NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

fibrefreak

Hi rob808

The money is not coming from the EU - its coming from the Irish taxpayer - please look at the NBP and EU SAG documentation. But the EU do have a say on how you can spend money on major infrastructure rollouts. It is because of this that the end result will be a fibre/radio blend and which one you get will depend on where you live. The EU will not sign off on a plan that is not shown to be economically viable and their guidelines clearly state that you cannot favour one technology over another.

Eircom are quoting 400million for 300,000 homes.
As the industry goes, this is an incredibly low figure. Ask Gigaclear in the UK how much it costs to deliver fibre to your front gate (self install from there) when you are Ofcom approved (no planning permission required) and you cherrypick your areas. They cant do it for that money so I have to question how eircom will do it.

In any case, eircom may never deliver this.
By saying that they plan to install 300,000 homes, they have just removed them from the NBP.
In other words, they are destroying the Siro business case (and making it more likely that the remaining properties will be fed over wireless)

its not like eircom are considered world class in fast broadband rollout timetables.

Avada

In fairness to Eircom (and I'm not a fan), their fttc rollout has been incredibly quick. Also, I'm pretty sure there is EU funding available for Broadband rollout.

rob808

fibrefreak wrote: »

Hi rob808

The money is not coming from the EU - its coming from the Irish taxpayer - please look at the NBP and EU SAG documentation. But the EU do have a say on how you can spend money on major infrastructure rollouts. It is because of this that the end result will be a fibre/radio blend and which one you get will depend on where you live. The EU will not sign off on a plan that is not shown to be economically viable and their guidelines clearly state that you cannot favour one technology over another.

Eircom are quoting 400million for 300,000 homes.
As the industry goes, this is an incredibly low figure. Ask Gigaclear in the UK how much it costs to deliver fibre to your front gate (self install from there) when you are Ofcom approved (no planning permission required) and you cherrypick your areas. They cant do it for that money so I have to question how eircom will do it.

In any case, eircom may never deliver this.
By saying that they plan to install 300,000 homes, they have just removed them from the NBP.
In other words, they are destroying the Siro business case (and making it more likely that the remaining properties will be fed over wireless)

its not like eircom are considered world class in fast broadband rollout timetables.

It European development fund and Eircom have being doing trails for about 2 years about FTTH and it cost of rolling it out and looking at Eircom roll out of vdsl. I can't not see them not doing the 300,000 house time will tell.It is gona cost the tax payer like every other NBP so getting it right is the best thing to do because we won't have to keep going back and back again.
The other thing they would use the 1.2million poles they own so no digging up roads which would set the cost going up to high.
The wisp especially want the 30mb lower even doh it the EU target not our goverment for 2020.Im hoping Eircom or siro win at least there not trying to keep lowering the speed like wisp keep doing before it was 30mb down and 10 up and now it 30mb down and 6 up and still there not happy now they want it lower and no fibre in the NBP at all even doh that the best.

rob808

Avada wrote: »

In fairness to Eircom (and I'm not a fan), their fttc rollout has been incredibly quick. Also, I'm pretty sure there is EU funding available for Broadband rollout.

There is Germany getting 3 billion for there NBP.

AmilcarAlho

I'm sure this has been said before, but we are talking about investing in a fibre network, akin to the rural electrification that happened in the last century, and similar to that, a network that will be there for the next 50 to 100 years, with a potential to scale much greater than copper or radio.

If radio is deployed instead of fibre, in 50/10 years time both the DP and CPE will have to be upgraded to avail of greater speeds as required by users/NBP. On top of that, the backbone/core will gave to be based on fibre,as using radio for core will be more expensive, slower and prone to faults.

With products and services going the way of the "cloud", bandwidth and latency will be essential, something wireless does not provide in scale.

bk

Here is the problem with the WISPs, they simply aren't a future proof solution.

If we subsidise rural FTTH, then the job is done for the next 100 years.

On the other hand if we subsidise WISPs to the tune of hundreds of millions, they might just about match to give you 30Mb/s (and that is a very big maybe).

But we will be right back at the same place 5 years again, when everyone in urban Ireland has 1Gb/s and rural are stuck on 30Mb/s with no ability to upgrade. We will be right back at square one again, now financing a NBP round 3 for hundreds of millions more, but this time specifically for FTTH, as wireless will never be able to do faster speeds.

We just need to do it right this time.

xxyyzz

AmilcarAlho wrote: »

I'm sure this has been said before, but we are talking about investing in a fibre network, akin to the rural electrification that happened in the last century, and similar to that, a network that will be there for the next 50 to 100 years, with a potential to scale much greater than copper or radio.

This, this and this x1000
What do people mean by economically viable?? The potential this unlocks is limitless outside of urban areas, it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

I have some sympathy for WISPS, the need was there for them when no other viable solution was available to rural dwellers. They saw a gap in the market and filled it, but if FTTH is an option, then Sayonara to them. Incorporating them in the NBP would have been like providing 12V batteries to houses during rural electrification. They shouldn't even be considered.

Johnboy1951

There are times when a 'down-vote' option is sadly missed on boards.

KOR101

It really is very unlikely that the NBP will prescribe particular technologies. It will ask for tenders to meet certain objectives. What remains to be seen is whether specific measures of demonstrable future proofing is including. The government can force a fibre solution that way. It's hard to see how the WISPs can succeed in changing the basic EU objectives.

dbit

KOR101 wrote: »

It really is very unlikely that the NBP will prescribe particular technologies. It will ask for tenders to meet certain objectives. What remains to be seen is whether specific measures of demonstrable future proofing is including. The government can force a fibre solution that way. It's hard to see how the WISPs can succeed in changing the basic EU objectives.

Agree with you , but it is Ireland we are the land of the shortcuts , haircuts and all things cuts. One nation that has the "Cut of things" in full swing lolz.

fibrefreak

KOR101 wrote: »

It really is very unlikely that the NBP will prescribe particular technologies. It will ask for tenders to meet certain objectives. What remains to be seen is whether specific measures of demonstrable future proofing is including. The government can force a fibre solution that way. It's hard to see how the WISPs can succeed in changing the basic EU objectives.

Hi KOR101,

Obviously having fibre is better than having a radio, but the EU objective speed is 100Mb for most, 50Mb for the rest and 30Mb for the hardest to hit - by 2020
The UK has signed off radio as part of their version of NBP. So excluding radio here will have to be justified or the government will end up in the courts and there will be no NBP for anyone

Johnboy1951

fibrefreak wrote: »

Hi KOR101,

Obviously having fibre is better than having a radio, but the EU objective speed is 100Mb for most, 50Mb for the rest and 30Mb for the hardest to hit - by 2020
The UK has signed off radio as part of their version of NBP. So excluding radio here will have to be justified or the government will end up in the courts and there will be no NBP for anyone

So those are the minimum EU requirements.

Is there something stopping the Irish Gov from improving or extending those targets?
For instance specifying that by 2025 the approved system/s must be capable of 100/100 and by 2030 1,000/1,000 ..... or something to that effect?

It would be difficult to show how WISPS could come near that.

I fully expect there to be some small element of wireless in the approved plan ...... for buildings that are extremely remote.

Most 'ribbon' development will, I expect, get FTTH.

MajesticDonkey

fibrefreak wrote: »

Hi KOR101,

Obviously having fibre is better than having a radio, but the EU objective speed is 100Mb for most, 50Mb for the rest and 30Mb for the hardest to hit - by 2020

Yes, and having a plan to improve upon speeds and technology in the near future is also a requirement for the NBP. Show me how WISPs can do this, please, I'd love to see it.

Johnboy1951

I have been having a look at the NBP areas on the
http://www.broadband.gov.ie/
map and as well as quite a bit of real ribbon development, there are also quite a number of 'clusters' of houses, akin to tiny villages.

It would seem to me that the majority of the rural population is in areas such as this.

Made me wonder if the NBP is to subsidise getting fibre to these areas, and then leave the actual connections to individual houses up to the commercial operators?

Just trying to figure out how the scheme might work in practice.

KOR101

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I fully expect there to be some small element of wireless in the approved plan ...... for buildings that are extremely remote.

No, which technical solution is used for those houses should not be specified. It is sufficient to state the objectives which should be met, including future proofing. Then, it is up to bidders to make a convincing case that they can can actually do it. The WISPs will want to dilute the objectives, and probably try to break the plan into lots of smaller plans.

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote:

I fully expect there to be some small element of wireless in the approved plan ...... for buildings that are extremely remote.

KOR101 wrote: »

No, which technical solution is used for those houses should not be specified. It is sufficient to state the objectives which should be met, including future proofing. Then, it is up to bidders to make a convincing case that they can can actually do it. The WISPs will want to dilute the objectives, and probably try to break the plan into lots of smaller plans.

Yes ........ what I posted is what I expect to be the result.

I never said anything about specifying specific solutions

lucernarian

fibrefreak wrote: »

Hi rob808

The money is not coming from the EU - its coming from the Irish taxpayer - please look at the NBP and EU SAG documentation. But the EU do have a say on how you can spend money on major infrastructure rollouts. It is because of this that the end result will be a fibre/radio blend and which one you get will depend on where you live. The EU will not sign off on a plan that is not shown to be economically viable and their guidelines clearly state that you cannot favour one technology over another.

Eircom are quoting 400million for 300,000 homes.
As the industry goes, this is an incredibly low figure. Ask Gigaclear in the UK how much it costs to deliver fibre to your front gate (self install from there) when you are Ofcom approved (no planning permission required) and you cherrypick your areas. They cant do it for that money so I have to question how eircom will do it.

In any case, eircom may never deliver this.
By saying that they plan to install 300,000 homes, they have just removed them from the NBP.
In other words, they are destroying the Siro business case (and making it more likely that the remaining properties will be fed over wireless)

its not like eircom are considered world class in fast broadband rollout timetables.

I don't see why eircom would lie about the cost. However they could well be lying or misrepresenting A) the amount of premises eircom's latest plan will actually benefit and whether they will follow through with the rollout. Some people are falling over themselves to praise eircom's rollout but there was a list of exchanges published only a few years ago which would get DSL and this list is still unfinished. Indeed, some places promised DSL are on eircom's new list too.

dbit

Lists are comparible to flags . :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

zt-OctaviaN

Hey folks,

Like you all, I have been following broadband rollouts for the last damn decade!

Just curious if any of you folks with knowledge in rollout exchange procedures know if a cabinet thats planned for VDSL upgrade can supply houses with FTTH when the exchange is Fibre enabled.

As i understand it the exchange i am connected to (Ballyvarry, co. mayo) is in completion work, judging by the timings this may have been due to the direct to exchange upgrades / change to technicals as a result of vectoring etc, so if it goes in as a 70-100Meg exchange can the VDSL cabinet near Turlough which I believe I go through supply FTTH to homes or is it exchange dependant.

Thanks!

bk

zt-OctaviaN wrote: »

Just curious if any of you folks with knowledge in rollout exchange procedures know if a cabinet thats planned for VDSL upgrade can supply houses with FTTH when the exchange is Fibre enabled.

As Eircom install FTTC cabinets, they have been future proofing them for FTTH, by placing 20 extra fiber pairs from the exchange to each cabinet for the future use during the FTTH rollout.

However this doesn't mean you can just order FTTH once a FTTC cab goes live.

First of all Eircom haven't even officially launched their FTTH product yet, beyond some trial areas. It is expected to launch officially in September.

Even then, your area needs to be FTTH enabled, which is a step beyond the FTTC cabinet rollout. FTTH enabled means Eircom first prepare the surrounding area by running the 20 fiber pairs from the FTTC cabinet to each road and estate around the cabinet, once that is done people who are in these streets and estates can then order FTTH.

This is an additional stage to their project that they are only now starting to do and for which the vast majority of FTTC cabs haven't been enabled for yet in this way. This step will be labour intensive work and will likely take many years to complete.

dbit

bk wrote: »

As Eircom install FTTC cabinets, they have been future proofing them for FTTH, by placing 20 extra fiber pairs from the exchange to each cabinet for the future use during the FTTH rollout.

However this doesn't mean you can just order FTTH once a FTTC cab goes live.

First of all Eircom haven't even officially launched their FTTH product yet, beyond some trial areas. It is expected to launch officially in September.

Even then, your area needs to be FTTH enabled, which is a step beyond the FTTC cabinet rollout. FTTH enabled means Eircom first prepare the surrounding area by running the 20 fiber pairs from the FTTC cabinet to each road and estate around the cabinet, once that is done people who are in these streets and estates can then order FTTH.

This is an additional stage to their project that they are only now starting to do and for which the vast majority of FTTC cabs haven't been enabled for yet in this way. This step will be labour intensive work and will likely take many years to complete.

This is of course very good news , its the length og time that gets me . The question i am asking is that for DF , would it not be more viable to hit these setups first for FTTH as there are no cabinets to worry about although the fiber runs will be longer Seems more straight forward and given the raw deal DF customers now face ?

guil

I would imagine DF will probably some of the last customers to get FTTH availability, surely there's a lot more work to bring fibre to us than from a cab?

ED E

guil wrote: »

I would imagine DF will probably some of the last customers to get FTTH availability, surely there's a lot more work to bring fibre to us than from a cab?

Not really. You can still be fed by a local cab if applicable and exchange to you would be fine for df and in the middle of town.

red_bairn

ED E wrote: »

Not really. You can still be fed by a local cab if applicable and exchange to you would be fine for df and in the middle of town.

The auld man isn't happy about the situation. My family home is 2.2-2.3km away from the Exchange so my dad is quite unlucky. I now live in Dublin with UPC 120 and Eircom have recently sent us a letter about FTTC (100). I really hope they get upgraded later this summer.

tsue921i8wljb3

Good to see a WISP that has the foresight to see that their current business model is unsustainable. This was posted on the Net1 Facebook page in response to a customer complaint:



Also are they not massively jumping the gun by saying FTTH will be available "soon" in such places as: Readypenny, Lough Egish, Lobinstown, Blacklion and Swanlinbar?

They are all listed on the Net1 Packages page with provisional pricing.

ItHurtsWhenIP

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Good to see a WISP that has the foresight to see that their current business model is unsustainable. This was posted on the Net1 Facebook page in response to a customer complaint:



Also are they not massively jumping the gun by saying FTTH will be available "soon" in such places as: Readypenny, Lough Egish, Lobinstown, Blacklion and Swanlinbar?

They are all listed on the Net1 Packages page with provisional pricing.

I've looked those places up on the map and my only conclusion/questions are:

• Readypenny - OK this is in Dundalk, so Eircom/Siro possible
• Blacklion - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Swanlinbar - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Lough Egish - Middle of nowhere, so how???
• Lobinstown - Middle of nowhere, so how???

rob808

MMFITWGDV wrote: »

I've looked those places up on the map and my only conclusion/questions are:

• Readypenny - OK this is in Dundalk, so Eircom/Siro possible
• Blacklion - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Swanlinbar - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Lough Egish - Middle of nowhere, so how???
• Lobinstown - Middle of nowhere, so how???

This good for Eircom and siro it show why FTTH the best option for NBP.I think fixed wireless with fibre is the only why wisp will get a part of NBP.

tsue921i8wljb3

MMFITWGDV wrote: »

I've looked those places up on the map and my only conclusion/questions are:

• Readypenny - OK this is in Dundalk, so Eircom/Siro possible
• Blacklion - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Swanlinbar - This is on the border, so is there a BT roll-out in NI?
• Lough Egish - Middle of nowhere, so how???
• Lobinstown - Middle of nowhere, so how???

They are all areas (bar Lough Egish) listed in Eircom's announcement of 300000 extra mainly rural homes that it would include in it's FTTH rollout.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/over-300000-rural-homes-to-benefit-from-fibre-broadband-31277270.html

I think Net1 are being slightly optimistic saying they will be live soon though, unless they know something we don't.

ItHurtsWhenIP

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

They are all areas (bar Lough Egish) listed in Eircom's announcement of 300000 extra mainly rural homes that it would include in it's FTTH rollout.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/over-300000-rural-homes-to-benefit-from-fibre-broadband-31277270.html

I think Net1 are being slightly optimistic saying they will be live soon though, unless they know something we don't.

Thanks - that one had slipped my mind - I shoulda checked it.

rustalan

Anyone any idea what this is about?

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621235368248102912

"We'll be publishing Ireland's Broadband Intervention Strategy at Croke Park this morning. Follow us using #connectingcommunities"

MajesticDonkey

rustalan wrote: »

Anyone any idea what this is about?

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621235368248102912

"We'll be publishing Ireland's Broadband Intervention Strategy at Croke Park this morning. Follow us using #connectingcommunities"

See here: http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/B92EB6C6-D66A-4FC5-B55A-CFD852C24595/0/NBPJulyreport.pdf

rob808

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

See here: http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/B92EB6C6-D66A-4FC5-B55A-CFD852C24595/0/NBPJulyreport.pdf

let hope fibre the main technology

MajesticDonkey

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621263776113934336

Looks like we won't know the type of technology until September.

rob808

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621263776113934336

Looks like we won't know the type of technology until September.

Dam well that sucks

MajesticDonkey

rob808 wrote: »

Dam well that sucks

On the upside, it looks like the plan is to have it rolled out by 2020.

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621262557354041344

rob808

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

On the upside, it looks like the plan is to have it rolled out by 2020.

https://twitter.com/DCENR/status/621262557354041344

let hope it not all LTE
A.

KOR101

Alex White (1 hour ago on twitter) "The intervention area, as it stands, comprises over 750,000 addresses and 1.8 million of our citizens"

It still isn't clear what the position is regarding the 300,000 homes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the government has accepted in any of their statements that Eircom WILL provide those homes outside the plan. Someone at Eircom told me that he believed those homes would end up in the plan despite the earlier announcement. I never posted it because it was a comment made in passing, and I never got a chance to query exactly why he thought that.

If those homes are not in the plan, there is no 'guarantee' that they will get it.

KOR101

https://twitter.com/SIROIreland/status/621280025082523648

KOR101

https://twitter.com/SIROIreland/status/621283513191505924

KOR101

KOR101 wrote: »

Alex White (1 hour ago on twitter) "The intervention area, as it stands, comprises over 750,000 addresses and 1.8 million of our citizens"

It still isn't clear what the position is regarding the 300,000 homes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the government has accepted in any of their statements that Eircom WILL provide those homes outside the plan. Someone at Eircom told me that he believed those homes would end up in the plan despite the earlier announcement. I never posted it because it was a comment made in passing, and I never got a chance to query exactly why he thought that.

If those homes are not in the plan, there is no 'guarantee' that they will get it.

From the Intervention Strategy today.......

"The map is being kept under review to ensure that relevant commercial plans are accurately reflected. There have been some significant proposals from industry in recent months. The Department is reviewing these proposals, assessing their technical and financial aspects and the robustness of their deployment plans."

KOR101

Good news that the Government doesn't seem to favour a single winner by offering 2, 3 or more lots. Not sure who can do it beyond, Eircom and SIRO.

xxyyzz

KOR101 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SIROIreland/status/621283513191505924

Are they targets or minimum accepted targets?

PeadarB

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/AF3F0DB9-5D50-480A-BE2F-0EB18D4699E7/0/ProposedInterventionStrategy.pdf

Technical Report - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/5626AFA7-4524-48AA-B88D-09A0AD95CA1D/0/TechnicalReport.pdf

Looks to be 30Mb D/L minimum and 6Mb U/L minimum.

" The Department is proposing to set the following technical standards to be met by the winning bidder(s) in the procurement process:
• A minimum of 30Mbps download
• A minimum of 6Mbps upload
• Latency – no more than 25 milliseconds
• Jitter – no more than 25 milliseconds
• Packet loss – not more than 0.1%
• Service availability – at least 99.95% of the time".

ED E

Roll on fibre so. LTE and FWA will never meet that unless they have a very high mast to user ratio.

chris_ie

PeadarB wrote: »

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/AF3F0DB9-5D50-480A-BE2F-0EB18D4699E7/0/ProposedInterventionStrategy.pdf

Technical Report - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/5626AFA7-4524-48AA-B88D-09A0AD95CA1D/0/TechnicalReport.pdf

Looks to be 30Mb D/L minimum and 6Mb U/L minimum.

" The Department is proposing to set the following technical standards to be met by the winning bidder(s) in the procurement process:
• A minimum of 30Mbps download
• A minimum of 6Mbps upload
• Latency – no more than 25 milliseconds
• Jitter – no more than 25 milliseconds
• Packet loss – not more than 0.1%
• Service availability – at least 99.95% of the time".

Considering I get an average of around 3-5% loss (sometimes worse) at peak times on my WISP (to their own internal server) I dont think they'd be in with a shout at present!

ACLFC7

"I expect to be in a position to sign a contract or contracts with a winning bidder or bidders by mid-2016"
I know this stuff takes time but if a contract won't be signed for another 12 months then work probably won't start until 2017. How do they expect to have 85% coverage in 2018.

dbit

chris_ie wrote: »

Considering I get an average of around 3-5% loss (sometimes worse) at peak times on my WISP (to their own internal server) I dont think they'd be in with a shout at present!

Wait wait wait hang on and where si the capacity allowance in this ? OR will the regional resellers be allowed put ridiculous caps on everything ? I smell extortionate over charges ?

KOR101

ACLFC7 wrote: »

"I expect to be in a position to sign a contract or contracts with a winning bidder or bidders by mid-2016"
I know this stuff takes time but if a contract won't be signed for another 12 months then work probably won't start until 2017. How do they expect to have 85% coverage in 2018.

This was the one big disappointment. That is presumably after the election. :eek: And, also this is the first time I've heard MID 2016.

PeadarB

dbit wrote: »

Wait wait wait hang on and where si the capacity allowance in this ? OR will the regional resellers be allowed put ridiculous caps on everything ? I smell extortionate over charges ?

"The NBP objective is that the services to be delivered must be of similar speed and quality to those available in urban areas and towns, and prices must be aligned with national prices for such services."
- from Section 7.8 Retail and wholesale services must be affordable.

fergus1001

MajesticDonkey wrote:

On the upside, it looks like the plan is to have it rolled out by 2020.

How can he say that when they don't know what technology they are using

Smells like election promises to me !