Snowden is traitor (i.e. "evil"), and I don't want my child to follow this way.
As an EU / any other country parent though, I wouldn't care if my child learns about this on the internet.

From what age do you want your child to know of surveillance programs?

US: I'm not sure if I should tell my child about them. What will they tell in his/her school, if they find out that I tell my child about such things?
EU/Other: Any age. As soon as he gets old enough to understand it, I don't mind.

Would you consider it bad if your child discovered surveillance programs before they were at the age you decided they were old enough to know about them?

EU/Other: No, it's absolutely fine.

How bad would you consider it if it was a stranger who introduced your child to surveillance programs at a very young age?

US: I'd like my child to avoid talking to strangers about such things. We may go to jail.
EU/Other: Again, that's fine.

What would you do to this person if you caught them?

US: I should probably call the police?
EU/Other: I don't care much.

Now, it's my turn to ask you questions:
- do you really think that someone who told us about surveillance programs should go to jail? Why?
- would you prefer not to know about surveillance programs?
- how would you feel if your government is hiding something from you?
- how would you feel if your government proclaims someone as "evil", who has told you about programs, which spy on you?

Festus

XVII wrote: »

I'm talking about specific being, who has been called "Satan" by someone else. In a same way, as Snowden has been proclaimed as national traitor by US government.

The analogy swap didn't work for me. Are you saying Snowden is evil and the American Government/NSA is a scapegoat or that the US GOV/NSA is evil and Snowden is the scapegoat ?

I have an opinion on that but I fear exploring it here may derail the discussion.

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Oh, and, I think you are wrong on the morality thing. It could well be a function of evolutionary biology. or our conscience. or both. and it's innate.

Festus

AngryHippie wrote: »

Music corrupts us ?

Sexy little cartoon girls ?

This is a very disturbing insight into the arts that you have.
I agree on age based censorship of film and music, as art imitating life will have both the dark and light end of the spectrum, but the alternative is brainwashingly bland drivel without artistic merit or true creative thought, just recreation of the positive, and that imo leads to a lack of understanding of the darkness that lie within all people, should it be unleashed.

When I read HaroldK's post one name jumped to mind. Miley Cyrus. A few others did as well later on but she's good enough an example in this case.

I'm not sure what age limit is imposed on her but she is disturbing, especially for trained musicians.