Ireland vs Australia match thread, Saturday 22nd Nov. KO 4:30PM

Synode

Everyone else's fault but Zebo eh?

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. He could have ignored him or he could have ignored the instruction to pass the ball.

"Joe, Jonny told me to do it"

jm08

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Right,now bring bounce into play...

There would be no bounce if you kick the ball along the ground, parallel to the touch line. Much better than being bundled into touch in possession.

Most wingers are skilled enough to do that.

case885

Wasn't Zebo criticised for taking the ball into contact too much against Georgia and now that he tried an offload that didn't work hes seen as a brainless show off?
If Trimble regains 6n form he will start imo but i think its ridiculous writing Zebo's contribution off and thinking hes just there to make up the numbers as there was no one else ala the way Kearney was treated in the 6n.
Where is POC pulling these performances out of for a 35 year old, i hope he does a Matfield and keeps at this level for another few years.

jm08

Synode wrote: »

Everyone else's fault but Zebo eh?

As opposed to everything being Zebo's fault, eh?

former legend

Just watched the game back again.

I didn't cop this until now but there were 14 other guys out there wearing very similar jerseys to Zebo.

Can anyone clarify?

KevinK

Swiwi. wrote: »

I'll cry if this thread ends up about Zebo. C'mon people, there're zillions of other things to discuss!

Can't see this happening..

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

"Joe, Jonny told me to do it"

Its a team effort. If someone calls for the ball, I'd imagine you would presume that something is on.

I don't think Schmidt will be dropping Zebo (or Johnny) for that pass. He will be having words with Best, Toner & Kearney though.

LEIN

jm08 wrote: »

Sexton was screaming for the ball. Should he have ignored him?

Are you saying Zebo has no brain and can't make his own choices?

DDC1990

Weird. Consensus at the Aviva was that Zebo had a great game.

He took a risk with the offload, but the touch and subsequent ricochet was massively unlucky. Then you'd have to hope the guys make those tackles on Phipps.

I don't fault Zebo for the attempt, but it was poorly executed and led to a try. He'll hold his hand up and acknowledge his mistake but it wasn't down to his mistake alone. Missed tackles afterwards were also criminal.

Thing is if it had gone to hand Sexton had a clear run through.

After that he was exceptional. He made what should have been a try saving tackle just before the Aussie 2nd try. Not only that but he got hands and feet between Phipps and the ball to slow it down enough so support got across.

He was very sensible with the ball after that and made some great cover tackles. He was in the firing line all game as Australia's game plan focussed on getting Speight 1 on 1 with Zebo on first phase ball.

After the Autumn internationals I'd have Bowe and Zebo as starting Wingers depending in what form Trimble comes back in. If Trimble is this years 6N Irish Player of the year Trimble then I'd have him in and Zebo on the bench. If not then Zebowe it is on the wings. It'll be up to Kearney, McFadden, Earls, Gilroy to fight to take the place off the two of them, just like Zebo had to wait his chance to get the place this time round.

I also have a suspicion that Joe might try to mold Earls into a centre again considering how stacked with talent we are on the wings. If anyone can succeed in doing it its Joe.

Tobyglen

jm08 wrote: »

Its a team effort. If someone calls for the ball, I'd imagine you would presume that something is on.

I don't think Schmidt will be dropping Zebo (or Johnny) for that pass. He will be having words with Best, Toner & Kearney though.

Was an integral part in costing 2 tries through poor defence and people still bitching about Zebo. Jesus wept. 4 players culpable for first try.


So was there any positives in this game? You would swear we lost by 20 pts.

For me Henshaw, POC, POM were standout. Lots to work on and this game was by far the best game of the AI thus far. First half had huge intensity.

Pudsy33

The only thing Zebo did wrong was a 50/50 pass that could easily have worked out.

Everything else was solid. He smashed Kirundrani early one and he caused everyone else problems all day. His kick chase was solid.

I really don't see the point of arguing over him and other wingers for the 6n with a tonne of European games between now and then.

former legend

former legend wrote: »

Just watched the game back again.

I didn't cop this until now but there were 14 other guys out there wearing very similar jerseys to Zebo.

Can anyone clarify?

Yes, our replacement hooker. When Best went off, I didn't like the way Cronin ran onto the field. It was just too slow and I think gave the Aussies a real boost.

Can't understand why Casey isn't on the Bench. PO'C tried to take the blame saying he told Cronin to run in at that pace but I think he is lying in front of the fans and team mates just to be sound.

jm08

LEIN wrote: »

Are you saying Zebo has no brain and can't make his own choices?

Nope. He is a team player.

Rightwing

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A lot of tough rugby to be played between now and February. Bit pointless suggesting starters for games that are over 2 months away. No doubt players in form will get the nod.

I agree. Schmidt has matured since he got the job.

cameramonkey

jm08 wrote: »

Its a team effort. If someone calls for the ball, I'd imagine you would presume that something is on.

I don't think Schmidt will be dropping Zebo (or Johnny) for that pass. He will be having words with Best, Toner & Kearney though.

have you never played sports of any kind? Calling for the ball means many things. One reason to call for the ball is to give your opposition defenders something to think about. If you call for the ball they now have to look at you and the guy with the ball, its a pretty basic ploy. I am not saying that Sexton was doing that but his run was never going to take him clear because there were too many defenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuKrE553F8&feature=youtu.be

I have slowed the move down to 10% and you get a good idea of what has happened with Zebos attempted off load and the missed tackles. Toner over runs the attacker then tries to make amends and impends Kearney.

Celly Smunt

jm08 wrote: »

There would be no bounce if you kick the ball along the ground, parallel to the touch line. Much better than being bundled into touch in possession.

Most wingers are skilled enough to do that.

Are you watching rubgy or soccer? How can you possibly say bounce wouldn't affect a ball being hit along the ground?

Mahatma Geansai

Toner really had a game to forget alright. He looked painfully slow when chasing for the first try, and he was largely at fault for a further 10 Australian points in the first have.

He has enough credit in the bank that one poor game won't hurt him too much, but there are a number of lads chomping at his heels for the starting berth. It looked like he struggled with the pace of the game throughout and his lack of agility in open play was shown up.

MJohnston

Scattered thoughts:

I thought Zebo solidified his place well yesterday, and showed the right amount of defensive intensity, he faded into the collective the right amount instead of his somewhat (very marginally) selfish play in the SA and Georgia games. I was a big doubter of him before the game, but I think he showed his worst and his progress exceptionally well. The bad offload was a collective mistake from 4-5 players, and although I think he has something to learn from that, he isn't solely to blame either.

To compare, I think D'Arcy might well have solidified his non-starter status. I think he was only in the 15 anyway due to Payne's injury, but I think it's time to start considering other players as default in that spot too.

Something definitely seemed off with one or both of Sexton and Murray, because there was a less intelligent predictability to our attack that wasn't present in the South Africa game where we were unpredictable and punishing.

I thought Australia did very well in the second 20 minutes in getting Ireland to forget their intelligent gameplan and try to play like them, with all the looseness and sloppy flair that it brought. At some point in that 20 we needed someone in the team to be calming heads and bringing things back to plan, but it felt like it ran away from us until half time, at which point presumably they had a stern reminder of that fact. Not too bad though, I think if this had been 2-3 years ago, that exuberance would have resulted in about 10 penalties given away.

I also disagree with the assessment that we were under the gun in the last 10/15 minutes. Sure, as a spectator I felt immensely anxious, but I think Australia were the ones feeling the real pressure, which was displayed in the fact that they were losing metres instead of gaining them, making sloppy passes and handling errors, and committing penalties. Just because we were throwing everything we had at defense doesn't mean that we were on the back foot.

case885

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, our replacement hooker. When Best went off, I didn't like the way Cronin ran onto the field. It was just too slow and I think gave the Aussies a real boost.

Can't understand why Casey isn't on the Bench. PO'C tried to take the blame saying he told Cronin to run in at that pace but I think he is lying in front of the fans and team mates just to be sound.

tumblr_meyjjvQpZv1rnr47go8_250.gif

jm08

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Are you watching rubgy or soccer? How can you possibly say bounce wouldn't affect a ball being hit along the ground?

If you kick it low along the ground (like this kick from ROG for Howlett's try v USAP).

about 2.38min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdD7L0fR-q8

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Christ. The Zebo bashing returns. It doesn't matter how well he plays, it isn't possible to put in a good enough performance to win around his rabid critics.

I thought he had a very good game yesterday. His defense was brilliant and a return of 10 tackles is a pretty great indication of his huge work-rate, which some posters ignorantly continue to gloss over. The offload was definitely the right decision, and he was unlucky that it didn't come off due to an Aussie hand. You can't blame him - although some will try - for the three Irish lads who waved Phipps through to the line; If we need to blame anyone for a conceded try, fingers need to be pointed at Sexton and Toner for Phipps' second.

The offload was at best a 50-50 ball. Given how Ireland are now playing, the ground is our friend. Hail mary passes are not in this irish teams thinking really. It was the one black mark on Zebo's performance for me as other then that I thought he was excellent. I wasnt convinced up until yesterday about him. There has been a vast improvement in his performance level. I dont think Trimble will walk straight back into the team in 6n if Zebo maintains that sort of level but its the sort of problem that JS will like to have all over the park.



As for other arguments in the thread about the 2nd row, Toner was fairly quiet but that happens from time to time. POC/Toner ARE first choice and the back up to them is between McCarthy, Henderson, Tuohy and Foley with Ryan when he returns from injury.

SaveOurLyric

MJohnston wrote: »

Scattered thoughts:

I thought Zebo solidified his place well yesterday

What place do you mean by that. Ireland's first choice left wing this weekend, or Ireland's first choice left wing with 5 other wingers back fit and playing ?

SaveOurLyric

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

POC's 79th minute tackle.

Didn't want to post up the actual gif as it might screw with mobile users.

Not to mention the poor mobile phones themselves. I can see a few iphones and Samsungs smashed into the ground.

jm08

cameramonkey wrote: »

have you never played sports of any kind? Calling for the ball means many things. One reason to call for the ball is to give your opposition defenders something to think about. If you call for the ball they now have to look at you and the guy with the ball, its a pretty basic ploy. I am not saying that Sexton was doing that but his run was never going to take him clear because their were too many defenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuKrE553F8&feature=youtu.be

I have slowed the move down to 10% and you get a good idea of what has happened with Zebos attempted off load and the missed tackles. Toner over runs the attacker then tries to make amends and impends Kearney.

Zebo had eye contact with Sexton. Zebo was faced away from Phibbs coming across who Sexton should have warned him about. From where Zebo is, the pass is on because even if the pass doesn't get Sexton, he will be able to tackle the player. The players who can see Phibbs coming across are Best, Toner, Kearney and Sexton.

MJohnston

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo had eye contact with Sexton. Zebo was faced away from Phibbs coming across who Sexton should have warned him about. From where Zebo is, the pass is on because even if the pass doesn't get Sexton, he will be able to tackle the player. The players who can see Phibbs coming across are Best, Toner, Kearney and Sexton.

I know what they were going for with Zebo delaying the pass to try and suck in more defenders, but in hindsight I would have preferred him to have made the pass to Sexton on his first or second step (about :22 or :23 into that video) after receiving the ball, rather than waiting.

cameramonkey

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo was faced away from Phibbs coming across who Sexton should have warned him about.

Are you for real? how could he warn him in that split second?

The pass was a risky pass with little chance that Sexton would break through.
That is the problem. The attempted pass should not have been made.

Apart from that I think Zebo did OK.

jm08

cameramonkey wrote: »

Are you for real? how could he warn him in that split second?

The pass was a risky pass with little chance that Sexton would break through.
That is the problem. The attempted pass should not have been made.

Apart from that I think Zebo did OK.

The pass would have been fine except for some fine work by Nick Phipps who come in from behind to grab the ball. Without him, the ball would have just gone to ground with both Zebo and Sexton ready to pounce on it.

The major error though was the defence debacle for that try. 3 of them could not put a hand on Phipps.

DDC1990

jm08 wrote: »

The pass would have been fine except for some fine work by Nick Phipps who come in from behind to grab the ball. Without him, the ball would have just gone to ground with both Zebo and Sexton ready to pounce on it.

The major error though was the defence debacle for that try. 3 of them could not put a hand on Phipps.

I agree with you in principal, but Zebo should not be absolved of all blame (not sure if this is what you are doing, but its coming across that way).

Zebo was right IMO to make the pass, but his excecution of the pass wasn't great and led to the turnover.

What happened afterwards, is on the defence, but Zeebs still made the error to begin with.

It was good work by Phipps as well, but when making a risky pass like that it has to go to hand.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

The pass would have been fine except for some fine work by Nick Phipps who come in from behind to grab the ball. Without him, the ball would have just gone to ground with both Zebo and Sexton ready to pounce on it.

The major error though was the defence debacle for that try. 3 of them could not put a hand on Phipps.

Mistake 1 was Zebo trying a pass with an aussie player between him and the target.

Mistake 2 was the poor defence thereafter.

The poor defence does not excuse the 50-50 offload were Zebo can see the player between him and the target of the pass.

ahgowan

funny thread almost all debating one pass in the 80 mins which was part of one of THREE tries the aussies scored. anything else happen good or bad for eg. line out darts last few mins when we needed to keep the ball in their terrority. im not sure but i think zebo made 2 tackles in about 10 seconds during last 5 mins that saved certain try or did i imagine that

Piliger

ahgowan wrote: »

funny thread almost all debating one pass in the 80 mins which was part of one of THREE tries the aussies scored.

No. 98% of the thread is NOT about that.

jm08

DDC1990 wrote: »

I agree with you in principal, but Zebo should not be absolved of all blame (not sure if this is what you are doing, but its coming across that way).

Zebo was right IMO to make the pass, but his excecution of the pass wasn't great and led to the turnover.

What happened afterwards, is on the defence, but Zeebs still made the error to begin with.

It was good work by Phipps as well, but when making a risky pass like that it has to go to hand.

I'm not blaming anyone really as you are not going to beat the top teams with risk free rugby. At least it happened early in the game, so didn't impact on the result.

If Ireland are to progress, it can't base its entire game on risk free, conservative rugby based on having a good defence.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I'm not blaming anyone really as you are not going to beat the top teams with risk free rugby. At least it happened early in the game, so didn't impact on the result.

If Ireland are to progress, it can't base its entire game on risk free, conservative rugby based on having a good defence.

true but there is different levels of risk and trying to pass the ball through an opponent is too high a risk

Awkward Badger

He probably should have held onto it but you have to give him some credit for trying to create something too. It doesn't matter a great deal anyway the defence after that should have been better. Irelands set defence was very good but the scramble defence didn't seem great.

Tobyglen

ahgowan wrote: »

funny thread almost all debating one pass in the 80 mins which was part of one of THREE tries the aussies scored. anything else happen good or bad for eg. line out darts last few mins when we needed to keep the ball in their terrority. im not sure but i think zebo made 2 tackles in about 10 seconds during last 5 mins that saved certain try or did i imagine that

Pathetic really. He defended like a demon-especially up against a monster winger, other established players like Darcy, Kearney defended like drains and not a word said. It's as if a certain segment of fans would like to see him fail.

Pudsy33

Tobyglen wrote: »

Pathetic really. He defended like a demon-especially up against a monster winger, other established players like Darcy, Kearney defended like drains and not a word said. It's as if a certain segment of fans would like to see him fail.

Well that's not true. Plenty have lambasted Darcy, myself included.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

true but there is different levels of risk and trying to pass the ball through an opponent is too high a risk

I think it was exceptional work from Phipps more than anything else. The guy came from nowhere to grab the ball and got through 3 Irish defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him.

NoelJ

Tobyglen wrote: »

Pathetic really. He defended like a demon-especially up against a monster winger, other established players like Darcy, Kearney defended like drains and not a word said. It's as if a certain segment of fans would like to see him fail.

Kearney I thought had a great game.

efb

I'd like to see this match are their highlights on any station?

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

I think it was exceptional work from Phipps more than anything else. The guy came from nowhere to grab the ball and got through 3 Irish defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him.

He hardly came from no where.. He was right there when Zebo tried the off load. Poor decision but he'll learn from it. Overall he played well but not well enough to put himself in front of Bowe, Trimble or Kearney. A fit Fitz would get ahead of him too. Possibly Earls too.

CatFromHue

efb wrote: »

I'd like to see this match are their highlights on any station?

They're on youtube and you could check the RTE player.

Molester Stallone II

clsmooth wrote: »

He hardly came from no where.. He was right there when Zebo tried the off load. Poor decision but he'll learn from it. Overall he played well but not well enough to put himself in front of Bowe, Trimble or Kearney. A fit Fitz would get ahead of him too. Possibly Earls too.

Earls is probably the one back I can't wait to have back fit and competing again. He offers much more overall in both his attacking, and defensive game than any other back (imo in case anyone gets the hump)

Pudsy33

CatFromHue wrote: »

They're on youtube and you could check the RTE player.

Where on youtube? Searched but came up empty.

CatFromHue

Earls would be able to put serious pressure on Trimble if he gets back fit and on form.

Munster could end up using him in the centre though.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I think it was exceptional work from Phipps more than anything else. The guy came from nowhere to grab the ball and got through 3 Irish defenders who couldn't lay a finger on him.

he was standing directly between zebo and sexton looking at zebo. He didnt appear from nowhere

CatFromHue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N5UUo2hrZ8

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Where on youtube? Searched but came up empty.

jm08

efb wrote: »

I'd like to see this match are their highlights on any station?

RTE player has it.

Mod Edit: Info on bypassing geo-blocks deleted. Do not post info on how to bypass legal restrictions on tv content

They were defending quite narrow at the time so if the ball was given right away there might have been an opportunity.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

he was standing directly between zebo and sexton looking at zebo. He didnt appear from nowhere

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuKrE553F8&feature=youtu.be

No he wasn't. Look at 0.32 to see him running across to claim the ball, get in behind Sexton, run through 3 defenders to score the try.

Its Speight who is between Zebo and Murray.