Newstalk - Breakfast Show

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

That post really shows how little you know about hospitals and ICU beds.

You need 4 x trained ICU nurses for every ICU bed, not to mention other equipment. Even if the Govt. tomorrow opened an ICU only hospital with 1000 beds there’s not enough ICU nurses out there to staff them. There’s not enough to staff 10 new beds. Guess how many ICU-trained nurses are sitting on their holes doing nothing or are unemployed in Ireland right now? Zero.

You say get more beds like it’s flicking a switch. Ffs. :rolleyes:

And that’s why it’s scaremongering.

Really?........and yet the biggest ever budget in the history of the State, over 4 billion euro, was given to the Dept of Health for the next year with the promise of hundreds of new beds and 16K extra staff!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/budget-2021-pledges-hundreds-of-hospital-beds-thousands-of-health-staff-1.4379834


So if the ordinary citizens of Ireland, whose taxes are paying for this increase in spending are asking why the health services are such a shambles, its hardly scaremongering!! Just because something doesn't tally with your opinion does not mean people cannot call out what they see!
Are we expected to just lay around saying 'yeah yeah sure that's grand, throw 4 billion euro to Health' but not ask why there is not already an attempt made to increase staffing and critical care/ICU beds?


And are you saying in the 73,000 people who responded to "Irelands Call" not one of them was qualified to work in ICU or could not have been trained up since March??

Up to August only 209 out of 73K applicants have been employed in any capacity!! https://www.thejournal.ie/on-call-for-ireland-workers-5170155-Aug2020/

I applied in April for contact tracing. I have a background in senior administration. I contacted the HSE numerous times about what was happening and was told there were no vacancies and recruitment was closed!


Calling people out as scaremongerers when the dogs in the street can now see what a mess this is and that questions need to be answered of the Dept of Health and more importantly of Paul Reid is disingenuous at the very least.

Cole

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

But, she has been brave and in my view quite right about the over reaction to Covid. The majority of the sheep in media are just scaremongering in their echo chamber.

So now we're applying the word "brave" to Ciara Kelly for using a health/social/national/international crisis as an opportunity to raise her own profile.

But "echo chamber" is an appropriate term to use for some of the discussion on the forum...especially some of the Newstalk threads it seems. I mean, yes do criticise the gov/NPHET/HSE for things they've made a balls of, but there's a lot of laying all the blame at their doors, while suggesting that the 'man in the street/ordinary citizens' have no responsibility at all for the mess we're in.

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

Really?........and yet the biggest ever budget in the history of the State, over 4 billion euro, was given to the Dept of Health for the next year with the promise of hundreds of new beds and 16K extra staff!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/budget-2021-pledges-hundreds-of-hospital-beds-thousands-of-health-staff-1.4379834


So if the ordinary citizens of Ireland, whose taxes are paying for this increase in spending are asking why the health services are such a shambles, its hardly scaremongering!! Just because something doesn't tally with your opinion does not mean people cannot call out what they see!
Are we expected to just lay around saying 'yeah yeah sure that's grand, throw 4 billion euro to Health' but not ask why there is not already an attempt made to increase staffing and critical care/ICU beds?

And are you saying in the 73,000 people who responded to "Irelands Call" not one of them was qualified to work in ICU or could not have been trained up since March??

Up to August only 209 out of 73K applicants have been employed in any capacity!! https://www.thejournal.ie/on-call-for-ireland-workers-5170155-Aug2020/

I applied in April for contact tracing. I have a background in senior administration. I contacted the HSE numerous times about what was happening and was told there were no vacancies and recruitment was closed!


Calling people out as scaremongerers when the dogs in the street can now see what a mess this is and that questions need to be answered of the Dept of Health and more importantly of Paul Reid is disingenuous at the very least.

Not sure what many of your points above have to do with the current crisis TBH.

Did I say the Health Service wasn't a shambles? No.
Did I say there aren't questions to be asked? No.
Did I say the communication hasn't been anything but a complete mess? No.

But you're moving the goalposts dramatically there on what the original point was, and remains - that our health system is not on a par with those countries who have less restrictions at the moment, and that's why "we are where we are".

You can't fix as broken and as complicated a system as the Irish Healthcare system overnight, and to think otherwise is incredibly naive. We are paying now for years of chronic waste and underinvestment in certain areas.

And there's a big difference in saying we should leave everything open (which is what Ciara kelly is saying) and saying there aren't questions to be asked. You're the one being disingenuous now by attempting to twist what she said into something completely different, as is Ciara Kelly by pretending she doesn't know the chronic ICU bed issues (staff, resources, space, and physical beds).

The average across developed countries is 11.5 beds per 100,000 people. Ireland has under 6.5. That's the problem.

And talking about future investement etc. does nothing NOW.

ButtersSuki

Cole wrote: »

So now we're applying the word "brave" to Ciara Kelly for using a health/social/national/international crisis as an opportunity to raise her own profile.

But "echo chamber" is an appropriate term to use for some of the discussion on the forum...especially some of the Newstalk threads it seems. I mean, yes do criticise the gov/NPHET/HSE for things they've made a balls of, but there's a lot of laying all the blame at their doors, while suggesting that the 'man in the street/ordinary citizens' have no responsibility at all for the mess we're in.

You're not allowed question Ciara Kelly in any capacity in the eyes of some posters. Don't you know that?

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

Really?........and yet the biggest ever budget in the history of the State, over 4 billion euro, was given to the Dept of Health for the next year with the promise of hundreds of new beds and 16K extra staff!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/budget-2021-pledges-hundreds-of-hospital-beds-thousands-of-health-staff-1.4379834


So if the ordinary citizens of Ireland, whose taxes are paying for this increase in spending are asking why the health services are such a shambles, its hardly scaremongering!! Just because something doesn't tally with your opinion does not mean people cannot call out what they see!
Are we expected to just lay around saying 'yeah yeah sure that's grand, throw 4 billion euro to Health' but not ask why there is not already an attempt made to increase staffing and critical care/ICU beds?


And are you saying in the 73,000 people who responded to "Irelands Call" not one of them was qualified to work in ICU or could not have been trained up since March??

Up to August only 209 out of 73K applicants have been employed in any capacity!! https://www.thejournal.ie/on-call-for-ireland-workers-5170155-Aug2020/

I applied in April for contact tracing. I have a background in senior administration. I contacted the HSE numerous times about what was happening and was told there were no vacancies and recruitment was closed!


Calling people out as scaremongerers when the dogs in the street can now see what a mess this is and that questions need to be answered of the Dept of Health and more importantly of Paul Reid is disingenuous at the very least.

On your point on training/retraining - how long do you think it takes to train to be an ICU Nurse?

And guess what? During a pandemic - when the system is already stretched to breaking point - is not exactly the optimum time to train or retrain people. You don't have the time, the resources, or the people required to do the training!

And again, I'm not excusing the Ireland's Call shambles for this, but don't conflate that with a completely separate issue in an attempt to make a point.

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

She’s done more than her fair amount of scaremongering herself. She keeps using the example that we are going for more restrictions than any other EU country; when she knows full well the reason for that is because of the acute bed (and ICU beds in particular) shortage and in Ireland, and comparative ratio to all other EU countries.

thats the official line given ( lack of ICU beds ) alright

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

That post really shows how little you know about hospitals and ICU beds.

You need 4 x trained ICU nurses for every ICU bed, not to mention other equipment. Even if the Govt. tomorrow opened an ICU only hospital with 1000 beds there’s not enough ICU nurses out there to staff them. There’s not enough to staff 10 new beds. Guess how many ICU-trained nurses are sitting on their holes doing nothing or are unemployed in Ireland right now? Zero.

You say get more beds like it’s flicking a switch. Ffs. :rolleyes:

And that’s why it’s scaremongering.

well the best solution to all of that is obviously to cripple the economy

Cole

Mad_maxx wrote: »

thats the official line given ( lack of ICU beds ) alright

So what's the 'real' reason?

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

thats the official line given ( lack of ICU beds ) alright

Enlighten me please as to your reasons then. I’m all ears.

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well the best solution to all of that is obviously to cripple the economy

Yeah, that’s what I said. :rolleyes:

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Enlighten me please as to your reasons then. I’m all ears.

the reasons for the extremely draconian lockdown ?

SEPT 23 1989

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well the best solution to all of that is obviously to cripple the economy

I don't think the latest lockdown will cripple the economy

Too many big money making businesses are running

It's not like the beginning of the year

Mad_maxx

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I don't think the latest lockdown will cripple the economy

Too many big money making businesses are running

It's not like the beginning of the year

multinational sector remains strong but the small and medium business sector is suffering hugely

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

Really?........and yet the biggest ever budget in the history of the State, over 4 billion euro, was given to the Dept of Health for the next year with the promise of hundreds of new beds and 16K extra staff!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/budget-2021-pledges-hundreds-of-hospital-beds-thousands-of-health-staff-1.4379834


So if the ordinary citizens of Ireland, whose taxes are paying for this increase in spending are asking why the health services are such a shambles, its hardly scaremongering!! Just because something doesn't tally with your opinion does not mean people cannot call out what they see!
Are we expected to just lay around saying 'yeah yeah sure that's grand, throw 4 billion euro to Health' but not ask why there is not already an attempt made to increase staffing and critical care/ICU beds?


And are you saying in the 73,000 people who responded to "Irelands Call" not one of them was qualified to work in ICU or could not have been trained up since March??

Up to August only 209 out of 73K applicants have been employed in any capacity!! https://www.thejournal.ie/on-call-for-ireland-workers-5170155-Aug2020/

I applied in April for contact tracing. I have a background in senior administration. I contacted the HSE numerous times about what was happening and was told there were no vacancies and recruitment was closed!


Calling people out as scaremongerers when the dogs in the street can now see what a mess this is and that questions need to be answered of the Dept of Health and more importantly of Paul Reid is disingenuous at the very least.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

thats the official line given ( lack of ICU beds ) alright

Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?

Maybe that's not quite a fair conclusion?

The shambles of Ireland's Call is quite frankly inexcusable. The general standard of administration in this country is in the gutter. Yeah some great dedicated individuals, but an awful lot of incompetents there, and some medical consultants who have stitched up the system to suit themselves. People in this country get promoted to levels they are not remotely capable of functioning in, and we have ironies like a Supreme Court Judge who has no sense of judgement. God give me patience, I try to do the right thing by this pandemic, but I do not entirely trust the competence of many in their professional roles of authority.

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe that's not quite a fair conclusion?

The shambles of Ireland's Call is quite frankly inexcusable. The general standard of administration in this country is in the gutter. Yeah some great dedicated individuals, but an awful lot of incompetents there, and some medical consultants who have stitched up the system to suit themselves. People in this country get promoted to levels they are not remotely capable of functioning in, and we have ironies like a Supreme Court Judge who has no sense of judgement. God give me patience, I try to do the right thing by this pandemic, but I do not entirely trust the competence of many in their professional roles of authority.

And again, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you say esp. towards the latter end of your post, but that's got nothing to do with solving an immediate ICU bed crisis caused by years of historical underinvestment in CERTAIN PARTS of the Health System in Ireland going back decades.

No question we've pumped billions into it over the years, but not in the right areas; and for this mismanagement the blame undoubtedly and ultimately lies with our politicians and political parties. As you can hopefully see now, I am not a govt. apologist.

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?

been wearing a mask since march as ive mild ashtma

never heard of G.O.D until the summer gone by and think she comes across as deranged

does that answer your questions ?

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

been wearing a mask since march as ive mild ashtma

never heard of G.O.D until the summer gone by and think she comes across as deranged

does that answer your questions ?

It answers my question but doesn't explain your earlier comments.

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

And again, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you say towards the latter end of your post, but that's got nothing to do with solving an immediate ICU bed crisis caused by years of historical underinvestment in CERTAIN PARTS of the Health System in Ireland going back decades.

No question we've pumped billions into it over the years, but not in the right areas; and for this mismanagement the blame undoubtedly and ultimately lies with our politicians and political parties. As you can hopefully see now, I am not a govt. apologist.

its all very well saying the politicians should have fixed the health service but fixing it means firing people and changing work practices and that means loosing votes

ireland is very small , if you change for example the work week of nurses ( 3 X 13 hr days ) which suits nurses but is terrible for patients , you then not only annoy the nurses ( who have always had huge public support ) working in the health service , you risk loosing votes from many of their relatives

we say we want the health service fixed but not if it means my brother who does the push this button job a nodding toy could do gets a pay cut or worse

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

It answers my question but doesn't explain your earlier comments.

didnt realise those two other topics were related to anything i said earlier

remind me what specifically you are referring to now that you know im not an anti mask activist or a fan of gemma the mad ?

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?

on the contrary I wear masks 100% of the time and have absolutely no problem with them. I actually have a lovely collection of them! Some made by friends, some bought, some sent over from a friend in the UK. I lost my job recently, live alone and have no friends or family around me at all so I am very safe in terms of virus spread and also badly affected mentally by these lockdowns.



I don't even know who Gemma O Doherty is? You will not find one post in my 10 years on Boards about someone called Gemma O Doherty.


I simply think there is no excuse for the state of the HSE given the amount of money invested in it. If its not working get a new Minister, preferably someone with a background in running a business. Or fire Paul Reid and recruit someone with the business experience and the balls of Michael O Leary to overhaul it. Its a big black hole into which billions of euro disappears into with no result. We are paying the price for this now.

Mad_maxx

i believe the reason for the lockdown is due to the incredible fear politicians have of the loss of face ( which means loss of votes ) which might come if a relatively large number of older people died from Covid 19 , anything which effects elderly people in a negative way is kryptonite for politicians in this country as while a dead person can no longer vote , their relatives can , the media coverage might well translate into a huge hysteria about " killing granny " and no politician wants that in their epitaph , its always been the case that politicians in ireland repeatedly ignore younger voters so its the young who are again taking the hit despite not being at risk form this virus

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

on the contrary I wear masks 100% of the time and have absolutely no problem with them. I actually have a lovely collection of them! Some made by friends, some bought, some sent over from a friend in the UK. I lost my job recently, live alone and have no friends or family around me at all so I am very safe in terms of virus spread and also badly affected mentally by these lockdowns.



I don't even know who Gemma O Doherty is? You will not find one post in my 10 years on Boards about someone called Gemma O Doherty.


I simply think there is no excuse for the state of the HSE given the amount of money invested in it. If its not working get a new Minister, preferably someone with a background in running a business. Or fire Paul Reid and recruit someone with the business experience and the balls of Michael O Leary to overhaul it. Its a big black hole into which billions of euro disappears into with no result. We are paying the price for this now.

And again, I'm not disagreeing that the system has been badly run. But you earlier were supporting Ciara Kelly's irresponsible IMO comments about lockdown when we don't have the resources in ICU to stay open.

I simply asked not to conflate separate issues.

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i believe the reason for the lockdown is due to the incredible fear politicians have of the loss of face ( which means loss of votes ) which might come if a relatively large number of older people died from Covid 19 , anything which effects elderly people in a negative way is kryptonite for politicians in this country as while a dead person can no longer vote , their relatives can , the media coverage might well translate into a huge hysteria about " killing granny " and no politician wants that in their epitaph , its always been the case that politicians in ireland repeatedly ignore younger voters so its the young who are again taking the hit despite not being at risk form this virus

That's just nonsense. You're effectively saying all the Governments in the world have the same basic thinking and all are looking down for political gain - that's real conspiracy theory stuff now. It's honestly like some of you really have no idea how serious this virus is.
Do you honestly think the Govt. want to be in lockdown after all the negativity and reaction to the last one? It absolutely is the last resort for them.
And the young are at risk, again do yourself a favour and read any of the emerging articles on long-term respiratory and cardiac effects catching the virus has on the younger population, not to mention the fact that they are the ones most repsonsible for spreading it at the moment.

I work in a hospital. I've seen stuff since February of this never I never imagined I would see. We've been incredibly lucky so far, that's all, and that luck is fast running out.

generalgerry

Deleted User wrote: »

Or fire Paul Reid and recruit someone with the business experience and the balls of Michael O Leary to overhaul it. Its a big black hole into which billions of euro disappears into with no result. We are paying the price for this now.

I think this commonly held assertion is completely blind to the fact that anybody who is in the charge of the HSE has their hands tied by unions and vested interests. To make the right decisions that would improve the HSE and get value for money for the taxpayer and patient, you would need to forgo all of the agreements that have been put in place to protect the terms and conditions of the employees.

Unfortunately, most of the vested interests care more about self interest than they do about patient health. Don't ever fool yourself into thinking that all people and organisation put life and health ahead of their own pocket. They don't. Any objective analysis of our health system bears this out.

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

That's just nonsense. You're effectively saying all the Governments in the world have the same basic thinking and all are looking down for political gain - that's real conspiracy theory stuff now. It's honestly like some of you really have no idea how serious this virus is.
Do you honestly think the Govt. want to be in lockdown after all the negativity and reaction to the last one? It absolutely is the last resort for them.
And the young are at risk, again do yourself a favour and read any of the emerging articles on long-term respiratory and cardiac effects catching the virus has on the younger population, not to mention the fact that they are the ones most repsonsible for spreading it at the moment.

I work in a hospital. I've seen stuff since February of this never I never imagined I would see. We've been incredibly lucky so far, that's all, and that luck is fast running out.

wasnt referring to the lockdown earlier in the year which every major western country put in place , we didnt know back then how serious this would be and there were predictions it could be a spanish flu level of mortality

that turned out not to be the case and now ireland is very much an extreme outlier in terms of shutting things down

this isnt a very dangerous virus for the vast majority of people , there will of course be a minority of cases where young people do end up in hospital but only one person under twenty five has died so far , thats a fact

Cole

Deleted User wrote: »

Or fire Paul Reid and recruit someone with the business experience and the balls of Michael O Leary to overhaul it.

The old Irish chestnut of..."we just need to get rid of [insert name of individual] and get Michael O'Leary in to run [insert name of organisation] and he'll sort it out...easy peasy.

Brendan Bendar

Cole wrote: »

The old Irish chestnut of..."we just need to get rid of [insert name of individual] and get Michael O'Leary in to run [insert name of organisation] and he'll sort it out...easy peasy.

He heh..... O’Leary could no more ‘sort out’ the HSE than the man in the moon.

Why


The Unions..... they can’t, in that scenario, be beaten.

Not. Possible.

Mad_maxx

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

He heh..... O’Leary could no more ‘sort out’ the HSE than the man in the moon.

Why


The Unions..... they can’t, in that scenario, be beaten.

Not. Possible.

of course they can be beaten but RTE backs unions to the hilt and will trash any politician who tries to walk on public sector union toes , the public need to get on side with reformist politicians if they want change , up to now we have just allowed ourselves to be seduced by nurses on 50 k claiming they are on minimum wage etc

generalgerry

ButtersSuki wrote: »

That's just nonsense. You're effectively saying all the Governments in the world have the same basic thinking and all are looking down for political gain - that's real conspiracy theory stuff now. It's honestly like some of you really have no idea how serious this virus is.
Do you honestly think the Govt. want to be in lockdown after all the negativity and reaction to the last one? It absolutely is the last resort for them.

Given that you work in the health service, I would be genuinely interested in your opinions. From my point of view I don't think this virus is anything worse than a bad flu year. I know a few people who had it, all perfectly fine, bar one who had it bad like a bad flu. Few people died in the nursing home near by, but people die in the nursing home every day. I would like to believe that everything we are doing is necessary and I'm being patriotic by adhering to the rules. But I believe that it IS being exaggerated, and we are being railroaded in to getting mandatory vaccinations, when the vaccine is inevitably available. How is what you are currently experiencing different from the usual Irish hospital experience at this time of year?

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

wasnt referring to the lockdown earlier in the year which every major western country put in place , we didnt know back then how serious this would be and there were predictions it could be a spanish flu level of mortality

that turned out not to be the case and now ireland is very much an extreme outlier in terms of shutting things down

this isnt a very dangerous virus for the vast majority of people , there will of course be a minority of cases where young people do end up in hospital but only one person under twenty five has died so far , thats a fact

Sigh.

Did I say young people are dying? No.

The two things young people are doing right now:
1) being spreaders/superspreaders
2) catching themselves and though they may recover in the short-term we don't know what the long-term implications are for catching it yet, except that the signs so far are not exactly encouraging re. respiratory and cardiac damage

Do you read anything or just throw out Gemma O'Dogherty-like soundbytes unchecked? You described her as deranged earlier, but you sound a lot like her TBH.

This isn't a very dangerous virus for the vast majority of people? What exactly are you basing that on?

We're not an extreme outlier by any means at all. DO you know how many cities or regions within countries in the world are in lockdown right now, incl. many with populations greater than our whole country?
The Czech Republic announced similar plans on Wednesday. Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Spain have set regional restrictions this month. Paris (population approx. 7.6m) has a nightly curfew. Madrid residents can't leave the city, and people can't enter - a lockdown in all but name (population 6.7m). Catalonia is in partial lockdown since October 15th, as is Navarre. The Dutch are in a 4-week partial lockdown. It goes on. Israel were actually the first to impose a second lockdown btw, not us.

AND AGAIN, AS YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS REPEATEDLY - OUR HOSPITAL SYSTEM CAN'T COPE IF THINGS GET ANY WORSE - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? THAT'S WHY WE ARE IN LOCKDOWN, NOT BECAUSE LEO WANTS SOME VOTES.

We've had to impose stricter conditions than other countries because our health system is worse than theirs. How difficult is this to understand?

Mad_maxx

generalgerry wrote: »

Given that you work in the health service, I would be genuinely interested in your opinions. From my point of view I don't think this virus is anything worse than a bad flu year. I know a few people who had it, all perfectly fine, bar one who had it bad like a bad flu. Few people died in the nursing home near by, but people die in the nursing home every day. I would like to believe that everything we are doing is necessary and I'm being patriotic by adhering to the rules. But I believe that it IS being exaggerated, and we are being railroaded in to getting mandatory vaccinations, when the vaccine is inevitably available. How is what you are currently experiencing different from the usual Irish hospital experience at this time of year?

the primary school ( 25 students in entire school ) 50 metres over the road from where my mother lives is closed as two pupils from the same family have it , the parents both tested negative , its the talk of the parish but apparently neither of the kids are especially unwell

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Sigh.

Did I say young people are dying? No.

The two things young people are doing right now:
1) being spreaders/superspreaders
2) catching themselves and though they may recover in the short-term we don't know what the long-term implications are for catching it yet, except that the signs so far are not exactly encouraging re. respiratory and cardiac damage

Do you read anything or just throw out Gemma O'Dogherty-like soundbytes unchecked? You described her as deranged earlier, but you sound a lot like her TBH.

This isn't a very dangerous virus for the vast majority of people? What exactly are you basing that on?

We're not an extreme outlier by any means at all. DO you know how many cities or regions within countries in the world are in lockdown right now, incl. many with populations greater than our whole country?
The Czech Republic announced similar plans on Wednesday. Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Spain have set regional restrictions this month. Paris (population approx. 7.6m) has a nightly curfew. Madrid residents can't leave the city, and people can't enter - a lockdown in all but name (population 6.7m). Catalonia is in partial lockdown since October 15th, as is Navarre. The Dutch are in a 4-week partial lockdown. It goes on. Israel were actually the first to impose a second lockdown btw, not us.

AND AGAIN, AS YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THIS REPEATEDLY - OUR HOSPITAL SYSTEM CAN'T COPE IF THINGS GET ANY WORSE - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? THAT'S WHY WE ARE IN LOCKDOWN, NOT BECAUSE LEO WANTS SOME VOTES.

We've had to impose stricter conditions than other countries because our health system is worse than theirs. How difficult is this to understand?

im basing it on the facts , hardly anyone under fifty has died from it , there isnt enough confirmed data to say if long term effects are a reality , thats mere speculation so far

enough with the Gemma Doherty label , makes you look ridiculous , call me ciara kelly too if it makes you feel better but no one will take you serious bar twitter drones and this isnt twitter

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im basing it on the facts , hardly anyone under fifty has died from it , there isnt enough confirmed data to say if long term effects are a reality , thats mere speculation so far

enough with the Gemma Doherty label , makes you look ridiculous , call me ciara kelly too if it makes you feel better but no one will take you serious bar twitter drones and this isnt twitter

You’re right, I’m the one coming across as crazy here. :rolleyes:

ButtersSuki

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im basing it on the facts , hardly anyone under fifty has died from it , there isnt enough confirmed data to say if long term effects are a reality , thats mere speculation so far

enough with the Gemma Doherty label , makes you look ridiculous , call me ciara kelly too if it makes you feel better but no one will take you serious bar twitter drones and this isnt twitter

As an FYI, a 36 year old doctor died in the Mater Public earlier this year from Covid.
But you know better.

zell12

Has Ciara Kelly been broadcasting from her hot press at all recently? Remember she did get Covid19 herself and broadcast from there

Mad_maxx

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As an FYI, a 36 year old doctor died in the Mater Public earlier this year from Covid.
But you know better.

did i say nobody has died from that age demographic ?

i said one person under twenty five has died from covid

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As an FYI, a 36 year old doctor died in the Mater Public earlier this year from Covid.
But you know better.

you come across as very combative in your arguments, and quite aggressive.


I am not getting into any of this with you as you are on one big angry roll in your posts and constantly making references to Gemma O Doherty which I just dont get.



I never mentioned Ciara Kelly in my post at all by the way. You may work in the medical field but it doesn't mean to get to shout everyone else down. We are all suffering at this stage as a result of Covid. Calm down and enjoy your evening.

ButtersSuki

Deleted User wrote: »

you come across as very combative in your arguments, and quite aggressive.


I am not getting into any of this with you as you are on one big angry roll in your posts and constantly making references to Gemma O Doherty which I just dont get.



I never mentioned Ciara Kelly in my post at all by the way. You may work in the medical field but it doesn't mean to get to shout everyone else down. We are all suffering at this stage as a result of Covid. Calm down and enjoy your evening.

Lol, ok hun xoxo

generalgerry

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As an FYI, a 36 year old doctor died in the Mater Public earlier this year from Covid. But you know better.

That's not true. The doctor that died in the Mater hospital was 59.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53501389

A Dublin hospital doctor who died with Covid-19 after treating patients with the disease "lost his life to his profession," his daughter has said. Dr Syed Waqqar Ali died in Dublin's Mater Hospital after spending three months in intensive care, where he was treated by his hospital colleagues.

His daughter described him as "brave" and "extremely dedicated" to his job. The Mater Hospital also paid tribute, saying he had provided "selfless emergency care to Covid-19 patients". Dr Ali, who was 59-years-old, lived in Tyrrelstown, Dublin, with his wife and five children, the youngest of whom is eight.

A 36 old doctor died of suspected COVID died in Belfast earlier this year. That's probably what you're thinking of.

ButtersSuki

generalgerry wrote: »

That's not true. The doctor that died in the Mater hospital was 59.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53501389



A 36 old doctor died of suspected COVID died in Belfast earlier this year. That's probably what you're thinking of.

I’m referring to a different doctor.

DrSerious3

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I’m referring to a different doctor.

You should debate in a more civilised way, you might make people change their minds if you weren't so rude.

ButtersSuki

DrSerious3 wrote: »

You should debate in a more civilised way, you might make people change their minds if you weren't so rude.

What is so rude about that post? Seriously?

DrSerious3

ButtersSuki wrote: »

What is so rude about that post? Seriously?

Accusing everyone who doesnt share your exact view as supporters of Gemma O'Doherty, for example. There is a spectrum of opinion, most of which is well-intentioned. I am no expert and I am willing to have my mind changed by facts but not by patronising comments and insults.

DeanAustin

Personally, I think it’s a good thing that Kelly is talking about no lockdown. We need a dissenting voice in the mainstream media. And why does it have to be about attention getting? To me, it’s quite a brave thing to do knowing that your view is the minority view but still putting it out there.

Why can’t people take her at face value? Discourse is really in the sewer at the moment because most people are assuming some sort of sinister motive behind the opposing view to their own.

ButtersSuki

DrSerious3 wrote: »

Accusing everyone who doesnt share your exact view as supporters of Gemma O'Doherty, for example. There is a spectrum of opinion, most of which is well-intentioned. I am no expert and I am willing to have my mind changed by facts but not by patronising comments and insults.

I didn't accuse "everyone" actually, I made a comment directed at two posters which wasn't technically an accusation. I said:
Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?
Which isn't an accusation; it's me thinking aloud, and being sarcastic. I'm guessing you missed the nuance of that?

As for the spectrum of opinion being paved with good intentions (I'm paraphrasing), there's a well-known quote that can apply to that.

Also, I'm sorry if after 9 months of repeating myself on this that my patience is wearing a little thin with people coming out with crazy stuff, so if you find that rude, apologies.

As for facts, I quoted many yesterday with regard to lockdown in other cities, regions,a nd countries. Did you read any of those?

ButtersSuki

DeanAustin wrote: »

Personally, I think it’s a good thing that Kelly is talking about no lockdown. We need a dissenting voice in the mainstream media. And why does it have to be about attention getting? To me, it’s quite a brave thing to do knowing that your view is the minority view but still putting it out there.

Why can’t people take her at face value? Discourse is really in the sewer at the moment because most people are assuming some sort of sinister motive behind the opposing view to their own.

It's very difficult to take her seriously on this because she is presenting one side of the argument to make her point. She is saying no-one else is in lockdown or the level of lockdown we are in, neither of which are actually true - see my earlier posts on this - but let's say it was.

Here's the problem: Ciara Kelly as a former GP would understand the Healthcare system more than the layperson. She is fully aware that the reason we are in lockdown is because of a chronic bed shortage in this country and a significantly below average ICU bed per capita rate (again, I've provided the stats on this in an earlier post) compared to our European counterparts, but refuses to acknowledge this when presenting her point above. What that means is that those countries can stay "open" longer as they are significantly better equipped to cope with a rise in infections and deaths than we are.

And that's why she has a credibility issue here and people think she's doing it for attention.

DrSerious3

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I didn't accuse "everyone" actually, I made a comment directed at two posters which wasn't technically an accusation. I said:
Why do I get the feeling neither of you wear masks and agree with the musings of Gemma O’Doherty?
Which isn't an accusation; it's me thinking aloud, and being sarcastic. I'm guessing you missed the nuance of that?

As for the spectrum of opinion being paved with good intentions (I'm paraphrasing), there's a well-known quote that can apply to that.

Also, I'm sorry if after 9 months of repeating myself on this that my patience is wearing a little thin with people coming out with crazy stuff, so if you find that rude, apologies.

As for facts, I quoted many yesterday with regard to lockdown in other cities, regions,a nd countries. Did you read any of those?

There you go again.

ButtersSuki

generalgerry wrote: »

Given that you work in the health service, I would be genuinely interested in your opinions. From my point of view I don't think this virus is anything worse than a bad flu year. I know a few people who had it, all perfectly fine, bar one who had it bad like a bad flu. Few people died in the nursing home near by, but people die in the nursing home every day. I would like to believe that everything we are doing is necessary and I'm being patriotic by adhering to the rules. But I believe that it IS being exaggerated, and we are being railroaded in to getting mandatory vaccinations, when the vaccine is inevitably available. How is what you are currently experiencing different from the usual Irish hospital experience at this time of year?

Hi,

Thanks for your questions. I'll attempt to answer all of them as honestly as I can.

It's an awful lot worse than the flu. I'm thrilled for you (sounds sarcastic, I promise you that it isn't) those you know who have contracted it had a relatively easy experience. I've seen the other end. I've seen otherwise perfectly healthy people die very quickly simply because they caught the virus. I've seen things I can't discuss here for a variety of reasons, but none of it was pleasant.

I assure you it is not being exaggerated. We're dealing with a once in a lifetime medical emergency and catastrophe.

Why are the coming months so dangerous? Because flu alone normally takes up anywhere from 50-70% of public hospital capacity from Oct-March (ish). Now throw a global pandemic on top of that and the system can collapse very quickly, esp. in one with chronic bed and ICU bed shortages.

And it's the knock-on effects. If there are no ICU beds many regular procedures have to stop. Talk to oncologists about their patients and what's happening there now, as testing has stalled.

From a practical perspective, capacity has also been reduced, as we now have more social distancing on wards etc. Bearing in mind we already have less beds than other countries, that's a real problem.

It goes on and on.....................

It's a perfect storm of sh*t, and we're staring into the face of it.

I don't think there'll be mandatory vaccinations, but speaking from where I'm standing I think you'd be crazy not to take one if available (obviously do your research in advance etc.).

I'm going to walk the dog for a bit now before I have to go in later. I hope that answers your questions. If you have any more, fire away and I'll reply later if I can.

ButtersSuki

DrSerious3 wrote: »

There you go again.

Are you actually serious?