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General publics perception of german shepherds
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Because of this...
and this...
and this...
So, for me it's both health AND mental-wise!
As I said earlier in the thread, a good GSD is a wonderful creature, but there are a fair few of them out there that are nervous, jumpy, twitchy, and unpredictable, and whilst without doubt this is influenced by their upbringing, there is most certainly a big genetic component to it. The fella who Borderlinemeath refers to as coming into the vets with his show GSD on a choke chain, has produced some of the most nervous and unpleasant GSDs I've ever met, yet his main show-line, whilst horrible to look at if you're into the healthier straight-back (they also have rampant skin problems), are generally nice enough temperament-wise.
When I meet a GSD that shrinks back from people, my heart sinks. It's so not what the breed is meant to be
Thank you. I knew of the physical issues that GSDs are known to suffer with, but the extra information particularly about how it can relate to temperament is really helpful![Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]
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For me the modern GSD has become a dumbed/watered down version of what it was orginally meant to be, some might say that it had to become that way to fit into modern family living & maybe so. But for me a GSD should not be a cuddly teddy bear & everyone's best buddy on first meeting, it should be more of a 'sit back & observe', calm, steady type of dog who when you do eventually befriend will be loyal till the day they die.
The same is true of many breeds, and imo it is a necessary part of producing dogs for the pet market, as opposed to the working market. I would far, far rather a "dumbed down" GSD who's friendly with everyone, to one of the all-too-common nervy, jumpy type that is anything but friendly. 0 -
The same is true of many breeds, and imo it is a necessary part of producing dogs for the pet market, as opposed to the working market. I would far, far rather a "dumbed down" GSD who's friendly with everyone, to one of the all-too-common nervy, jumpy type that is anything but friendly.
Sorry, I think I know what you're trying to say, but I think you've the logic all messed up.
The GSD is the way it is because in the last 30 odd years the Kennel clubs developed this absurd idea of a breed standard. As a result of this idiotic 'standard', blood lines went away from a breed that could actually work, & started to be bred from a very small subset of population.
You can marry your cousin & have kids, & they'll probably be ok; but do that for 5 or 6 generations, & I guarantee you, their kids won't be okay.
With the move away from the proper working breed, one of the most important qualities you want in a working dog was lost, calm. A sheep dog that is as likely to attack as it is to herd, is bugger all good as a working animal, but that's what 'standard' dog is becoming.
A true GSD might be a live wire & demand discipline & structure, but it should never be unpredictable. So as far as I'm concerned, a working GSD is a far better candidate as a pet ( once you can meet its needs for discipline, & stimulation ), than any reject show dog, derived from the false standard.0 -
fishfoodie wrote: »Sorry, I think I know what you're trying to say, but I think you've the logic all messed up.
The GSD is the way it is because in the last 30 odd years the Kennel clubs developed this absurd idea of a breed standard. As a result of this idiotic 'standard', blood lines went away from a breed that could actually work, & started to be bred from a very small subset of population.
You can marry your cousin & have kids, & they'll probably be ok; but do that for 5 or 6 generations, & I guarantee you, their kids won't be okay.
With the move away from the proper working breed, one of the most important qualities you want in a working dog was lost, calm. A sheep dog that is as likely to attack as it is to herd, is bugger all good as a working animal, but that's what 'standard' dog is becoming.
A true GSD might be a live wire & demand discipline & structure, but it should never be unpredictable. So as far as I'm concerned, a working GSD is a far better candidate as a pet ( once you can meet its needs for discipline, & stimulation ), than any reject show dog, derived from the false standard.
Em... you seem to be putting words in my mouth that I simply did not say.
There are three broad groups of GSD, in my experience.
The nervy, jumpy GSDs that I know are generally from show lines. I am more than fully aware of the effect of breed standard breeding on these dogs, they are not the GSD that the breed should be.
Then you have working line dogs, which with all due respect, are often a little too drivey to make a pet dog for anybody other than an owner who knows what they're at. Temperament-wise, they're fine, and physically, they're good, but a lot of dog for most pet owners.
Then you have the pet dog lines, and these are the ones I am referring to as needing to be soft, cuddly, calm dogs, because that's what a pet dog needs to be. In my experience, the best pet dogs come from working lines, but a less drivey version of them: the calmness is retained but the driviness is reduced. I have said it many times on this forum to people looking for a GSD: avoid show-line GSDs at all costs, and go to a working-line breeder who has a softer line of pups suitable as pets for less experienced owners.
All older popular breeds have gone through a softening process in order to fit into the pet dog market, and there's nothing wrong with that. If all pet breeds had retained their full working traits, way too many of them would be beyond the ability of many pet dog owners.
My point was simply this: I would rather that GSDs that are destined for the pet market are a softer version of the working line, rather than from the dodgy (mentally and physically) show lines. Which isn't at all what you seem to think I'm saying
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Grew up with GSDs, my grandfather used to train them in his younger days whilst my mother was growing up and then just kept a few.
As they were dogs to be trained, they were usually got from pounds and a lot of them had a history of biting so while they were still in the training process, they were quite dangerous (not representative of the breed, just some of these dogs). Mum learned from a very young age to respect a dog, something she passed on to us. When training progressed a bit, they were let in the house (baring in mind, this was thirty odd years ago where health and safety wasn't to the fore) and apparently, you learned to sit very still.
Anyways, despite this and despite my grandfather's preference to find dogs that had a history of biting (he had a soft spot and thought they deserved another chance), he still got many dogs that refused to bite, once they were out of their old setting. No amount of meat could tempt the dog to close their jaws around my grandfather's arm. These were usually given basic training which wasn't guarding, and sold as pets. One in particular was called Jason who they kept themselves due to his amazing temperment. Again, rescue dog but his teeth were blunted (I assume his last owners did it). Barely a bad bone in his body and was meant to be ridiculously smart. Mum had him from childhood up to the age of about 16 or so and he was dressed up in clothes and spoon fed things of the plate
One time when they lived in England, he got out, when mum was only very young, about eight or so. She was sent up the road to get him. There was the dog, happily peeing on a lamppost and the people on the road running away every time he looked at them. These fully grown adults walking to the other side of the street or properly running, and this little eight year old girl walks straight up to this massive german shepard, grabs his collar, and walks him home without a bother
I loved hearing all the funny little stories. German Shepards are very smart dogs, and very loyal. I would love to own one!0 -
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Its the one thing I wonder about when you mention it actually, if they do in general have very good bite inhibition. Having not owned other breeds, I don't have the same personal knowledge of how trainable 'bite inhibition' is in other breeds.
I would say the same as you. Mine has a jealous streak, when he came first he was very careless about 'scissoring', he doesn't do it anymore and he will envelope the cats whole head in his mouth in frustration, but he wouldn't dare harm her.
A friend has a white one from a similar situation as your Grandad, a second chance dog. I don't care for its temperament at all, it is nervous, but she seems to have done some level of work with it, such that, you would have to push hard now to provoke it enough to bite (I had to wrestle something off it, it shouldn't have been eating, and I was wary of doing so, it gave off some bad signs, but it don't think it would have bitten me too easily. (and I'm basically a stranger to it)
They can be taught to overcome their instinct to bite with training. It's obviously going to be more work for some dogs than others. And, of course, you would never ever trust it completely, no matter how much training it gets. In saying that, the other reason he got dogs that were considered prone to biting was that it's much much easier teach a dog to redirect his want to bite, than it is to get a dog to bite when it doesn't want to. Take my labrador for example. He started limping a few years ago and we took him to the vet. Despite the fact the dog was clearly limping, the vet could not get a pain response from him because he was just so happy to have someone paying attention to him. Same with when he was getting an injection. They brought in a strong male vet to hold him while they injected him, but our dog just spent the whole time trying to lick the face of the vet that was holding him, he never noticed the injection :P He is a lab though.
I've actually another story about that... When they were still in England, they had what they called the racist dog. He wasn't actually racist cause he was a dog, but his last owner just happened to be black and treated him cruely and the dog made that association... So anyway, before he was fully trained, he was out in the back garden when one night, they were broken into. It just so happened that this man was black. It was lucky for him that my grandfather heard the commotion and was able to call off the dog before he did serious damage. That dog needed an awful lot more training to control his instincts when it came to certain people
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Em... you seem to be putting words in my mouth that I simply did not say.
There are three broad groups of GSD, in my experience.
The nervy, jumpy GSDs that I know are generally from show lines. I am more than fully aware of the effect of breed standard breeding on these dogs, they are not the GSD that the breed should be.
Then you have working line dogs, which with all due respect, are often a little too drivey to make a pet dog for anybody other than an owner who knows what they're at. Temperament-wise, they're fine, and physically, they're good, but a lot of dog for most pet owners.
Then you have the pet dog lines, and these are the ones I am referring to as needing to be soft, cuddly, calm dogs, because that's what a pet dog needs to be. In my experience, the best pet dogs come from working lines, but a less drivey version of them: the calmness is retained but the driviness is reduced. I have said it many times on this forum to people looking for a GSD: avoid show-line GSDs at all costs, and go to a working-line breeder who has a softer line of pups suitable as pets for less experienced owners.
All older popular breeds have gone through a softening process in order to fit into the pet dog market, and there's nothing wrong with that. If all pet breeds had retained their full working traits, way too many of them would be beyond the ability of many pet dog owners.
My point was simply this: I would rather that GSDs that are destined for the pet market are a softer version of the working line, rather than from the dodgy (mentally and physically) show lines. Which isn't at all what you seem to think I'm saying
I think we probably agree with the issues with the GSD breed, but I think it's this phrase that bothers me, probably unduly
..a necessary part of producing dogs for the pet market, as opposed to the working market.
To me this sounds like you're advocating using a part of the 'show' line for pets, because they're more suited to being pets, as they're more pliable.
I come at it from the opposite point of view; the show line(s) are unrecoverable, & if someone is looking for a pet, they should start in the working lines, & find a dog that isn't really suitable for work, but will probably be perfect for a pet. I think the breed will be in a much better state if they branch the dogs off the working lines, & start will a fundamentally healthy dog, which is more pliable than the best working lines. But first of all, start with a dog that hasn't all the worst aspects of the show lines, & is physically sound.0 -
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The same is true of many breeds, and imo it is a necessary part of producing dogs for the pet market, as opposed to the working market. I would far, far rather a "dumbed down" GSD who's friendly with everyone, to one of the all-too-common nervy, jumpy type that is anything but friendly.
Isn't there a middle ground though?
A GSD who isn't overtly friendly with everyone on first meeting isn't necessarialy unfriendly either, it just takes longer to win them over. To me that is a better example of a GSD temperament, never flighty but calmly confident.
I realise this isn't the best type of temperament in a pet dog & I feel it is unfortunate that people want to mould the GSD into something it was never meant to be ( a Lab in GSD clothing) so it fits into the pet environment. My opinion is if you want a teddy bear of a dog choose a different breed.0 -
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Well then I don't know why you quoted me earlier if we're saying the same thing
Yes, I think we are saying much the same. I was just expanding on the point you made, or coming at it from a slightly different slant. It just seemed to me that that my comment re even the friendliest GSDs being slightly stand-offish had not been seen by you. I was not and am not trying to have a go at you
Which leads me to want to clarify... When I'm talking about soft, cuddly GSDs, I'd hate to see them being so with anyone other than family and friends.... That slight suspicion of strangers is, to me, part of what the GSD should be, even the mildest pet dog!0 -
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That slight suspicion of strangers is, to me, part of what the GSD should be, even the mildest pet dog!
Me too. They should be a little reserved. Collies are the same - they're really only interested in you. No coincidence they are both pastoral breeds. Guess that's why I like them so much. Anti-social, just like me. 0 -
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We had one growing up - he was black and tan but more black than tan if that makes sense. Everyone was afraid of him lol but he was very gentle. Our house was broken into one time and the 'robbers' must have freaked out when they saw him because there was a pot of water on the floor and our Henry Hippo saving's boxes were untouched
- he'd never drink water from our taps - only our neighbors lol! My mum used to open the door with him standing between her legs to get rid of people lol! :pac:
My opinion of them now - tbh I don't see that many of them around where I walk - maybe one or two? One of the owners is polish and the other is Irish. I do see LOADS of them driving to and from work past a 'rough' area - they're the finest examples I've ever seen so I wonder if there's somebody breeding them nearby? No frog legs and beautiful long coats.0 -
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A couple of months ago I adopted a 15-week-old pup from a rescue, whose mother was a GSD cross. At the time we were told the pups were GSD cross, no info given on Mum, as she was recovering from her spay, so not yet up for adoption.
As the pup has grown it's become apparent that Dad must have been Husky, or at least mostly Husky. And boy have I been glad of the GSD we have in there, upon learning that Not that I have anything against Huskies as such, but just I have such an appreciation of what a big challenge they are to own!
And sure, my girl has much more of an independent streak than I originally signed up for, is more outgoing and bouncy than the GSD cross I had in mind, and moves like a bouncy ball, able to throw herself around or over everything imaginable :rolleyes:
But she does retain an ability to stop and think before throwing herself into everything, which has been reinforced by the basic obedience course we attended. And she has also forged a bond with me already, which I feel is rivalling, even at 6 months, any I've had with a previous dog.
I can take her out onto our local haunts - bog, forest, ghost golf-course - and already she is sticking close to me, and coming for a cuddle (her favourite reward ), whenever I decide to call her. She chased a rabbit one time at the golf course, and of course I wasn't stupid enough to call her while she was doing that, at this stage, but as soon as it was clear it had gone to ground, I just crept away and hid, and she was running up to me for a cuddle, as soon as she managed to sniff me out
I don't let her loose anywhere yet that we are likely to meet other dog-walkers: that would just be too big a challenge, as she adores other dogs, and doesn't yet have the self-control to behave around them without restraint. But she is making great strides towards behaving calmly around them on the lead. She generally walks beautifully beside me on a loose lead, and even when she does get over-excited, a few changes in direction will remind her what she's supposed to be doing on the lead.
The next step is learning to walk calmly beside another dog on the lead: that's still a bit of a challenge. Her neighbour-pal Frankie is calm on the lead, though he does walk on the very end of it, which isn't what I want for her. So a lot of work to get her to the basic level before we move on to more things, but it seems to me we are both enjoying it at this stage, which is a good start.
So yeah, like I said, thanking my lucky stars so far that it was GSD that lured me into this Husky world, and hoping this will be my life-line and help me survive it
I was always thinking of starting her in a job, such as agility/tracking/whatever anyway. At this stage I am counting on it, as while a GSD cross would love to do it, a Husky cross will need to!
Edited to add: Oh yeah, and just remembering: a few weeks ago, I read something from the internet, saying how it is a total disaster to breed a GSD with a Husky: something about how the herding instinct of the GSD would conflict with the prey drive of the Husky, and drive the poor dog insane!
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but this sounds like utter burdocks to me! As if herding breeds have zero instinct to chase or something, when we all know that collies are often the worst culprits when it comes to sheep-worrying and such.
And as if all the ancestors of our dogs are discretely trying to guide them in the background, vying for supremacy at each turn! I'd be amazed there were any sane dogs on the planet, if this were the case!0 -
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