Ireland vs Australia match thread, Saturday 22nd Nov. KO 4:30PM

clsmooth

Molester Stallone II wrote: »

Earls is probably the one back I can't wait to have back fit and competing again. He offers much more overall in both his attacking, and defensive game than any other back (imo in case anyone gets the hump)

He offers pure speed in attack, and a nose for the try line but not sure about his defensive game. And is he physical enough to contribute and make an impact at ruck time? (something we know is vital for Schmidt)

twinytwo

The aul ticker gets enough of a doing over with munster laterly.... if Ireland could stop refrain from such things in the future that would be awesome:pac:

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuKrE553F8&feature=youtu.be

No he wasn't. Look at 0.32 to see him running across to claim the ball, get in behind Sexton, run through 3 defenders to score the try.

Its Speight who is between Zebo and Murray.

there was an aussie player directly between zebo and sexton. Zebo tried the 50-50 ball. He shouldnt have. Who that player was is irrelevant.

Molester Stallone II

clsmooth wrote: »

He offers pure speed in attack, and a nose for the try line but not sure about his defensive game. And is he physical enough to contribute and make an impact at ruck time? (something we know is vital for Schmidt)

I dont think anyone can doubt his defensive game and tenacity in the tackle

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuKrE553F8&feature=youtu.be

No he wasn't. Look at 0.32 to see him running across to claim the ball, get in behind Sexton, run through 3 defenders to score the try.

Its Speight who is between Zebo and Murray.

Looks like Foley no? The offload wasnt on in this case. And don't get me started on how slow Murray was at the base of that ruck

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

He offers pure speed in attack, and a nose for the try line but not sure about his defensive game. And is he physical enough to contribute and make an impact at ruck time? (something we know is vital for Schmidt)

Murray Kinsella seems to think he does. Some great videos of his rucking.

http://www.thescore.ie/munster-analysis-toulouse-heineken-cup-1403571-Apr2014/

Earls Phase 3

Munster work the ball wide to the left, and when the ball comes back into midfield, we see Earls pop up at the ruck on phase seven. This time, it’s a hugely impressive contribution from the right wing, as he blasts Joe Tekori right off the ball.

At 6ft 6ins and 122kg, the 26-times capped Samoan would probably not expect to be cleared out of a solid jackaling position by a 90kg back, but Earls’ decision-making is superb.

The Munster wing accelerates into the contact, aware that Tekori’s bulk will prevent him [Earls] from going off his feet and conceding a penalty. Earls dips his right shoulder to get a nice shot in on Tekori’s ribs, while wrapping his left arm over the flanker’s neck.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

there was an aussie player directly between zebo and sexton. Zebo tried the 50-50 ball. He shouldnt have. Who that player was is irrelevant.

Yes. And that player in the middle (Foley or Speight) would not have scored as they were well covered with Irish defenders. It was Phipps coming across out of Zebo's vision line (since he was looking in Sexton's direction), who made a great grab and run. Sexton maybe was a fraction too forward as well.

Why don't you just admire great piece of skill from Phipps?

Clearlier

Henshaw's autumn has probably been the biggest plus for Ireland. No matter how sure you are that a guy has what it takes you can't be sure until he's actually on the pitch. It'll be at least another World Cup before he hits his peak but the massive gap that appeared in the midfield with BOD's retirement has been filled. It's a pity that Payne was injured in the first game - another game with the two of them together could have marked the start of a pretty good partnership. D'arcy gets through a lot of work and he's great at making bad ball usable but we really needed a bit more go forward from him today. That said the Aussie's line speed was phenomenal and none of the forwards were making any headway at close quarters either. I guess we could have done with Healy or SOB creating some havoc.

Best looked a little rusty but I expect that he'll be back up to full speed come the 6 nations. 3 different hookers won't have made Easterby's job easier in the lineout but on the whole during the series we struggled (Georgia doesn't count) and that along with the scrum are areas that could handle a bit of improvement.

I don't get the issues with Murray and Sexton's kicking. Most of it was very well placed and gained us an advantage. I hope this changes but at the moment our kicks are probably our strongest weapon.

I think that the reason Zebo excites so much comment is because some of his contributions are outstanding and at the highest level (so some people think that that's his level) and some of his contributions are fairly calamitous (whch brings out those who think that you're only as good as the weakest part of your game). He did a lot of good things yesterday, probably the best I've seen him play in an Irish shirt (although his time at fullback was pretty impressive too) but he also made a calamitous error. It was a terrible decision for a couple of reasons and I'd be astonished if he were to disagree himself.

The first level to look at is the game situation. We're 17 points up with 20 minutes gone and we've got the ball in our own half. We've already got a match winning lead so any kind of half decent game management tells us to not take too many chances and force the aussies to claw their way back.

The second level is the execution of the offload. At no point during the tackle does and offload look on. There's always an Aussie to close to being in the way for him to chance it but still he attempts it. There's a worrying failure to use his brain there. There's no problem going into a tackle situation and looking for an offload, there is a problem going into a tackle situation with your mind already made up.

I think that Zebo has a higher ceiling than Kearney, Earls and Trimble. The ceiling is the reason to persist with him and I think that he has made decent improvements in his all round game during the autumn internationals. If he can sort out his decision making he could be a great, if not he'll be another Earls.

P.S. As punishment for the offload Zebo should be sentenced to play with a rugby league team for a month. They don't take a chance with offloads unless it's the last tackle.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

Murray Kinsella seems to think he does. Some great videos of his rucking.

http://www.thescore.ie/munster-analysis-toulouse-heineken-cup-1403571-Apr2014/

After that I'd consider putting him in at 7 with SOB and Henry out at the moment.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. And that player in the middle (Foley or Speight) would not have scored as they were well covered with Irish defenders. It was Phipps coming across out of Zebo's vision line (since he was looking in Sexton's direction), who made a great grab and run. Sexton maybe was a fraction too forward as well.

Why don't you just admire great piece of skill from Phipps?

It was a terrible piece of decision making by Zebo. I think we all agree on that. Phillips took the try superbly after the initial error left the Irish defence flat footed.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

Yes. And that player in the middle (Foley or Speight) would not have scored as they were well covered with Irish defenders. It was Phipps coming across out of Zebo's vision line (since he was looking in Sexton's direction), who made a great grab and run. Sexton maybe was a fraction too forward as well.

Why don't you just admire great piece of skill from Phipps?

It was foley who intercepted the ball to begin with. Zebo did not need to throw the 50-50 ball. Ireland had field position and possession. Zebo tried to be too clever and Ireland ended up under their own posts. I dont care how good Phipps was to get there because it was an ireland player who gave a needless easy turnover chance to the aussies.

CatFromHue

It wasn't terrible, it just wasn't very good.

clsmooth

aimee1 wrote: »

It was foley who intercepted the ball to begin with. Zebo did not need to throw the 50-50 ball. Ireland had field position and possession. Zebo tried to be too clever and Ireland ended up under their own posts. I dont care how good Phipps was to get there because it was an ireland player who gave a needless easy turnover chance to the aussies.

I think everyone would be in agreement with that, even Zebo. Schmidt will definitely have a field day with that one. We were lucky to he 17-0 up and at the start of the game, but if that happens 50 mins in during a tight game, that's the losing of it.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

It was a terrible piece of decision making by Zebo. I think we all agree on that. Phillips took the try superbly after the initial error left the Irish defence flat footed.

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

I think everyone would be in agreement with that, even Zebo. Schmidt will definitely have a field day with that one. We were lucky to he 17-0 up and at the start of the game, but if that happens 50 mins in during a tight game, that's the losing of it.

On 'The Business' yesterday morning (RTE1 radio), when talking about management, leadership, motivation etc. they told a story about Schmidt in his early Leinster days doing his video analysis. Darcy had thrown a poor pass to BOD which resulted in a turnover.

Instead of having a go at Darcy for the poor pass, he said to BOD that he should have made a greater effort to get the pass. BOD admitted that he should have done better.

basillarkin

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

Clearlier

basillarkin wrote: »

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

You need to give him a bit of time. BOD had a few quiet games before he settled in at international level and there was a lot more space to exploit then than there is now. I don't know what level Henshaw will reach but he's certainly an international quality centre.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

He was calling for it before it was cut off. Zebo held on too long; when he had the outside man fixed was when he should have passed, but instead he tried to get past two defenders before attempting the offload.

It's split second stuff, but when you're playing off a cut out pass, the ball has to move very quickly to the outside man if you're going to make the overlap work. We'll never know if it would have worked, but there were metres to be gained had the pass been made earlier.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

You keep saying this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, but if you actually watch what happens and stop desperately trying to blame anyone and everything else, you can see Sexton is calling for the pass long before it actually comes, because the pass was actually on then. This isn't some static situation where the pass is either on or it isn't, because opposition players actually move about the pitch. When Zebo got the ball the pass was on. When Zebo threw his pass the pass wasn't on.

basillarkin

Clearlier wrote: »

You need to give him a bit of time. BOD had a few quiet games before he settled in at international level and there was a lot more space to exploit then than there is now. I don't know what level Henshaw will reach but he's certainly an international quality centre.

I hear Ya but I don't think he is an international quality centre yet, granted he played at 12 and 13 against two of the better teams in World Rugby and showed his versatitly at both positions but I don't think he has the required flair needed to be a top class 13. He certainly has the potential though.

wp_rathead

basillarkin wrote: »

How many line breaks did henshaw make yesterday? Doesn't look like a lad that can get through a gap or make a defender miss on a regular basis.

According to the ESPN stats only 3 Clean Line Breaks for Ireland- 2 for Bowe and 1 for Zebo.
Henshaw did beat 2 players- with only Zebo (on 3) beating more defenders.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

If it is terrible decision making, I think Sexton has to share the blame since he was screaming for the pass.

Although you said that the lineout problems v SA were Cronins fault and not POC's fault who was screaming the calls..

jm08 wrote: »

On 'The Business' yesterday morning (RTE1 radio), when talking about management, leadership, motivation etc. they told a story about Schmidt in his early Leinster days doing his video analysis. Darcy had thrown a poor pass to BOD which resulted in a turnover.

Instead of having a go at Darcy for the poor pass, he said to BOD that he should have made a greater effort to get the pass. BOD admitted that he should have done better.

Clearly then Sexton should have made more of an effort to reach his hands around Foley to collect the speculative off load.

Henshaw is doing his basics and making his reads in defence, which is actually far more important than making linebreaks for him at the moment. And tbh with D'Arcy having such a mediocre game inside him he never really had any time or space on the ball.

Clearlier

basillarkin wrote: »

I hear Ya but I don't think he is an international quality centre yet, granted he played at 12 and 13 against two of the better teams in World Rugby and showed his versatitly at both positions but I don't think he has the required flair needed to be a top class 13. He certainly has the potential though.

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Clegg

Clearlier wrote: »

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Do you mean in BoD's last few seasons as a pro? If so then I'd agree with you. He was getting done for pace and conceded lots of yards in the tackle. BoD from 23-30 though is a completely different matter. Was the most ferocious tackler I've ever seen from an outside back. Read his channel perfectly and didn't concede ground. Henshaw has a long way to go yet.

basillarkin

BOD could read the game like no other, one of the best defenders in the game, knew when to hold, when to push and when to shoot up out of the line

Clearlier

Clegg wrote: »

Do you mean in BoD's last few seasons as a pro? If so then I'd agree with you. He was getting done for pace and conceded lots of yards in the tackle. BoD from 23-30 though is a completely different matter. Was the most ferocious tackler I've ever seen from an outside back. Read his channel perfectly and didn't concede ground. Henshaw has a long way to go yet.

Could have been clearer there!

I was comparing them at an equivalent stage in their international careers, i.e. when BOD had just broken through. At that stage he didn't have any fear (I sometimes thought that D'arcy may have been genuinely intimidated) but his judgement was a bit suspect. He subsequently went on to redefine the role of the 13 as a defender but right at the start of his career he was no great shakes.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

He was calling for it before it was cut off. Zebo held on too long; when he had the outside man fixed was when he should have passed, but instead he tried to get past two defenders before attempting the offload.

It's split second stuff, but when you're playing off a cut out pass, the ball has to move very quickly to the outside man if you're going to make the overlap work. We'll never know if it would have worked, but there were metres to be gained had the pass been made earlier.

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

BoardsMember

I wonder how our play in attack will change over the next while, during the 6 nations, and then in the lead up to the world cup. While it was a great win, and a fantastic defensive effort, you couldn't say that we played too well in attack. I wonder will the ambition for off loads increase, will we take more ball wide early, does Joe see our approach to attacking play becoming more varied and ambitious. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to watch us play like this, and continue to get good results. But I wonder will we be easier to design a game plan against as people see us. I'm no authority of the game and probably a lot of the technical stuff goes over my head, I know Joe "desings" clever game plans to help us beat oppositions, but it seems all to be based on a core of simple things done well. I wonder will that evolve over the next 4-6 games.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

And you're saying that Sexton should have known that Zebo was going to make a poor decision and gift the ball to the Aussies.

clsmooth

BoardsMember wrote: »

I wonder how our play in attack will change over the next while, during the 6 nations, and then in the lead up to the world cup. While it was a great win, and a fantastic defensive effort, you couldn't say that we played too well in attack. I wonder will the ambition for off loads increase, will we take more ball wide early, does Joe see our approach to attacking play becoming more varied and ambitious. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to watch us play like this, and continue to get good results. But I wonder will we be easier to design a game plan against as people see us. I'm no authority of the game and probably a lot of the technical stuff goes over my head, I know Joe "desings" clever game plans to help us beat oppositions, but it seems all to be based on a core of simple things done well. I wonder will that evolve over the next 4-6 games.

Good point. I was thinking the same. I'd be of the thinking that he'll try to expand the game plan to involve more off loading etc but first off he's concentrating on getting the basics nailed, and once that's second nature (it must be close to that now) he'll look at adding in some other parts rather than overloading the players with too much (some say the reason for losing last year to Australia, too much information). He'll want to peak for the WC, and not before hand like happened in 07. Historically he has a good record of getting Leinster to peak for the big knock out games in Europe. In Joe we trust.

Clearlier

clsmooth wrote: »

Good point. I was thinking the same. I'd be of the thinking that he'll try to expand the game plan to involve more off loading etc but first off he's concentrating on getting the basics nailed, and once that's second nature (it must be close to that now) he'll look at adding in some other parts rather than overloading the players with too much (some say the reason for losing last year to Australia, too much information). He'll want to peak for the WC, and not before hand like happened in 07. Historically he has a good record of getting Leinster to peak for the big knock out games in Europe. In Joe we trust.

It's not just offloading. We were very short of ideas in attack once we had gone past a few phases at the weekend, a lot of that was simply due to the Aussies hitting us behind the gain line so we couldn't generate momentum but I think it's risky to rely on having church and SOB available to carry come the world cup, we need to think of a few other strategies to make ground if we might not have the carriers capable of bashing their way through.

Fireball07

While yesterday was a great win, the defending in the first half cannot ever be repeated. Australia were excellent but we were falling off tackles and missing them all over the shop.

Iirc, I saw Best, POM, Ruddock, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy and Henshaw all miss tackles that you'd be expecting them to get. Most of those players did have really good games, but we were all over the place in the first half. It's great that we turned it around and put in a monumental defensive effort 2nd half but considering we were 17-0 up; we did need to calm it down. It just shows that we're still well off where we need to be and that's encouraging in itself.

I think every player contributed something important and showed why they were in the team, even those who did poor things also. I think it would be harsh to blame Zebo for the 1st try, the offload was on, and we missed 3 tackles in the immediate aftermath. He also saved a certain try with a brilliant shoot-up tackle. Bowe did the same, and turned that into an intercept try. Small margins though. Foley missed easy kicks aswell. Kearney has never been a great tackler one-on-one but made a few great tackles yesterday. Missed a couple too but it's never been his strong point. He and Henshaw were class.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

Now? Are you confusing me with somebody else?

I am saying he should have passed earlier, yes. No 'now' about it. His other alternative was to take the tackle and recycle, but the play was clearly to exploit the narrowness of the defence.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Yes he was. Since he had a full view of Phipps coming in (and he overran Phipps as well), perhaps he could have held back a bit to be able to tackle Phipps if the pass went astray.

So now you are saying that the pass should have been made earlier!

Wait now...what should Sexton have done here as he was the one at fault.

1. Called too early for the pass
2. Shouldn't have called for the pass
3. Wasn't in position to receive the off load
4. Over ran and made it too difficult for Zebo
5. Held back the run "just incase Zebo made a balls of the pass and Phipps took it"
6. Should have been watching the ball better
7. Should have been watching the opposition better
8. Should have ran a better line for Zebo

Just a bit confused as to what Sexton did wrong in the split second of the game to allow Zebo's pass not to stick.

Maybe Joe should drop Sexton to teach him a lesson about when to shout and when not to shout on the pitch.

The Aviva is weird. You could here a pin drop for most the game.

twinytwo

Fireball07 wrote: »

While yesterday was a great win, the defending in the first half cannot ever be repeated. Australia were excellent but we were falling off tackles and missing them all over the shop.

Iirc, I saw Best, POM, Ruddock, Murray, Sexton, D'Arcy and Henshaw all miss tackles that you'd be expecting them to get. Most of those players did have really good games, but we were all over the place in the first half. It's great that we turned it around and put in a monumental defensive effort 2nd half but considering we were 17-0 up; we did need to calm it down. It just shows that we're still well off where we need to be and that's encouraging in itself.

I think every player contributed something important and showed why they were in the team, even those who did poor things also. I think it would be harsh to blame Zebo for the 1st try, the offload was on, and we missed 3 tackles in the immediate aftermath. He also saved a certain try with a brilliant shoot-up tackle. Bowe did the same, and turned that into an intercept try. Small margins though. Foley missed easy kicks aswell. Kearney has never been a great tackler one-on-one but made a few great tackles yesterday. Missed a couple too but it's never been his strong point. He and Henshaw were class.

It was a 50/50 pass.... it didnt happen, another day he might have got it away... people need to more on

I can only assume Zebo's attempt at an offload for their first try has been discussed for 20 pages with a particular sect blaming everyone but him... Kearney should have tackled Phipps but I don't know how can you defend that offload. There was an Australian player directly in the way.

Molester Stallone II

twinytwo wrote: »

.. people need to more on

That typo almost ended up being spot on

freyners

Clearlier wrote: »

Given your last comment I'm guessing that you're saying that he hasn't demonstrated the required flair rather than he hasn't got it? I don't see him play for Connacht - that may be a good guide as to his strengths and weaknesses in attack. OTOH he may not have the quality inside him there that BOD had at Leinster in his early days (Farrell and Horgan IIRC).

IMO he's at a much higher level than BOD was as a defender although I suspect that a lot of this is down to the guidance that he has received from BOD. In the end if we have nothing else he's a decent size who can do a bit of damage on a crash ball. Hope he has more than that - don't really want to go down the Maggs/Henderson route (although Henderson was a better ball player than he was given credit for). The kick against South Africa hints at a certain quality that could serve him well.

Couple of examples i could give casting back through a few games, but this should give a decent indicator of what he can do. Hes well able to break a line but hes well able to manufacture one as well. (starts around 5.05)

must every rugby thread turn into a zebu thread I'm nearly afraid to look at the super rugby thread at this stage :mad:

pickarooney

Any extended highlights around?

former legend

Zaylee Damaged Violist wrote: »

must every rugby thread turn into a zebu thread I'm nearly afraid to look at the super rugby thread at this stage :mad:

Damn zebus!

former legend

former legend wrote: »

Damn zebus!

:D:D

Ardillaun

That Kearney drop goal attempt opens up something else for defences to worry about. I remember Warwick doing something similar years ago. How many of those ultra long ones has Rob put through the posts?

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Wait now...what should Sexton have done here as he was the one at fault.

1. Called too early for the pass
2. Shouldn't have called for the pass
3. Wasn't in position to receive the off load
4. Over ran and made it too difficult for Zebo
5. Held back the run "just incase Zebo made a balls of the pass and Phipps took it"
6. Should have been watching the ball better
7. Should have been watching the opposition better
8. Should have ran a better line for Zebo

Just a bit confused as to what Sexton did wrong in the split second of the game to allow Zebo's pass not to stick.

Maybe Joe should drop Sexton to teach him a lesson about when to shout and when not to shout on the pitch.

I'm not out pointing the finger at either Zebo or Sexton. Stuff happens. Its what happens in the intermediate aftermath of the incident is what defines them and there are 3 people there who made a complete bags of the defence.

jacothelad

former legend wrote: »

Damn zebus!

IT'S ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU THE HUMP.

Bridge93

Haven't got to look back yet but for Australias third try i think it was, Speight appeared to breeze past someone incredibly easy before flicking the ball back inside behind his back. Anyone know who it was or if im remembering things that werent there!

shuffol

Bridge93 wrote: »

Haven't got to look back yet but for Australias third try i think it was, Speight appeared to breeze past someone incredibly easy before flicking the ball back inside behind his back. Anyone know who it was or if im remembering things that werent there!

That was Kearney, was the most disappointing part from the game for me. It really was a shocking attempt at a tackle.

BoardsMember

Ardillaun wrote: »

That Kearney drop goal attempt opens up something else for defences to worry about. I remember Warwick doing something similar years ago. How many of those ultra long ones has Rob put through the posts?

The most famous is the one against Leicester in the Heineken Cup Final 2009 in Edinburgh. I was there, I actually nearly had a stroke I'd say...