What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

ShowMeTheCash

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But how is shooting at some-one they believe to be armed and about to pull the firearm on them, incompetent?

Because it was a toy gun, are you stupid?

um7y1h83ge06nx

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Because it was a toy gun, are you stupid?

It wasn't a toy though it was a replica.

Yeah_Right

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Because it was a toy gun, are you stupid?

Its not a toy gun. Its a replica that had been modified to look real.

end of the road

FrostyJack wrote: »

Someone seems to have a chip on their shoulder about police from all countries.

no, just ones that are corrupt, bigoted and racist, and behave like wild animals

ShowMeTheCash

Aranza Thoughtless Pedestrian wrote: »

It wasn't a toy though it was a replica.

OK let me put it another way, they killed an unarmed 12 year old.

KERSPLAT!

MOD

Keep it civil please. Calling people idiots or stupid isn't acceptable.

ShowMeTheCash

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Its not a toy gun. Its a replica that had been modified to look real.

Again they killed an unarmed 12 year old.

wexie

end of the road wrote: »

. and they're is a difference between walking through an area, and being uncomfortable with an area because of the colour of the skin of those who live there

I never mentioned skin colour though did I? I specifically said being uncomfortable because of the crime rate of a certain area. That's why I mentioned Cherry Orchard vs. Donnybrook.

Does feeling uncomfortable in some of the more low rent area's of lets say Miami, as a white person, make you a racist?

ShowMeTheCash

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

MOD

Keep it civil please. Calling people idiots or stupid isn't acceptable.

Noted.

SuperSean11

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

OK let me put it another way, they killed a potentially armed 12 year old.

Fixed your post

um7y1h83ge06nx

I should really remember that in the world of After Hours everything is black or white, rather than a see if gray.

Putinovsky

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

You seem to be equating poor with being black. Granted a disproportionate amount of black people in the US are poor this does not mean poor = black. If that boy was white and in the same socio-economic class then he would be just as likely to be shot.

Why on earth did I do that?

If that boy was white and in the same socio-economic class then he is not just as likely to be shot. Look at the statistics. 25% of black people live in poverty in the US compared to 10% of white people, yet in 100% of the accidental shootings by US police where a youth has been killed that youth has been black.

Poverty breeds criminality, this is a well documented fact. So it stands to reason that in a country where a disproportionate number of black people are on the poverty line that a disproportionate amount of crime would come from that demographic.

But what happens when 75% of that population are not in poverty and are treated like criminals? What happens when even those that are in poverty are still treated different to other racial groups that are in poverty?

A black person in an affluent area is no more likely to meet unsolicited police attention than a white person.

Simply not true. There have been countless studies done to show this. There are even boat loads of videos on youtube made by college social studies students showing how cops react to a black person in certain areas compared to white.

Just one example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGVywZ8MuWI

Saying all that, the situation with the 12 year old boy could have happened in any area of the US regardless of the boys skin colour or the economic state of the area. The boy had what looked like a real fire arm and when asked to put his hands in the air he went for the gun instead. I don't believe any cop is in the wrong for shooting in that scenario.

So why don't the statistics reflect this? Explain that.

FrostyJack

end of the road wrote: »

no, just ones that are corrupt, bigoted and racist, and behave like wild animals

According to your posts that is all of them.

Putinovsky wrote:

This type of incident happened because black people in the US are put in these type of situations because of the colour of their skin. There have been countless mistaken shootings of black kids where there wasn't even a replica on the victim, the cops just perceived the kid to move in a suspicious manner. One has to wonder why US cops never shoot dead a white kid perceived to move in a suspicious manner?

These type of incidents happen regularly in the US because police approach black people in a different way to white people. There is simply not getting away from that.

While you are right about the racism and how black males are perceived in America, it unlikely this would have ended in a shooting if the weapon was obviously a replica i.e. the red tip was on.

AudreyHepburn

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Because it was a toy gun, are you stupid?

It was a replica, there's a difference.

Yeah_Right

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Again they killed an unarmed 12 year old.

I disagree that he was unarmed. He was armed with a modified replica gun that he had been using to terrorise and scare members of the public.

ShowMeTheCash

SuperSean11 wrote: »

Fixed your post

Why? Sure anyone could be potentially armed.

wexie

Aranza Thoughtless Pedestrian wrote: »

Is it really that simple though. It appears that this wasn't a toy gun but a replica. I honestly find it hard to believe that it's easy to differentiate between real and replica from distance and under the potential threat of getting shot.

It's not, replica's are made to look EXACTLY the same as the real thing, with the exception of the internals being different and an orange diffuser, which had been removed.

Even a trained firearms expert would have trouble telling the difference without physically holding it in his hands.

AudreyHepburn

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

OK let me put it another way, they killed an unarmed 12 year old.

In their eyes, at that moment, he was armed.

Irlandczyk

Putinovsky wrote: »

Latest reports are saying that the cops didn't even ask him to raise his hands actually.

The latest, you say? The latest I can find in an admittedly brief Google search was one published an hour ago by Sky News, in which they report:

Deputy chief of police Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the "fake weapon" - which did not have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle of replicas.

Further going on to say:

He said that the boy did not make any verbal threats but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands.

"That’s when the officer fired," Mr Tomba said.

...

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association, said the officers were not told that the 911 caller suspected the gun might have been fake.

...

Daniel Michael Margolis, a local criminal lawyer, told Sky News: "Whether the gun was real or not is immaterial. The officers have to assume it’s real, especially because it looks real.

"They’re certainly not going to trust the observation of the 911 caller. There are also cases where orange safety indicators have been painted on real guns to make them look like replicas."

Granted, most of these quotes are from Ed Tomba, deputy chief of police, who may have a bias in what he's saying. It sure doesn't sound like they went in all-guns-blazing to me though...

To those saying they couldn't shoot a kid, even if the kid started shooting real bullets at them. Saying they'd rather die, clearly aren't seeing the big picture here. You'd really rather die, allowing this dangerous kid to put all other innocent people in the area, young and old, at risk? Cop the **** on.

Putinovsky wrote: »

Care to answer the questions I have asked of you? I'll repeat them.

(1)Why do you think that black kids are always the victims of these accidental shootings and never white kids?

I can't exactly say for black kids living in affluent neighbourhoods, but certainly the likelihood of a kid of any colour in a poor neighbourhood is more likely to be outside playing with toys or playing sports than a kid in a relatively more well-off neighbourhood who is say, inside playing with his new PS4/Nintendo DS/whatever that his daddy bought for him. There are many ways of looking at statistics, though I'm not dismissing the point you're making entirely; maybe racial profiling is a reason for such skewed statistics. You can't looks at stats alone and make educated guesses.

Putinovsky

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I disagree that he was unarmed. He was armed with a modified replica gun that he had been using to terrorise and scare members of the public.

A modified replica gun? He had an airsoft gun. Something millions of kids have up and down the US yet its always a black kid that is mistakenly shot dead in these situations.

Witcher

Putinovsky wrote: »

A modified replica gun? He had an airsoft gun. Something millions of kids have up and down the US yet its always a black kid that is mistakenly shot dead in these situations.

Can't write a post without bringing up skin colour can you?

I thought for a second you were going to get through a post without it but you slipped it in at the death.

AudreyHepburn

Putinovsky wrote: »

A modified replica gun? He had an airsoft gun. Something millions of kids have up and down the US yet its always a black kid that is mistakenly shot dead in these situations.

His skin color is irrelevant and you know it.

statesaver

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

His skin color is irrelevant and you know it.

this is the US, skin colour has alot to do with it. Sad but true

Irlandczyk

Putinovsky wrote: »

A modified replica gun? He had an airsoft gun. Something millions of kids have up and down the US yet its always a black kid that is mistakenly shot dead in these situations.

Point me to concrete statistics showing how many of these supposedly millions of kids up and down the US bring their airsoft guns to school and to playgrounds and scare the ****e out of people.

Point me to concrete statistics showing me how many of these kids are white, and how many are black.

Point out the concrete statistics showing that the black kids in these situations are always more likely to be shot dead.

Until I see these for myself, I'm going to assume you're just making up ****e in order to be outraged.

Putinovsky

Strider wrote: »

Can't write a post without bringing up skin colour can you?

I thought for a second you were going to get through a post without it but you slipped it in at the death.

Because skin colour is the important issue here.

end of the road

FrostyJack wrote: »

According to your posts that is all of them.

no it isn't

Canis Lupus

Putinovsky wrote: »

Because skin colour is the important issue here.

It's not. Facts I would imagine are the important issue here. At this time we know an individual whom the police believed to be armed with a real gun was shot. You can keep trying to bring race into it to somehow muddy the water but this is the situation. Unless you have some information that shows that in this situation the kid was shot because he was black I think you need to stop suggesting it.

wexie

Putinovsky wrote: »

Because skin colour is the important issue here.

Gee and here I was thinking it was the fact that a 12year old child was shot.

Regardless of what his skin colour was.

Putinovsky

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

His skin color is irrelevant and you know it.

What are you talking about?

When I asked you why black kids are always the victims of accidental shootings you replied and admitted that it was because of racial profiling. Yet now you are saying his skin colour is irrelevant??

end of the road

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

His skin color is irrelevant and you know it.

its very relevant and everybody knows it. the fact that this happens a lot in america to kids who so happen to be black says a lot

Pumpkinseeds

The parents of the child are adamant that the shooting wasn't a racial issue yet there are those on this thread who are Hell bent on making it a racial issue, so again, I'll say that those people are the racists. They are the ones who want to make every negative incident between black and white into a racially motivated issue and I don't understand that mentality.

Don Kedick

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The parents of the child are adamant that the shooting wasn't a racial issue yet there are those on this thread who are Hell bent on making it a racial issue, so again, I'll say that those people are the racists. They are the ones who want to make every negative incident between black and white into a racially motivated issue and I don't understand that mentality.

I haven't read the last few pages on this thread but the last thing I read from you was about the people in Ferguson and your post was very much about race.

Putinovsky

Irlandczyk wrote: »

Point me to concrete statistics showing how many of these supposedly millions of kids up and down the US bring their airsoft guns to school and to playgrounds and scare the ****e out of people.

Millions of kids have airsoft guns. I can't point to any statistics but BB guns are feckin' hugely popular in America. And kids don't play with BB guns in their house.

Point me to concrete statistics showing me how many of these kids are white, and how many are black.

According to the NAACP, in 47 shootings resulting in deaths 35 of those were black individuals. Now here's interesting part, of those 35 black deaths 40% of them were unarmed. In the 12 shootings involving white individuals they were all armed.

There has not been one incident of a white kid being mistakenly shot dead in the last decade. Google me one example

Point out the concrete statistics showing that the black kids in these situations are always more likely to be shot dead.

Until I see these for myself, I'm going to assume you're just making up ****e in order to be outraged.

Emmmm, show me one incident where a white youth has been mistakenly shot dead by US police. Just one..

Don Kedick

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Was your toy gun an Airsoft gun modified to look like the real thing?
Was there a high rate of gun crime in your neighbourhood?

The kid is dead. He shouldn't have had the gun, if he hadn't brought it to school with him then he wouldn't be dead. My sympathies are with the person who shot him. 12 is old enough to know that it's a fcuking stupid idea to take a replica gun to school and as a 'racially' profiled minority he should have known better. I wonder if the backlash of rioting by the black community of that town will kick off tonight or if they'll wait to destroy the town of Ferguson when the verdict comes in on that shooting this week. A bit of personal responsibility is called for.

Here.

AudreyHepburn

Putinovsky wrote: »

What are you talking about?

When I asked you why black kids are always the victims of accidental shootings you replied and admitted that it was because of racial profiling. Yet now you are saying his skin colour is irrelevant??

I meant that in this particular case it's irrelevant, even his parents have said so.

But yes in a lot cases, it is the defining factor.

AudreyHepburn

end of the road wrote: »

its very relevant and everybody knows it. the fact that this happens a lot in america to kids who so happen to be black says a lot

In a lot of cases it is, but not in this one.

Even the parents say it wasn't a racially motivated shooting.

Putinovsky

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The parents of the child are adamant that the shooting wasn't a racial issue yet there are those on this thread who are Hell bent on making it a racial issue, so again, I'll say that those people are the racists. They are the ones who want to make every negative incident between black and white into a racially motivated issue and I don't understand that mentality.

Sorry but that is only the opinion of the parents. Maybe they genuinely do believe that it is nothing to do with race and that is their opinion. It doesn't in anyway change the facts of the case or the statistics.

If they were to look at the statistics they would see that every single youth victim of a mistaken police shooting is black. Most people will look at those statistics and say that colour MUST play some factor and that it was very likely to have been a factor here.

ShowMeTheCash

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

In their eyes, at that moment, he was armed.

So?
They still killed an un-armed kid!

You might feel the reasons behind may go some way to explain the incompetence, but incompetant people often make excuses.

FrostyJack

Putinovsky wrote: »

Emmmm, show me one incident where a white youth has been mistakenly shot dead by US police. Just one..

To play devils advocate it came up on first page of google search http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-teen-holding-wii-remote-shot-cops-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842

The more I read of this story it makes less sense. Why did a guy ring 911 when he thought it was a replica, why not take it off him. You can only surmise he thought it was real.

Putinovsky

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

In a lot of cases it is, but not in this one.

Even the parents say it wasn't a racially motivated shooting.

So the parents don't believe it was, so what? Parents can get things wrong.

FrostyJack

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

So?
They still killed an un-armed kid!

You might feel the reasons behind may go some way to explain the incompetence, but incompetant people often make excuses.

He wasn't unarmed, he had a gun that just didn't fire real bullets. Would it make any difference to you if it was real but was not loaded?

wexie

FrostyJack wrote: »

He wasn't unarmed, he had a gun that just didn't fire real bullets. Would it make any difference to you if it was real but was not loaded?

Or loaded with blanks, for all intents and purposes the officers HAD to treat it as a real weapon.

Witcher

Putinovsky wrote: »

If they were to look at the statistics they would see that every single youth victim of a mistaken police shooting is black.

Is this kid white enough?

Shot for having a wii remote in his hand;

http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/17/cop-shoots-17-year-old-boy-who-answers-d

Putinovsky

FrostyJack wrote: »

To play devils advocate it came up on first page of google search http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-teen-holding-wii-remote-shot-cops-front-door-family-lawyer-article-1.1619842

The more I read of this story it makes less sense. Why did a guy ring 911 when he thought it was a replica, why not take it off him. You can only surmise he thought it was real.

Unfortunate but I did specify 'kid', I suppose I said youth a number of times which could include young adults.

Isn't that the point though, he approached the matter differently because it was a black kid and he assumed a black kid is likely to be dangerous and carrying a gun.

Witcher

Putinovsky wrote: »

Unfortunate but I did specify 'kid', I suppose I said youth a number of times which could include young adults.

Of course, move the goalposts now. If he had been 10 you probably would have said he wasn't white enough.

A 17 year old is legally a child.

Pumpkinseeds

Don Kedick wrote: »

I haven't read the last few pages on this thread but the last thing I read from you was about the people in Ferguson and your post was very much about race.

Yes it was. I find it insane that things have gotten so out of hand there that a lot of black people say that they will be too frightened to leave their homes when the verdict is released and that a lot of white people with no weapons training, have gone out to buy guns because they are so afraid of the black community. So there's the potential for more deaths with white people shooting black people out of paranoia and black people attacking white people out of anger.

Mostly as a result of racial tension being stirred by people with ulterior motives, and by the sound of it a lot of it is being stirred up by outsiders. I can see how the previous post might have been misunderstood. What I meant is that as a result of the shooting of what was, lets face it, a scumbag getting killed, a lot of damage has been done to both sides of the community and when the verdict is released a lot more damage will be done.

Putinovsky

Strider wrote: »

Of course, move the goalposts now. If he had been 10 you probably would have said he wasn't white enough.

A 17 year old is legally a child.

I really don't have to, the statistics are still damning. A 17 year old is not considered a youth in the legal sense of the word but thats getting into semantics. And its not really relevant.

I am talking about children being shot dead. I am talking about the fact that black kids are not given the same 'delicate hand' as white kids. I am talking about US cops approaching black kids differently to white kids.

Don Kedick

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yes it was. I find it insane that things have gotten so out of hand there that a lot of black people say that they will be too frightened to leave their homes when the verdict is released and that a lot of white people with no weapons training, have gone out to buy guns because they are so afraid of the black community. So there's the potential for more deaths with white people shooting black people out of paranoia and black people attacking white people out of anger.

Mostly as a result of racial tension being stirred by people with ulterior motives, and by the sound of it a lot of it is being stirred up by outsiders. I can see how the previous post might have been misunderstood. What I meant is that as a result of the shooting of what was, lets face it, a scumbag getting killed, a lot of damage has been done to both sides of the community and when the verdict is released a lot more damage will be done.

Yeah and this shooting wont help matters.

Witcher

Putinovsky wrote: »

I really don't have to, the statistics are still damning. A 17 year old is not considered a youth in the legal sense of the word but thats getting into semantics. And its not really relevant.

I am talking about children being shot dead. I am talking about the fact that black kids are not given the same 'delicate hand' as white kids. I am talking about US cops approaching black kids differently to white kids.

A 17 year old is a child.

If you were looking for black kids shot by police you would include a 17 year old and don't say you wouldn't.

Trayvon Martin was 17 and we heard all about him being an innocent 'kid' so don't give me that sh1t that a 17 yo is not a kid. Christopher Roupe is not a kid in your opinion because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Putinovsky

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yes it was. I find it insane that things have gotten so out of hand there that a lot of black people say that they will be too frightened to leave their homes when the verdict is released and that a lot of white people with no weapons training, have gone out to buy guns because they are so afraid of the black community. So there's the potential for more deaths with white people shooting black people out of paranoia and black people attacking white people out of anger.

Oh those poor white people shooting dead innocent black people because they are so afraid of the angry black man.

Even when innocent black people are shot dead by nervous, trigger happy white individuals it is the fault of the black community.