NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

user1842

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The vast amount of capital investment is required for the passing of premises as groundwork needs to be done to renew access chambers and ducting and poles are replaced.

A thought did strike me that eir may let this work take place, poles and ducting renewed at NBIs (taxpayers) expense then eir rush in to deploy their own cable and distribution points. It could be a race to see who is quickest at splicing!

Why should we pay to repair EIR's network, this would be absolutely scandalous. That is EIR's job.

Better to use ESB poles then.

It really is a total nightmare at this point. I really want the NBP but not at this cost.

Rerun the tender, allow Open Eir to run the intervention area and be done with it. If this takes an extra six months, then so be it, we will save a couple of billion, everyone will get fibre and we will not be in a worse position.

Leo is talking nonsense that the three bidders had similar bids. Basic logic would dictate that Open Eir do not need to rent the poles to themselves, already have a significant infrastructure is place and therefore they would be a lot cheaper.

It is almost a guarantee that if the NBP is given to Granahan Mccourt, Eir will immediately announce that they could have done it for well under a billion and that the Department of Communications forced them to exit using the unfair demand that they setup a new wholesale entity. I can just picture the press release now.

The Cush

user1842 wrote: »

Leo is talking nonsense that the three bidders had similar bids. Basic logic would dictate that Open Eir do not need to rent the poles to themselves, already have a significant infrastructure is place and therefore they would be a lot cheaper.

Under the NBP eir would have to create a separate wholesale entity with account separation and would have to pay the same regulated access fees to open-eir. This why the bids could be similar. Of course we know it's moving money between sister companies. This is how RTÉ and the transmission arm, 2rn, works.

user1842 wrote: »

It is almost a guarantee that if the NBP is given to Granahan Mccourt, Eir will immediately announce that they could have done it for well under a billion and that the Department of Communications forced them to exit using the unfair demand that they setup a new wholesale entity. I can just picture the press release now.

Don't see that happening, they have chosen not to be part of the NBP but will still benefit with access fees to their infrastructure while continuing to upgrade their own network.

user1842

The Cush wrote: »

Under the NBP eir would have to create a separate wholesale entity with account separation and would have to pay the same regulated access fees to open-eir. This why the bids could be similar. Of course we know it's moving money between sister companies. This is how RTÉ and the transmission arm, 2rn, works.

This was a demand from the department, not a condition of the tender. Open-eir already operate like this. This stipulation should have been dropped, the second EIR looked like they would leave. The department made a total and absolute mess of this.

clohamon

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

They are likely going to have to pass the majority of premises anyway. Just as open eir have done in their 300000 project. You can't really cherry pick premises unless they are extremely remote and they'll likely get wireless. The vast amount of capital investment is required for the passing of premises as groundwork needs to be done to renew access chambers and ducting and poles are replaced.

A thought did strike me that eir may let this work take place, poles and ducting renewed at NBIs (taxpayers) expense then eir rush in to deploy their own cable and distribution points. It could be a race to see who is quickest at splicing!

I wonder if they'd bother. Department are saying wholesale fibre line rental from NBI will be €30/mnth.

And if eir put additional cable of their own on the poles then the income from NBI (for pole access) gets diluted.

medoc

Deleted User wrote: »

Now the word is that Eir are only installing the easiest of this rural 300K and can not be compelled to complete the others. They blew the NBP out of the water, managed to prevent a major competitor, and took the rural commercially viable properties in one fell swoop. They ran rings around government.

Are you saying that certain houses in the 300k rollout won’t be passed as promised? Has there been any mention of this anywhere? It would be terrible if it happened. And if it does the government need to force Eir to complete their agreed contract or penalise them heavily.

Ten Pin

Taoiseach: … In terms of the ownership model which the Deputy asked about, under the proposed contract terms, the contract is to build the network, to operate the network, to maintain the network and to manage the network for 25 years, at which point ownership stays with the consortium. However, at that point, Government has the option to buy. As this is not a commercial piece of infrastructure, one would expect that to be a relatively inexpensive proposition. At any point, if the contractor fails to deliver, the Government can step in and take over. Those have been the terms of the proposition since very early on

How true is that? Surely at that stage FTTH will be at such a take up rate that it'll be worth a lot.

And if it's "not commercial" then why can't the govt just tender for it and own it outright from day one in the same way as a new hospital is built. Or are hospitals and utility networks treated differently?

Department are saying wholesale fibre line rental from NBI will be €30/mnth.

How much do eir and siro charge?
Edit: Seems eir charges...
150Mbps 23.50
300Mbps 28.50
1Gps 38.50

Do Siro charge less?

ussjtrunks

If I don’t currently have an active phone line but broadband with nova will we even be looked at for the nbp, I fact everyone on my road is on nova / imagine

purpleisafruit

ussjtrunks wrote: »

If I don’t currently have an active phone line but broadband with nova will we even be looked at for the nbp, I fact everyone on my road is on nova / imagine

The NBP includes all of those areas covered by Imagine/Nova etc

Johnboy1951

Micheál Martin: … there is an onus and an obligation on the Taoiseach to give the full cost. What is the overall cost of the project estimated to be? The subvention from the State will be €3 billion. Are there any additional costs, over and above that, to the bidder?

The Taoiseach: Not to my knowledge, but the decision has yet to be made by Cabinet. The decision that will be made by Cabinet in the next couple of weeks is whether to accept the bid and to designate this bidder as the preferred bidder, at which point contracts will have to be drawn up and signed, and that will take a few more months after that.

I am very puzzled by the answer to this.
It would be reasonable to read that as the total cost of the roll out of the NBP is €3 bn and the Gov is paying all of it.

The successful bidder gets to operate the network for 25 years, presumably pocketing any profit during that time. After that the operator owns the infrastructure outright.

The Taoiseach: … In terms of the ownership model which the Deputy asked about, under the proposed contract terms, the contract is to build the network, to operate the network, to maintain the network and to manage the network for 25 years, at which point ownership stays with the consortium. However, at that point, Government has the option to buy. As this is not a commercial piece of infrastructure, one would expect that to be a relatively inexpensive proposition. At any point, if the contractor fails to deliver, the Government can step in and take over. Those have been the terms of the proposition since very early on.

The Gov then has the option to buy the infrastructure (which they have already paid for) from the operator. But this is not an exclusive right to purchase or at a fixed price or even maximum price apparently.
Now lets assume that the NBP in 25 years time is profitable and desirable commercially. (It very well could be depending on what happens socially over the next 25 years). The operator decides to sell ..... then the gov would have to compete with commercial entities to buy it.

I hope I am completely misreading how this is going down, because as I read it presently it is absolutely ludicrous.

The tax payer would have to buy the NBP twice ..... once at near cost, and the second time, 25 years later, at the commercial price at that time. In the meantime the operator gets the profit generated.


If the above summary is correct or near correct, then the whole plan should be dropped immediately, IMO.

ED E

Its like the 1984 Telco act in the US. Give the ISPs free money.

clohamon

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am very puzzled by the answer to this.
It would be reasonable to read that as the total cost of the roll out of the NBP is €3 bn and the Gov is paying all of it.

The successful bidder gets to operate the network for 25 years, presumably pocketing any profit during that time. After that the operator owns the infrastructure outright.



The Gov then has the option to buy the infrastructure (which they have already paid for) from the operator. But this is not an exclusive right to purchase or at a fixed price or even maximum price apparently.
Now lets assume that the NBP in 25 years time is profitable and desirable commercially. (It very well could be depending on what happens socially over the next 25 years). The operator decides to sell ..... then the gov would have to compete with commercial entities to buy it.

I hope I am completely misreading how this is going down, because as I read it presently it is absolutely ludicrous.

The tax payer would have to buy the NBP twice ..... once at near cost, and the second time, 25 years later, at the commercial price at that time. In the meantime the operator gets the profit generated.


If the above summary is correct or near correct, then the whole plan should be dropped immediately, IMO.

It's not known if the NBP will be profitable at an operating level. (542K premises spread over c. 70,000 kM²)
If not, it isn't worth anything unless another operator (incumbent) can operate it at lower cost.
If it is, then it's not known what the claw-back arrangement will have returned to the State over the twenty five years.
The State isn't obliged to buy it if there are willing purchasers in the market.
Hopefully by then we'll have a regulator worth the name.

user1842

clohamon wrote: »

It's not known if the NBP will be profitable at an operating level. (542K premises spread over c. 70,000 kM²)

I think they said the same thing about the M50 toll bridge.

rob808

user1842 wrote: »

I think they said the same thing about the M50 toll bridge.

which they sold and buy back at a higher price they will never learn from there mistakes.

medoc

medoc wrote: »

Are you saying that certain houses in the 300k rollout won’t be passed as promised? Has there been any mention of this anywhere? It would be terrible if it happened. And if it does the government need to force Eir to complete their agreed contract or penalise them heavily.

Yes, there was a news report about it a few weeks back. Piqued my interest as I'm currently fighting with Eir, as one such user. They've done every property to my left and right and stopped right in the middle (my house)
I'm one of the properties identified

The Cush

Adrian Weckler: 'Why 5G isn't broadband answer'

But while 5G should move communications forward, it currently looks like a very doubtful answer to base national infrastructure on.

For starters, we would need to built thousands and thousands of new masts and base stations in every corner of the country.

Be honest, now: what are the chances that rural communities will accept that? If you think 'maybe', you may want to look at the level of local resistance faced by operators trying to erect single masts, even in areas that have dire reception. (I have, on multiple occasions, debated with TDs who are protesting about a new mast while simultaneously giving out about poor mobile phone signals in their area.)

And that's not to talk about the cost. Over a 20-year period, a subsidised mobile broadband network that guarantees the kind of future-proof speeds and service required to give consistency and reliability would likely cost as much as a fibre network. Ask any of the mobile operators how much it costs to maintain a high level national network. It's not cheap. Almost every industry executive I have spoken to says maintenance costs on thousands and thousands of masts would be more expensive than fibre.

Indeed, the operators that stand to gain most from 4G and 5G rollouts agree with this. Vodafone Ireland's chief executive has said that mobile broadband should only be considered a "complementary" service to a long-term fibre rollout.

Much of this has been teased out at length by Department of Communication officials in a series of appearances, both with press, opposition politicians, analysts and Oireachtas committees.

For anyone paying attention, it's fairly clear that a fixed fibre broadband network is (at present) the only kind of broadband platform that would do what the Government says it wants for some 500,000 rural premises.

Whether Irish politicians are willing to proceed with this is a different question entirely.

nagel

The election spin has begun ,
according to the indo the local election manifesto is going to tell us that they are going to enable the use of the lamp posts for mobile base stations, and they tell us that 75% of the population has high speed broadband, so its going to cost €3 bn to provide broadbanfd for the 25%
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fg-promises-highspeed-broadband-by-street-light-38035416.html

clohamon

As suspected, the NBP announcement was delayed to enhance FG local election campaign.

A draft copy of the election manifesto, which has been obtained by the Sunday Independent, says Fine Gael will roll out broadband for every home, business or school, "regardless of how remote or rural" their location is.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fg-promises-highspeed-broadband-by-street-light-38035416.html


(post crossed with nagel above)

Of course the stupid bloody part if all this is that I would have paid to do the works myself to connect to the fibre line nearby but no option to do that

wexfordman2

nagel wrote: »

The election spin has begun ,
according to the indo the local election manifesto is going to tell us that they are going to enable the use of the lamp posts for mobile base stations, and they tell us that 75% of the population has high speed broadband, so its going to cost €3 bn to provide broadbanfd for the 25%
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fg-promises-highspeed-broadband-by-street-light-38035416.html

Oh cool, so finally a plan for rural broadband takes hold.

Now, when is the national rural streetlights rollout plan commencing, so we can put the nbp on the back of it ?

Ultimanemo

clohamon wrote: »

As suspected, the NBP announcement was delayed to enhance FG local election campaign.



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fg-promises-highspeed-broadband-by-street-light-38035416.html


(post crossed with nagel above)

My family and myself we will not vote for them unless our house is connected, If they promise they will connect us if they get elected we will promise we will vote for them if we get connected, a promise for a promise.

Ultimanemo

Ultimanemo wrote: »

My family and myself we will not vote for them unless our house is connected, If they promise they will connect us if they get elected we will promise we will vote for them if we get connected, a promise for a promise.

Election promises aren't worth the paper/air/bandwidth they consume. To paraphrase the minister who was in charge on starting the NBP which was supposed to have been 99% completed last year, election promises are just something you say to get elected.

Personally I will be voting independent if I can find one locally who is actually worth voting for.

rodge123

DubInMeath wrote: »

Election promises aren't worth the paper/air/bandwidth they consume. To paraphrase the minister who was in charge on starting the NBP which was supposed to have been 99% completed last year, election promises are just something you say to get elected.

Personally I will be voting independent if I can find one locally who is actually worth voting for.

I think what he was saying is that they can promise whatever they like, he will will only vote for them when his house is connected.

I’ll be the same, no more FG votes in my house until contract signed and sealed and they start the ftth only rollout. Have had enough of their false promises the last 2 elections.

garroff

rodge123 wrote: »

I think what he was saying is that they can promise whatever they like, he will will only vote for them when his house is connected.

I’ll be the same, no more FG votes in my house until contract signed and sealed and they start the ftth only rollout. Have had enough of their false promises the last 2 elections.

All election promises are null and void after the election. Thems the rules

rodge123

garroff wrote: »

All election promises are null and void after the election. Thems the rules

Like I said, no more votes going forward based on any promises before election. Only concrete actions on the nbp before election will get FG a vote from my household.
Thems my rules!

Pique

Jesus wept.

Limiting fibre connections to towns and villages would strengthen communities. If only rural TDs would realise this

Eoin O'Malley speaketh

celtic_oz

Fine Gael promise to me in Feb 2016 (~3 years ago) just before elections :

Thank you for your recent email which Ciara brought to my attention.

Within the next Dáil term, Fine Gael guarantees the delivery of next-generation broadband to every household and business in the country. No town, village or parish, will be left behind under the National Broadband Plan, which will ensure that 85% of premises in Ireland will have access to high speed broadband by 2018, with 100% access by 2020.

Kind regards

Heather Humphreys

Grab All Association

FG canvassers came around here Thursday and the first thing out of their mouth was the NBP will be signed in the autumn. I told them that I/we’ve already got 1GB fibre here and pointed up to the DP on the pole at my fence serving 4 houses. They got back in their car and left the estate. Looks like that’s all they have to offer here in Thurles. IDA left in 1989, hospitals shut down and the much needed bypass omitted from 2040 plan.

Orebro

Told some campaigners today that either the NBP gets signed before polling day or my & family votes are going elsewhere. Enough election promises - I encourage everyone here to do the same.

daraghwal

Running out of people to vote for...

rob808

Hopefully nobody listen to his plan it sounds like NBS plan that work out great didnt it .

jobbridge4life

Orebro wrote: »

Told some campaigners today that either the NBP gets signed before polling day or my & family votes are going elsewhere. Enough election promises - I encourage everyone here to do the same.

What a depressing comment, and that it should be thanked by so many is even more frustrating.

So much wrong with this country, including the decades of planning failures that have lead to the need for the NBP and the undeliverable promises involved in same, can be traced back to politicians preferring their own position in local government to making the correct decision for the country.

The contract might be bad for us, but i'll lose my junkets if I don't sign the country up to it anyway.

Orebro

jobbridge4life wrote: »

What a depressing comment, and that it should be thanked by so many is even more frustrating.

So much wrong with this country, including the decades of planning failures that have lead to the need for the NBP and the undeliverable promises involved in same, can be traced back to politicians preferring their own position in local government to making the correct decision for the country.

The contract might be bad for us, but i'll lose my junkets if I don't sign the country up to it anyway.

What speed broadband do you have?

Pique

I'll say it again. 3bn for 550k houses over 25 years is 218 per house per year.

Marlow

Haha ....

Politicians only cop on to it now: https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/councillors-critical-of-eir-broadband-rollout-in-connemara/

I also posted this in the Eir FTTH thread, as it applies to both.

/M

Grab All Association

Noticing quite a lot of posts on social media from people claiming to have had FTTH and switched to imagine for faster broadband. Either these people are on FTTC/ADSL and believe they are on FTTH or paid shills to sabotage the NBP. Most likely the latter.

Gonzo

Grab All Association wrote: »

Noticing quite a lot of posts on social media from people claiming to have had FTTH and switched to imagine for faster broadband. Either these people are on FTTC/ADSL and believe they are on FTTH or paid shills to sabotage the NBP. Most likely the latter.

I don't believe for a second anyone would ditch their FTTH connection and pay 5 euros extra per month to switch to Imagine, something very dodgy there.

Orebro

What exactly do "Broadband Officers" do in the county councils?

fritzelly

Orebro wrote: »

What exactly do "Broadband Officers" do in the county councils?

Pretend they know what they are talking about, promise you they will sort it out, and do nothing. They cannot do anything to influence a private business period
They are not paid anything - basically a schmuck to take the heat off other people

rodge123

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/national-broadband-plan-set-for-approval-at-cost-of-3bn-1.3871777?mode=amp

Johnboy1951

rodge123 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/national-broadband-plan-set-for-approval-at-cost-of-3bn-1.3871777?mode=amp

So in two weeks time the gov will make a rural 'election promise'.

I venture to suggest that no legally binding commitment will be made prior to the election.

There must always be a 'way out' of such 'promises'!

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So in two weeks time the gov will make a rural 'election promise'.(

This will be cabinet decision on a major tender, they will either say yay or nay. If they decide to go with NBI I can't see them recinding the decision later.

rodge123

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So in two weeks time the gov will make a rural 'election promise'.

I venture to suggest that no legally binding commitment will be made prior to the election.

There must always be a 'way out' of such 'promises'!

Yep which is why all of us that want to see the nbp implemented should refrain from giving FG any votes in local or national elections until the contract is signed and sealed and shovels are in the ground as they like to say!
Take the view that actions speak louder than words with your politicians from now on.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

This will be cabinet decision on a major tender, they will either say yay or nay. If they decide to go with NBI I can't see them recinding the decision later.

It will not be the same cabinet after the election, and possibly a completely new government 'balance' if not a single party government.
They will not be bound by any decision of a previous government and will make their own decision ..... throwing the NBP up in the air again until that decision is made.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It will not be the same cabinet after the election, and possibly a completely new government 'balance' if not a single party government.
They will not be bound by any decision of a previous government and will make their own decision ..... throwing the NBP up in the air again until that decision is made.

We're not having a general election, just council and European elections, the same cabinet will be there for the next 12 months at least, at which point a contract may already be signed.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

We're not having a general election, just council and European elections, the same cabinet will be there for the next 12 months at least, at which point a contract may already be signed.

I hope you optimism pans out.
I am concerned there will be no contract committed to before the general election .... which could be much sooner than you estimate.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I hope you optimism pans out.
I am concerned there will be no contract committed to before the general election .... which could be much sooner than you estimate.

My optimism knows no bounds, except for my up to 3 Mbps WISP connection.

KOR101

Broadband tender process has ‘absolutely failed’ – Fianna Fáil

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/broadband-tender-process-has-absolutely-failed-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.3872513

medoc

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/378290/offaly-td-cautiously-welcomes-national-broadband-plan-progress.html

I won’t believe it till I see vans up and down the roads. How much will it fully cost? If the state is paying €3 billion how much % of the total cost is it?

listermint

I want Fibre Broadband as much as the next person.

But i cannot stand over the network being paid for out of my tax and then handed off lock stock to private enterprise. If that part is accurate then id rather not proceed with the current plan.

Its not good enough.

turbbo

It's better spent on this than bailing out banks and city centre childrens hosp. IMHO