Use of firearms in a school musical

JimPatTom

I'm posting here in the hope of getting more accurate and reliable information regarding this topic.

Long story short, our secondary school's Transition Year students are putting on a musical, which mentions at various points in the play the appearance of Rifles and Shotguns etc. In the hope of making the play as realistic and as true to detail as possible, our director is contemplating the use of actual firearms on stage.

Obviously, they won't be loaded, and they won't be used to fire anything (not even blanks), several actors have to appear carrying them though.

What is the law regarding this? Can 15 and 16 year olds legally carry an unloaded firearm for the purpose of a musical on stage? Do any permission forms have to be filled out? (Do the gardaí have to be present? :pac: )

Thanks

Witcher

Get airsofts and forget about firearms.

OU812

Guns in a school??

That sounds like absolutely nothing will go wrong & everyone will be fine with it...

JimPatTom

OU812 wrote: »

Guns in a school??

That sounds like absolutely nothing will go wrong & everyone will be fine with it...

I am aware that it does sound dodgy from the word go. Guns and schools don't mix well whatsoever. I was just seeing if it really is completely out of the question/no way/are you well kind of impossible

Icaras

JimPatTom wrote: »

I am aware that it does sound dodgy from the word go. Guns and schools don't mix well whatsoever. I was just seeing if it really is completely out of the question/no way/are you well kind of impossible

Ask yourself whats the worst that can happen with using real unloaded guns, and then what the worst that can happen using replica/airsoft guns, then its basically deciding what level of risk you are happy taking.

For me I would prefer the play not be completly immersive by using replicas that the other worst case scenario....

juice1304

you need a licence to be in possesion of a firearm outside of an authorized range, i wouldnt use a real firearm when you can simply get an airsoft which will look the same.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

JimPatTom wrote: »

I'm posting here in the hope of getting more accurate and reliable information regarding this topic.

Long story short, our secondary school's Transition Year students are putting on a musical, which mentions at various points in the play the appearance of Rifles and Shotguns etc. In the hope of making the play as realistic and as true to detail as possible, our director is contemplating the use of actual firearms on stage.

Obviously, they won't be loaded, and they won't be used to fire anything (not even blanks), several actors have to appear carrying them though.

What is the law regarding this? Can 15 and 16 year olds legally carry an unloaded firearm for the purpose of a musical on stage? Do any permission forms have to be filled out? (Do the gardaí have to be present? :pac: )

Thanks

You cannot carry a gun without a license for a start.

I don't think it's illegal to carry a gun in a public place, but I don't think it's very wise to bring a live gun into a school. You can get some amazing air soft guns. Would be a much better idea

BattleCorp

You need a licence to possess a gun so no, I wouldn't use real guns in the musical as the kids wouldn't be licenced.

As has been said already, get somebody to loan you some airsoft guns. They don't need licences and are almost identical to the real guns.

badaj0z

I do not think any school event which uses guns(real or toys) is a good idea. All it takes is an "anti" observer to contact the media about the "glorification" of firearms, the "spillover from violent computer games" or whatever else takes their fancy and the organisers will be on the defensive. Best avoid.

Sparks

Section 2(4)(f) technically covers you, as one of the circumstances where you do not require a firearms licence to possess a firearm is:

(f) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition by a person taking part in a theatrical performance or rehearsal or in the production of a cinematograph film for the purpose of the performance, rehearsal or production, being a performance, rehearsal or production the person in charge of which stands authorised in that behalf under this section,

However, you would need permission from the local superintendent and you'd have to source them and so on. Frankly, Strider nailed it here - go buy airsoft replicas. They'll be a lot cheaper than the real thing, you don't have any safety issues at all and you can just walk into a shop and buy them, no licencing issues to worry about.

clivej

I would suggest that you use gun shapes cut with a bandsaw and painted black. They can look very realistic and this is what I have seen used in other stage productions.

You may well be able to get the outlines you need from the Internet or from a real firearm if a person will give you some from their own firearms.

OzCam

Airsoft. Most of the replicas cannot be distinguished from real firearms from any more than a metre away. That's the whole point. No licenses required - all you have to do is not display them in public - in this case outside of the performance space (which I assume will be ticketed?).

If it's for a once-off performance, someone might be persuaded to loan you what you need. If you need them for a while, you can buy what you need and sell them afterwards here.

I would strongly recommend getting an experienced airsofter to act as a safety advisor for the duration, or at least give you a briefing beforehand. S/he will show you how to treat them as real, and what to do or not. You can also consider having internal parts such as motors/gearboxes/springs removed to render them inoperable and prevent anyone messing during rehearsals etc.

If you treat them at all times as real and observe the same safety rules you won't go wrong.


How you manage the public reaction to "Schools & Guns OMG!!!" is a different matter entirely.

JimPatTom

Thanks for all your replies everybody. Guns matter is still under debate between directors, organisers and school management; Two inoperable replicas (all firing pins and chambers put beyond use and barrels capped) have been sourced however, what looks like the most likely arrangement will be passing the aforementioned replicas around backstage from actor to actor when needed to give the illusion of many guns, but in reality two or three.

Thanks again

dazed+confused

Good solution, 100% looks the part without any of the danger of a working firearm.

tikkahunter

http://www.mccullaghsports.ie/product_item.php?cat_name_product=Kids+Toy+Shotgun&record_id=286&category_level1_id=2&category_level2_id=53

J C

Sparks wrote: »

Section 2(4)(f) technically covers you, as one of the circumstances where you do not require a firearms licence to possess a firearm is:


However, you would need permission from the local superintendent and you'd have to source them and so on. Frankly, Strider nailed it here - go buy airsoft replicas. They'll be a lot cheaper than the real thing, you don't have any safety issues at all and you can just walk into a shop and buy them, no licencing issues to worry about.

Even at one Joule, airsoft, would not be appropriate in a school musical situation, where there is the possibility of 'messing about' with these guns.
In any event, I think you would also need authorisation from the local Garda Superintendent to have airsoft guns in a school play.

Section 40 of the 2009 Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act would seem to apply.

40.—The Act of 1990 is amended by the insertion of the following
sections after section 9 (as amended by section 39 of this Act):
“Possession of
a realistic
imitation
firearm in a
public place.
9A.—(1) Where a person, without lawful authority
or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving
which shall lie on him or her), has a realistic imitation
firearm with him or her in any public place,
that person shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this
section shall be liable:
(i) on summary conviction to a fine not
exceeding \5,000 or to imprisonment
for a term not exceeding twelve
months or to both, or
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or
to imprisonment for a term not
exceeding five years or to both.
(3) In this section “public place” includes any
highway and any other premises or place to which
at the material time the public have or are permitted
to have access, whether on payment or otherwise,
and includes any club premises and any train,[2009.] [ Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous No. 28.]
Provisions) Act 2009.
vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons
for reward.
(4) In this section and in sections 9B to 9G
“realistic imitation firearm” means a device that
appears to the ordinary observer so realistic as to
make it indistinguishable from a firearm.
Authorisation
of use of
realistic
imitation
firearms at
specified
venues,
theatres, etc.
9B.—(1) The Superintendent of any district
may authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage
of realistic imitation firearms in that district
at a specified location during such period, not
exceeding one year, as may be specified in the
authorisation.
(2) A Superintendent shall not grant an authorisation
under this section unless he or she is satisfied
having regard to all the circumstances
(including the provision made or to be made for
the storage of realistic imitation firearms to which
the authorisation (if granted) would relate and the
supervision of their use) that the possession, use or
carriage, as the case may be, of realistic imitation
firearms in pursuance of the authorisation will not
endanger the public safety or the peace.
(3) Where it is proposed to grant an authorisation
under this section in respect of a specified
location, the authorisation shall be granted to the
person in charge of the specified location and
where there is a contravention of a condition
imposed in relation to the grant of such an authorisation
and the contravention is proved to have
been committed with the consent or approval of
or to have been facilitated by any neglect on the
part of the person to whom the authorisation is
granted, that person shall be guilty of an offence
under this Act.
(4) A Superintendent may impose in relation to
the grant of an authorisation under this section
such conditions (if any) as he considers necessary
to prevent danger to the public and, where a condition
is imposed, it shall be specified in the authorisation.
(5) An authorisation under this section may be
revoked at any time by the Superintendent of the
District in which it is granted.
(6) A person who contravenes a condition
imposed in relation to the grant of an authorisation
under this section shall be guilty of an
offence and shall be liable on summary conviction
to a fine of up to \5,000 or up to 12 months
imprisonment.

clivej's idea of wooden cut-outs might be the simplest and safest idea.

The_Morrigan

Hi OP, saw this thread on the front page and just had to post.
Coming at this from the other side I've worked on numerous shows where guns are part of the props. Never ever have we allowed a director to dictate the need for a real gun, regardless of their aspirations. Directors need to be cut off by the less dreamy technical staff and told where the line is; their artistic vision is not always practical or safe.

For every production we have used wooden rifles, toy guns and fancy cigarette lighters and each and every show has received nominations and awards - there is no need for real or replica guns in a show.

Drop me a pm if you need any further advice from a theatrical viewpoint.

MarkAnthony

I've been at one or two productions where I wished I had a gun...

OzCam

Thanks for clarifying that a performance space counts as a public place, even if payment is involved.

I did suggest that parts should be removed to make the RIFs inoperable. That's usually simple enough to do, which part you remove depends on the particular piece.

Getting permission from your local Super under 9(B)-1 is possible, but it depends on where in the country you are. It's entirely at the Super's discretion.

Spaniel heaven

I hope that this thread was a bad bad joke.