Ireland vs Australia match thread, Saturday 22nd Nov. KO 4:30PM

Mahatma Geansai

Vivian Dazzling Hillbilly wrote: »

I largely agree with your post but this is absolute nonsense. You may or may not have noticed but they scored as a result of it. Some of the tackling was certainly poor.

Offload = They get the ball and score. Even if we lay some blame on other for the score, they still get the ball.
No offload = We keep the ball

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which one is a better call. You're complaining about people being unfair to Zebo, then go to the exact opposite end of the spectrum and try blame everyone else for stuff he's responsible for. There's a middle ground.

Overall he played well, not sure if he'll keep Trimble out of the team, I'm happy enough with whoever Schmidt goes for.

The Aussie's scored because the tackling was poor. If we had a decent scramble, it would have been a turnover of possession, but nothing more. It was a reasonably low-risk, high-reward play. I understand that we are playing a very conservative attacking game where players appear to be discouraged from off-loading- even passing to a degree - but I still think it was the right decision.

As it happened, an offload that would have resulted in a break for Sexton, turned into a try due to some terrible scramble defense. There are numerous players more culpable and made much larger mistakes, in that instance, than Zebo.

degsie

What about Kearney's attempted drop kick. Man was I willing for that ball to go over, sooo close...

thomond2006

degsie wrote: »

What about Kearney's attempted drop kick. Man was I willing for that ball to go over, sooo close...

I was sure it had gone over, so much so that I actually missed it hitting the post!

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

So, Joe rates him better than Gilroy?
Felix Jones could have done a job there as well which bearing the criticism he gets, you would expect him to be there.

Yes joe rates him better than Gilroy

But there is still Bowe, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Earls, McFadden and even Dave Kearney who there is no evidence Zebo is ahead of, and honestly based on what I've seen id have most of those ahead of Zebo

Micky Dolenz

A lot of tough rugby to be played between now and February. Bit pointless suggesting starters for games that are over 2 months away. No doubt players in form will get the nod.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

So, Joe rates him better than Gilroy?
Felix Jones could have done a job there as well which bearing the criticism he gets, you would expect him to be there.

Yes. He's probably ahead of Gilroy. What point of yours do you think this proves?

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

How is this relevant to the match yesterday?

I suppose its as relevant to yesterday's game in claiming that Zebo will be dropped for last season's 'Best Player of the Six Nations'.

Any back who doesn't have a kicking game is disadvantaged.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

I suppose its as relevant to yesterday's game in claiming that Zebo will be dropped for last season's 'Best Player of the Six Nations'.

Any back who doesn't have a kicking game is disadvantaged.

You have literally just made that up right now.

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

Any back who doesn't have a kicking game is disadvantaged.

So is a back who complicates easy decisions.

degsie

awec wrote: »

You have literally just made that up right now.

Why is a Mod trying to instigate an argument? How about leading by example?

jm08

awec wrote: »

Yes. He's probably ahead of Gilroy. What point of yours do you think this proves?

That Zebo has got the opportunity to nail down a starting spot and with his left boot, work rate and excellent defence against Southern Hemisphere opposition, he is likely to hold onto his place.

jm08

awec wrote: »

You have literally just made that up right now.

Well you are codding yourself if you think a back doesn't need a kicking game.

errlloyd

Julian Savea and Bryan Habanna are both useless at kicking.

bleg

Anybody know why Sexton is so conservative with his penalties from the hand? There were a few poor ones yesterday but one that stood out to me was when we had a penalty in the Australian half and the lineout was outside their 22... I think Best threw it in crooked anyway but still...

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

Well you are codding yourself if you think a back doesn't need a kicking game.

Not every back,Trimbles kicking game is sufficient for his position.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Well you are codding yourself if you think a back doesn't need a kicking game.

Really? How many of our backs right now have a kicking game worth talking about?

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Well you are codding yourself if you think a back doesn't need a kicking game.

A 9,10 and 15 need a kicking game because it's a part of their central role on the field. For centres and wingers it's probably more of a bonus than a necessity.

I'd expect a good coach to be able to set up a team where an outside backs' kicking deficiency isn't exposed. Say if you have Ma'a Nonu or SBW at 12 who aren't kickers, you could bring in your kicking 15 at second receiver to use as an auxiliary kicker.

Celly Smunt

thomond2006 wrote: »

A 9,10 and 15 need a kicking game. For centres and wingers it's probably more of a bonus than a necessity.

This.

A wingers kicking game revolves around finding touch for the most part.

jm08

awec wrote: »

Really? How many of our backs right now have a kicking game worth talking about?

Most of them can clear a ball at least, unlike Trimble who needs to get it to someone else to clear the danger.

Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Zebo can all chip and chase or kick along the line and have the pace to put pressure on the opposition (unlike Dave Kearney for instance who isn't pacy enough).

Teferi

Zebo had a good game yesterday but I don't think his performances over the series will keep any of the injured wingers out of the side when they come back. I think D Kearney was as good if not better in the 6N too.

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Most of them can clear a ball at least, unlike Trimble who needs to get it to someone else to clear the danger.

Can you support this statement? Has there been any particular kicking howlers from Trimble? Has there even been a situation where Trimble using another kicker has cost Ireland/Ulster?

Like it or not it's probably down the list in necessary skillsets for wingers.

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

Most of them can clear a ball at least, unlike Trimble who needs to get it to someone else to clear the danger.

Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Zebo can all chip and chase or kick along the line and have the pace to put pressure on the opposition (unlike Dave Kearney for instance who isn't pacy enough).

What's the problem with shifting the ball to Kearney to kick and chase? If under pressure Trimble has always been more than capable of finding touch.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Most of them can clear a ball at least, unlike Trimble who needs to get it to someone else to clear the danger.

Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Zebo can all chip and chase or kick along the line and have the pace to put pressure on the opposition (unlike Dave Kearney for instance who isn't pacy enough).

I wouldn't say any of the above have a kicking game worth talking about. They can kick a ball, but it's Murray, Sexton and Kearney who are our only backs who have a particular skill when putting boot to ball.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

1. Kicking is a basic skill that all backs should have.
2. Did Trimble win any Man of the Match Awards in the 6Ns?

Come on jm...

Based on the fact that zebo has a left boot then he's ahead of the current irish player of the year.

When has zebo used this fabled left boot to gain us 60 metres against Australia or put a great kick behind the Australian back 3 to leave us deep in their 22?

He played fine yesterday..not world beating but not poorly. To suggest he'd keep last years player of the year out because "he has a left boot" is silly tbh...

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

A 9,10 and 15 need a kicking game because it's a part of their central role on the field. For centres and wingers it's probably more of a bonus than a necessity.

I'd expect a good coach to be able to set up a team where an outside backs' kicking deficiency isn't exposed. Say if you have Ma'a Nonu or SBW at 12 who aren't kickers, you could bring in your kicking 15 at second receiver to use as an auxiliary kicker.

Brian O'Driscoll used to kick a fair bit. If your wingers can kick, it takes pressure off the fullback. What about chip and chases?

All the All Blacks have a super passing and offloading game which means they can get away with it. The one thing Doug Howlett struggled with for Munster was his kicking game. He hadn't needed it up to then.

errlloyd

Actually forget my earlier post about Savea and Habanna, arguably every first tier nation has at least one starting winger who can't really kick.

Savea, Habanna, Speight, Lamont, Cuthbert (and North), Rokodunguni (or May).

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Most of them can clear a ball at least, unlike Trimble who needs to get it to someone else to clear the danger.

Fitz, Earls, Bowe, Zebo can all chip and chase or kick along the line and have the pace to put pressure on the opposition (unlike Dave Kearney for instance who isn't pacy enough).

Dave Kearney isn't pacy?

The one thing DK has is speed....

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

Brian O'Driscoll used to kick a fair bit. If your wingers can kick, it takes pressure off the fullback. What about chip and chases?

All the All Blacks have a super passing and offloading game which means they can get away with it. The one thing Doug Howlett struggled with for Munster was his kicking game. He hadn't needed it up to then.

Chip and chases down the wing are more of a hindrance if anything as it all depends on the bounce of the ball as to whether it was worth giving away the line out. Centres can get away with it due to being in the centre of the field. Apart from the odd grubber and finding touch kicking should rarely come into a wingers game.

In fact,where has this amazing left boot of Zebo's been over the past few matches?

mfceiling

errlloyd wrote: »

Actually forget my earlier post about Savea and Habanna, arguably every first tier nation has at least one starting winger who can't really kick.

Savea, Habanna, Speight, Lamont, Cuthbert (and North), Rokodunguni (or May).

Yeah but zebo can kick and apparently trimble can't, so eh, ehm, eh...what was the argument again!!

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Brian O'Driscoll used to kick a fair bit. If your wingers can kick, it takes pressure off the fullback. What about chip and chases?

All the All Blacks have a super passing and offloading game which means they can get away with it. The one thing Doug Howlett struggled with for Munster was his kicking game. He hadn't needed it up to then.

And yet Howlett was always selected in the first choice team when fit for Munster!

On another note on kicking, one concern I have going forward is the amount of kicking Ireland engage in specifically garryowens and box kicks. I worry that on the day the kick and chase tactic doesn't work we won't have a plan B. The results and performances of the autumn have been fantastic but I hope there is more variety in Ireland's locker to come. Ireland have the backs to do damage if given a chance to attack the opposition.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can you support this statement? Has there been any particular kicking howlers from Trimble? Has there even been a situation where Trimble using another kicker has cost Ireland/Ulster?

Like it or not it's probably down the list in necessary skillsets for wingers.

There have been no particular howlers - that could be down to him rarely if ever kicking.

What do you think the reason is for leaving Zebo on the left wing for Munster and putting Earls on the right wing considering that Earls usually played on the left wing?

Up against a blitz defence (such as the Welsh defence), would you not like all your players to be able to chip and chase to get in behind the defence (or at least keep their defence honest)?

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

And yet Howlett was always selected in the first choice team when fit for Munster!

On another note on kicking, one concern I have going forward is the amount of kicking Ireland engage in specifically garryowens and box kicks. I worry that on the day the kick and chase tactic doesn't work we won't have a plan B. The results and performances of the autumn have been fantastic but I hope there is more variety in Ireland's locker to come. Ireland have the backs to do damage if given a chance to attack the opposition.

Box kicks are a pet hate of mine. The majority of the time we just cough up possession without any realistic challenge.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

And yet Howlett was always selected in the first choice team when fit for Munster!

On another note on kicking, one concern I have going forward is the amount of kicking Ireland engage in specifically garryowens and box kicks. I worry that on the day the kick and chase tactic doesn't work we won't have a plan B. The results and performances of the autumn have been fantastic but I hope there is more variety in Ireland's locker to come. Ireland have the backs to do damage if given a chance to attack the opposition.

The second half today seemed to indicate we do have a plan B. Despite the Aussie bench we slowed things down well.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

And yet Howlett was always selected in the first choice team when fit for Munster!

On another note on kicking, one concern I have going forward is the amount of kicking Ireland engage in specifically garryowens and box kicks. I worry that on the day the kick and chase tactic doesn't work we won't have a plan B. The results and performances of the autumn have been fantastic but I hope there is more variety in Ireland's locker to come. Ireland have the backs to do damage if given a chance to attack the opposition.

Howlett had everything else so he could get away with it. His kicking did improve actually when he came to Munster.

With teams like Australia, you need to play territory because they will punish you if you make the slightest error. Defences are so good now that you are not going to be able to bash your way up the middle. The one area that needs improvement from Ireland is the lineout though. Schmidt should get Jerry Flannery to coach our hookers with their throwing.

awec

awec wrote: »

Box kicks are a pet hate of mine. The majority of the time we just cough up possession without any realistic challenge.

Yeah but looks at some of our phases in possession during the first half. We were moving back more than when Australia had possession.

jm08

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Chip and chases down the wing are more of a hindrance if anything as it all depends on the bounce of the ball as to whether it was worth giving away the line out. Centres can get away with it due to being in the centre of the field. Apart from the odd grubber and finding touch kicking should rarely come into a wingers game.

In fact,where has this amazing left boot of Zebo's been over the past few matches?

Chip and chase isn't kicking the ball out. Its chipping it over the heads of the defenders so that they have turn around and you have a 50-50 chance of retrieving the ball.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The Aussie's scored because the tackling was poor. If we had a decent scramble, it would have been a turnover of possession, but nothing more. It was a reasonably low-risk, high-reward play. I understand that we are playing a very conservative attacking game where players appear to be discouraged from off-loading- even passing to a degree - but I still think it was the right decision.

As it happened, an offload that would have resulted in a break for Sexton, turned into a try due to some terrible scramble defense. There are numerous players more culpable and made much larger mistakes, in that instance, than Zebo.

Facepalm. I await your howls of outrage the next time a player you don't like is so careless with possession.

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

Chip and chase isn't kicking the ball out. Its chipping it over the heads of the defenders so that they have turn around and you have a 50-50 chance of retrieving the ball.

On the wing you have to bring the touchline into account,for a centre yes maybe 50/50. For a winger you're battling the line and the opposition so it makes almost no sense to kick and chase

jm08

Vivian Dazzling Hillbilly wrote: »

Facepalm. I await your howls of outrage the next time a player you don't like is so careless with possession.

Sexton was screaming for the ball. Should he have ignored him?

Carlsburg don't do trolling...

Celly Smunt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Carlsburg don't do trolling...

But Carlsberg might.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Sexton was screaming for the ball. Should he have ignored him?

Is that a real question?

jm08

Celly Smunt wrote: »

On the wing you have to bring the touchline into account,for a centre yes maybe 50/50. For a winger you're battling the line and the opposition so it makes almost no sense to kick and chase

If you have a kicking game you will be able to do it without putting the ball into touch. In fact, instead of being bundled into touch with possession, you have a better chance of pushing the opposition into touch in possession, so winning the lineout.

If you have a good kicking game you can also kick the ball in a straight line parallel to the line which will probably also result in the opposition putting it into touch so winning a lineout.

thomond2006

Just watching the game back. If you ignore the missed tackles from Ireland Australia's third try (Phipps' second) is absolutely superb! Some brilliant touches from Speight and Phipps in the buildup.

Tobyglen

jm08 wrote: »

Sexton was screaming for the ball. Should he have ignored him?

Did Sexton get concussed at some stage? He started off the game looking very composed and his decision making was spot on. By the 2nd half he was all over the place.

Synode

jm08 wrote: »

Sexton was screaming for the ball. Should he have ignored him?

Yes. He should have brought it into contact.

The nonsense Zebo fans spout is mind numbing. He's a good player, and I hope he continues improving. But at the moment there's at least 4 players ahead of him if all are fully fit.

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

If you have a kicking game you will be able to do it without putting the ball into touch. In fact, instead of being bundled into touch with possession, you have a better chance of pushing the opposition into touch in possession, so winning the lineout.

If you have a good kicking game you can also kick the ball in a straight line parallel to the line which will probably also result in the opposition putting it into touch so winning a lineout.

Right,now bring bounce into play...

SaveOurLyric

vienne86 wrote: »

He ran out down the tunnel just as they lined up, ran back in after Michael D had done his circuit, pulling on shorts. Someone beside me noticed he then looked very flushed in the face, turned and bent over; Kearney looked concerned. We assumed he wasn't well, and while it wasn't his best game, he didn't play like a guy who wasn't in decent health.

I thought he did look out of sorts. Not injured, but like a guy who was sick. Definitely a far more subdued game for him than SA. By no means did he let us down, but he didnt really add what we would be expecting from one of our handful of world class players and key playmaker. Whats more, it wasnt that he attempted stuff and failed, as in just having a bad game. He just didnt seem to take on as much as usual.
I would guess some minor illness.

jm08

Vivian Dazzling Hillbilly wrote: »

Is that a real question?

Yes. He could have ignored him or he could have ignored the instruction to pass the ball.

The real error in that move was the failure of the defence system. Phipps made it through 3 Irish defenders to run in the try.

Tobyglen

thomond2006 wrote: »

Just watching the game back. If you ignore the missed tackles from Ireland Australia's third try (Phipps' second) is absolutely superb! Some brilliant touches from Speight and Phipps in the buildup.

2 great inside passes but Kearney's missed tackle was inexcusable. I can understand Sexton's missed tackle because he was flat footed but Kearney has to make that tackle. It's not the first time he has showed defensive weaknesses.