Match Thread: Treviso vs Leinster

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

They're not going to sack O'Connor. He'll see out his contract. The only way they'd sack him is if the players themselves lost confidence in him, and there's been no sign of that yet.

Unless things turn around quickly we could be in serious trouble. We're outside the play off places and deservedly so. We're only a point ahead of Connacht and 2 ahead of Scarlets. They may not sack MOC, and I don't want to get into that conversation, but unless there are changes to what we are doing the pressure will almost certainly come on.

Hagz

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Sexton might be having second thoughts if he was watching that. MOC would ruin him. Hopefully he is speaking to the power at the moment ensuring they have someone worthwhile in place before he comes home.

Surely you can't be serious?

He's not having second thoughts, MOC wouldn't ruin him, and he's not speaking to anyone about it.

Clegg

Here lets not talk about sacking coaches. I feel a bit of sympathy for MoC and Cullen as they're following the best coaching ticket our country has ever seen and they have to doit with a side which isn't as good as it once was. Huge improvements are needed though. With MoC I've never felt like the side has gotten out of 2nd gear.

SaveOurLyric

awec wrote: »

I am not a fan of players moving to a coaching role at the same club immediately upon retirement.

I think its difky

Its clear to everyone MOC is the problem. Leo has unfortunately joined a sinker. But he will survive.

The exact same rubbish was on display last year. Team going backwards at quite a rate. In the long run, any price will be cheap to pay off MOC. The sooner the better.

I am confident the wheels are in motion on that front.

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

Unless things turn around quickly we could be in serious trouble. We're outside the play off places and deservedly so. We're only a point ahead of Connacht and 2 ahead of Scarlets. They may not sack MOC, and I don't want to get into that conversation, but unless there are changes to what we are doing the pressure will almost certainly come on.

We'll get into the playoff places, the squad is way too good not to, but how we do it and what we do when we get there is another thing entirely, I'm not confident

corny

Realise everyones disappointed and don't disagree MOC is a poor coach but the players need to take some responsibility for that. No hiding place for some of the performances.

CatFromHue

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Its clear to everyone MOC is the problem. Leo has unfortunately joined a sinker. But he will survive.

The exact same rubbish was on display last year. Team going backwards at quite a rate. In the long run, any price will be cheap to pay off MOC. The sooner the better.

I am confident the wheels are in motion on that front.

You could argue that the team started to go backwards in Schmidt's last season.

molloyjh

Irlandczyk wrote: »

In fairness, same could be said of us. Gopperth from the boot is absolutely shocking lately. He left at least 7 points from misses

Did he not only miss 2 conversions, one of which was from the touchline?

From memory he missed a 2 pointer that he should have gotten where-as Hayward missed a 2 pointer and more importantly a 3 pointer at the end that he should have gotten. It's not about totalling up all the points they missed though anyway. That last penalty is the one that mattered.

SaveOurLyric

Clegg wrote: »

Here lets not talk about sacking coaches.

Why not? The man has clearly not only brought nothing to the squad, but has let them slip backwards from the consistent progress they made under Michael and Joe. Thats they kind of attitude that cost our international team years of waste of the golden generation at their peak as they became a bigger and bigger embarrassment.

MOC's not up to it. Get him out.

Sean Kinsella

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Its clear to everyone MOC is the problem. Leo has unfortunately joined a sinker. But he will survive.

The exact same rubbish was on display last year. Team going backwards at quite a rate. In the long run, any price will be cheap to pay off MOC. The sooner the better.

I am confident the wheels are in motion on that front.

Is that supposition or something more informed?

Hagz

Clegg wrote: »

Here lets not talk about sacking coaches. I feel a bit of sympathy for MoC and Cullen as they're following the best coaching ticket our country has ever seen and they have to doit with a side which isn't as good as it once was. Huge improvements are needed though. With MoC I've never felt like the side has gotten out of 2nd gear.

+1.
Look at the state of the hand he's been dealt. It's coming into December now and he still hasn't been able to field a consistent XV. He's calling on players he never would have expected to have to call upon. Bringing in a new coach now would be suicide. For both us and him.

Irlandczyk

Clegg wrote: »

Here lets not talk about sacking coaches. I feel a bit of sympathy for MoC and Cullen as they're following the best coaching ticket our country has ever seen and they have to doit with a side which isn't as good as it once was. Huge improvements are needed though. With MoC I've never felt like the side has gotten out of 2nd gear.

Ah here. Sorry, that's total crap. There is a gulf in class between our current team and that of the team of the JS era, but it's not that big a gulf. We were never going to get a coach as good as Schmidt in as a replacement, but MOC is lacking even the most basic aspects you could expect from a coach. We've gone from the best coached and organised team in Europe to headless chickens in the space of two seasons. We're being caught out this season on things we just barely got a pass for last season. Winning ugly and relying on luck can only ever last so long.

shuffol

.ak wrote: »

Why did we even go for the DG? We were making easy yards.

There was furious shouting from the touchline for the dropgoal, I assume it was Leinster management, you could see the indecision from the players at the ruck prior to the kick.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

You could argue that the team started to go backwards in Schmidt's last season.

We were decimated with injuries in the first half of the season, the second half there was some absolutely outstanding rugby, some of the best we've played under Schmidt. You have to take the level of the opposition faced into account but id have fancied our chances if we'd got to the h cup knockouts considering how we were playing at the time

SaveOurLyric

CatFromHue wrote: »

You could argue that the team started to go backwards in Schmidt's last season.

Yes you could. But at least the capability to develop had been proven. And something was needed to to revitalise and add something new to the mix. Not someone to pull the plug altogether.

Irlandczyk

molloyjh wrote: »

Did he not only miss 2 conversions, one of which was from the touchline?

From memory he missed a 2 pointer that he should have gotten where-as Hayward missed a 2 pointer and more importantly a 3 pointer at the end that he should have gotten. It's not about totalling up all the points they missed though anyway. That last penalty is the one that mattered.

Two conversions and a drop kick, yeah. That's all I can remember at the moment. Not expecting he kick all of them, but his kicking was particularly poor tonight. The drop kick at the end was easily kickable. Not that we should have put ourselves in that position in the first place, mind.

SaveOurLyric

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Is that supposition or something more informed?

Supposition only. Unfortunately. Leinster faith that that was so bad, on foot of performances that have been on a downward trend anyway, that surely someone cannot be doing something serious about it. Leinster general management has been good for the last 10 years. They are hardly asleep at the wheel now.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

We'll get into the playoff places, the squad is way too good not to, but how we do it and what we do when we get there is another thing entirely, I'm not confident

Again we're talking about the quality of our squad getting us to where we want to go, not our performances or how we are approaching the game. We saw today that this doesn't always happen. We had the better squad, should have won it and were lucky to get the draw in the end.

I've been saying it for a while that we've been getting by on squad depth/quality and a winning mentality. The winning mentality thing is fickle and can disappear pretty suddenly. We're now 4 from 8 and are technically in the battle for the last European spot for the moment. Ospreys will look at next week as a real opportunity and if they turn us over I'd be incredibly concerned.

CatFromHue wrote: »

You could argue that the team started to go backwards in Schmidt's last season.

Do you really believe that though?

Clegg

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Why not? The man has clearly not only brought nothing to the squad, but has let them slip backwards from the consistent progress they made under Michael and Joe. Thats they kind of attitude that cost our international team years of waste of the golden generation at their peak as they became a bigger and bigger embarrassment.

MOC's not up to it. Get him out.

Simply because the side isn't as good as it used to be. Cheika and Schmidt had Bod, Nacewa, Sexton, Cullen, Hines, Horgan and a fit(ter) Fitzgerald. The side isn't doing well and questions must be asked about the turgid way they play, but I think a lot of it is down to the level of expectations not matching up to the player base.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

+1.
Look at the state of the hand he's been dealt. It's coming into December now and he still hasn't been able to field a consistent XV. He's calling on players he never would have expected to have to call upon. Bringing in a new coach now would be suicide. For both us and him.

This weekend 2 years ago we were in the middle of a serious injury crisis too and beat Glasgow away 0-6. Now I know they weren't the Glasgow of today, but they were a lot better then than Treviso are now.

former legend

Not sure what to say about that. Very few positives to take from it.

Not getting into the MOC discussion but questions have to be asked about Cullen. The protection of the ball is atrocious, counter rucking non existent.

We cannot afford Reddan to miss another game. Whether McGrath is better then Boss is moot, he's not good enough. Gopperth was awful, Macken justified MOC's lack of faith, Kearney looked every inch a man who hasn't played in six months and even Kirchner was poor. Fanning and Reid were the only backs to emerge with credit. McGrath's positioning for their last try, jesus.

The forwards were not much better but I'll keep that for later.

Despite all that we should still have won but still pissed it away.

AND more injuries AND Luke pulls out. FFS.

Clegg

Look at Leinster's backline that has played in the big games this season. We're playing with AIL wingers atm, a patchwork midfield, a very average 10 and an excellent utility back who has been shifted from 10 to 12 to 15 when needed. Not a patch on what previous sides could call upon. I'm not a fan of MoC by any means, but I've a bit of sympathy for what he's found himself in. He and Cullen are letting themselves down with the forwards though. There's more strength in depth there than I can ever remember there being with Cheika or Schmidt but there performances are so much worse.

Ugh. Depressing stuff watching Leinster at the moment.

shuffol

For a TH the work Furlong gets through in attack and defence is unbelievable, if he can get his scrummaging up to standard he'll be a huge asset to the side.

former legend

former legend wrote: »

Not getting into the MOC discussion but questions have to be asked about Cullen. The protection of the ball is atrocious, counter rucking non existent.

Was always a really iffy appointment, making a guy with zero coaching experience a senior coach in the team.

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

Simply because the side isn't as good as it used to be. Cheika and Schmidt had Bod, Nacewa, Sexton, Cullen, Hines, Horgan and a fit(ter) Fitzgerald. The side isn't doing well and questions must be asked about the turgid way they play, but I think a lot of it is down to the level of expectations not matching up to the player base.

I can't agree with this at all. Sure we've lost major players, but we have far more depth now than ever before. Look at Furlong today for example. He was great. Here's the squad today compared to the one that beat Glasgow away this time 2 years ago:

01. Jack McGrath|01. Michael Bent
02. Aaron Dundon|02. Richardt Straus
03. Jamie Hagan|03. Tadhg Furlong
04. Leo Cullen|04. Tom Denton
05. Quinn Roux|05. Kane Douglas
06. Kevin McLaughlin|06. Kevin McLaughlin
07. Shane Jennings|07. Jordi Murphy
08. Sean O'Brien|08. Jack Conan
|
09. Isaac Boss|09. Luke McGrath
10. Ian Madigan|10. Jimmy Gopperth
11. Fionn Carr|11. Dave Kearney
12. Andrew Goodman|12. Noel Reid
13. Brendan Macken|13. Brendan Macken
14. Dave Kearney|14. Darragh Fanning
15. Isa Nacewa|15. Zane Kirchner
|
16. Tom Sexton|16. Bryan Byrne
17. Jack O'Connell|17. Peter Dooley
18. Marty Moore|18. Jamie Hagan
19. Devin Toner|19. Ben Marshall
20. Jordi Murphy|20. Dominic Ryan
21. John Cooney|21. Isaac Boss
22. Noel Reid|22. Cathal Marsh
23. Andrew Conway|23. Mick McGrath


O'Brien was in his first game back from injury and was pretty quiet that day. We won against a side better than Treviso with a squad that wasn't a huge amount better. Sure it wasn't vintage stuff and we didn't get any tries, but the point still stands that we could win then with a similar squad. Why can't we win now?

Clegg

molloyjh wrote: »

I can't agree with this at all. Sure we've lost major players, but we have far more depth now than ever before. Look at Furlong today for example. He was great. Here's the squad today compared to the one that beat Glasgow away this time 2 years ago:


O'Brien was in his first game back from injury and was pretty quiet that day. We won against a side better than Treviso with a squad that wasn't a huge amount better. Sure it wasn't vintage stuff and we didn't get any tries, but the point still stands that we could win then with a similar squad. Why can't we win now?

I've already made the point about having a better roster of forwards than under our previous two coaches. O'Connor and Cullen have a lot to answer for there. But that backline looks better than the one that played this evening. And at the end of the day O'Connor isn't as good as Schmidt. But who is? I don't think any coach Leinster could've realistically appointed at the time would be doing much better. The side was just coming off the peak of its performances. It was always going to be downhill from there.

Hagz

molloyjh wrote: »

This weekend 2 years ago we were in the middle of a serious injury crisis too and beat Glasgow away 0-6. Now I know they weren't the Glasgow of today, but they were a lot better then than Treviso are now.

To be honest I can't make a solid comparison between the two games. My memory wouldn't be strong enough to remember the context of that game two season ago. What I would say is looking at the XV there's more leadership and experience in that XV 2 seasons ago.

You had 8/15 players who had a Heineken Cup medal to their name, compared to 3/15 for this game. You had experienced leaders like Nacewa, O'Brien, Cullen, Jennings and Boss. Where were the experienced leaders today. Strauss, McLaughlin, Gopperth, Kirchner? They're experienced yes, but I wouldn't peg them as leaders to be honest.

Leinster didn't just lose 3 top players in Cullen, Nacewa and Sexton, they lost 3 huge leaders. Two of which were regularly available during these windows where the internationals are away. I'd rather hang on with MOC. Let's see where we end up at the end of this season, and go from there. Bringing in a new coach now would only cause more problems.

LostArt

I couldn't get to watch the game but have it recorded. Is it safe to say I shouldn't bother?

LostArt

LostArt wrote: »

I couldn't get to watch the game but have it recorded. Is it safe to say I shouldn't bother?

There were 8 tries so just fastforward it through to watch those. It was abysmal as a spectacle though, don't spend 80 mins on it.

Sean Kinsella

LostArt wrote: »

I couldn't get to watch the game but have it recorded. Is it safe to say I shouldn't bother?

In a word: yes.

molloyjh

Hagz wrote: »

To be honest I can't make a solid comparison between the two games. My memory wouldn't be strong enough to remember the context of that game two season ago. What I would say is looking at the XV there's more leadership and experience in that XV 2 seasons ago.

You had 8/15 players who had a Heineken Cup medal to their name, compared to 3/15 for this game. You had experienced leaders like Nacewa, O'Brien, Cullen, Jennings and Boss. Where were the experienced leaders today. Strauss, McLaughlin, Gopperth, Kirchner? They're experienced yes, but I wouldn't peg them as leaders to be honest.

Leinster didn't just lose 3 top players in Cullen, Nacewa and Sexton, they lost 3 huge leaders. Two of which were regularly available during these windows where the internationals are away. I'd rather hang on with MOC. Let's see where we end up at the end of this season, and go from there. Bringing in a new coach now would only cause more problems.

I would in no way advocate bringing in a new coach now. That would be madness. But the flip side to that is if we wait until the end of the season to make a decision then we won't have (m)any options if we do choose to go down that route. The decision, if it is to be made, needs to be made around the Christmas/New Year time.

My position on MOC has always been to give him until Christmas this year anyway. Then make a call on how to proceed next season. It's going to be nigh on impossible to do that now given the injuries as we can't fully judge him, but performances like that aren't helping him at all.

In my view there is no excuse for not getting the win today. None. Treviso got 3 times as many match points from us today as they did in their previous 7 games combined. They were on an average of less than 1 try per game and scored 4 against us. It's simply not good enough to do that badly against the bottom placed side if you want to be a contender. End of. Players need to take a look at themselves to a degree but that level of performance is hardly something we didn't see last year. We did, we just scraped the results we needed then. We're not doing that now (Connacht and Treviso) and the coaches need to take their share of the blame for that.

ssaye2

3 pts could have been more could have been less hopefully doesn't haunt us in may

former legend

Also: the picture quality for games played in Italy is always brutal. Didn't make watching it enjoyable on any level.

thomond2006

Can the 3 points gained as opposed to less be considered a positive?

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

I can't agree with this at all. Sure we've lost major players, but we have far more depth now than ever before. Look at Furlong today for example. He was great. Here's the squad today compared to the one that beat Glasgow away this time 2 years ago:

01. Jack McGrath|01. Michael Bent
02. Aaron Dundon|02. Richardt Straus
03. Jamie Hagan|03. Tadhg Furlong
04. Leo Cullen|04. Tom Denton
05. Quinn Roux|05. Kane Douglas
06. Kevin McLaughlin|06. Kevin McLaughlin
07. Shane Jennings|07. Jordi Murphy
08. Sean O'Brien|08. Jack Conan
|
09. Isaac Boss|09. Luke McGrath
10. Ian Madigan|10. Jimmy Gopperth
11. Fionn Carr|11. Dave Kearney
12. Andrew Goodman|12. Noel Reid
13. Brendan Macken|13. Brendan Macken
14. Dave Kearney|14. Darragh Fanning
15. Isa Nacewa|15. Zane Kirchner
|
16. Tom Sexton|16. Bryan Byrne
17. Jack O'Connell|17. Peter Dooley
18. Marty Moore|18. Jamie Hagan
19. Devin Toner|19. Ben Marshall
20. Jordi Murphy|20. Dominic Ryan
21. John Cooney|21. Isaac Boss
22. Noel Reid|22. Cathal Marsh
23. Andrew Conway|23. Mick McGrath


O'Brien was in his first game back from injury and was pretty quiet that day. We won against a side better than Treviso with a squad that wasn't a huge amount better. Sure it wasn't vintage stuff and we didn't get any tries, but the point still stands that we could win then with a similar squad. Why can't we win now?

When I look at the 23 from a few years ago I see a much better selection of players.

SOB, Boss, Madigan, and Goodman v Conan (3 starts), McGrath (2 starts), Gopperth, and Reid (24 starts) is no contest.

The same with the packs too, the one from a few years ago is a good bit better than the one we'd out today.

Pudsy33

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can the 3 points gained as opposed to less be considered a positive?

Given how poor the team played, the 3 points is a result. The performance was puke though.

Swiwi.

molloyjh wrote: »

I would in no way advocate bringing in a new coach now. That would be madness. But the flip side to that is if we wait until the end of the season to make a decision then we won't have (m)any options if we do choose to go down that route. The decision, if it is to be made, needs to be made around the Christmas/New Year time.

My position on MOC has always been to give him until Christmas this year anyway. Then make a call on how to proceed next season. It's going to be nigh on impossible to do that now given the injuries as we can't fully judge him, but performances like that aren't helping him at all.

In my view there is no excuse for not getting the win today. None. Treviso got 3 times as many match points from us today as they did in their previous 7 games combined. They were on an average of less than 1 try per game and scored 4 against us. It's simply not good enough to do that badly against the bottom placed side if you want to be a contender. End of. Players need to take a look at themselves to a degree but that level of performance is hardly something we didn't see last year. We did, we just scraped the results we needed then. We're not doing that now (Connacht and Treviso) and the coaches need to take their share of the blame for that.

I nominate you as next coach Molloy :pac:

(would miss your match previews though...)

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

When I look at the 23 from a few years ago I see a much better selection of players.

SOB, Boss, Madigan, and Goodman v Conan (3 starts), McGrath (2 starts), Gopperth, and Reid (24 starts) is no contest.

The same with the packs too, the one from a few years ago is a good bit better than the one we'd out today.

It's better, but not by a huge distance. SOB was only just back from injury and it took him a few weeks to get back up to speed. That Glasgow team were a distance better than the Treviso side though.

Anyway with any luck we'll get a few lads back next week and we'll be able to get one over on Ospreys.

former legend

molloyjh wrote: »

Anyway with any luck we'll get a few lads back next week and we'll be able to get one over on Ospreys.

Neither Kearney nor D'Arcy looked happy coming off last night. Strauss and McLaughlin injured today. Who knows about Luke, McFadden, McCarthy, Jennings... Mike Ross could use a break too.

Edit:
Ross must be rested.

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

It's better, but not by a huge distance. SOB was only just back from injury and it took him a few weeks to get back up to speed. That Glasgow team were a distance better than the Treviso side though.

Anyway with any luck we'll get a few lads back next week and we'll be able to get one over on Ospreys.

The weather that day was ****e, really bad and wet, and Glasgow would have had a few guys with Scotland too.

When you look at the guys that played for Glasgow that day too alot of the pack wouldn't have played much for Glasgow since.

There are too many variables to really compare.

The match today is a big come down after a great three weeks for the national team so it's going to appear worse than is.

We had a bunch of guy's just back from injury and a few peripheral squad players.

That said - Treviso didnt even seem all that up for it, they grew into the game a bit but it's not like they played amazingly.

We were badly lacking in the contact area, we didn't have any great structure going forward which was very obvious by how poorly we passed and the general indecision in their half.

As bad a result as this is, poor results in bigger games worry me more. Will reserve judgement until the latter half of the season and see where we are then.

Bit worried though.

Heroditas

thomond2006 wrote: »

Can the 3 points gained as opposed to less be considered a positive?

I would have thought four points would have been a realistic outcome, given the relative position of the teams prior to today.
We were lucky to escape with 3 but could have easily come away with 5.
In my opinion, it's a point dropped but what worries me more is the abysmal performance and lack of structure on show.

twinytwo

Clegg wrote: »

Look at Leinster's backline that has played in the big games this season. We're playing with AIL wingers atm, a patchwork midfield, a very average 10 and an excellent utility back who has been shifted from 10 to 12 to 15 when needed. Not a patch on what previous sides could call upon. I'm not a fan of MoC by any means, but I've a bit of sympathy for what he's found himself in. He and Cullen are letting themselves down with the forwards though. There's more strength in depth there than I can ever remember there being with Cheika or Schmidt but there performances are so much worse.

so kinda similar to what munster have to make due with... :pac:

.ak

Talk of MOC being shown the door won't happen. Especially with sexton due back next season, where most of our issues are.

Was only half watching the game. Our loose kicking was awful though, really what handed them the game. Our tackling and defence in General was poor enough, we defended far too narrow expecting Treviso to be one dimensional.

Thought mick McGrath had another good cameo.

phog

Having speed read through this thread I'm glad I decided to watch the Munster Club hurling final rather than opt for this game. When I saw the scoreline on Twitter I thought I missed a cracker, switched over for the last three minutes or so, must have caught the best of the game without a score.

Bigger game needed next week v Ospreys

vienne86

I only saw the last 20 mins of this game. I saw woeful defence, missed tackles and aimless kicking. To draw with the bottom club in the league us dreadful. We could be struggling for our place in Europe which is unbelievable.

chancer12

why isn't sam coghlan murray given a chance? should be blooding young, talented players but MOC never selects him, he's a class act. O'Connor doesn't seem to like small, fast players. His whole strategy seems to be about hoofing the leather off the ball and using bulk to gain advantage, rather than playing the type of fast rugby that Leinster excels in - and that Ireland are now playing under Schmidt

Putinovsky

MOC has been nothing short of disastrous.

vienne86

Last season we escaped umpteen times out of bad performances with a BP win. Our luck ran out today.