NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Ultimanemo

listermint wrote: »

The same people cheering this on at all costs right now in this thread.

Will be the very same individuals in after hours in ten years bitching about fine Gael giving away free infrastructure. When we are paying through the nose to a monopolised network with a single provider running it.

I am already paying €90 a month plus a thousand I paid in equipment for wireless broadband.

gnf_ireland

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I am already paying €90 a month plus a thousand I paid in equipment for wireless broadband.

This is why rural Ireland needs an open access network that makes service available to all operators. Without it, price gouging is guaranteed to happen over time.

No different really to those who are covered with fibre by Virgin Media (like myself). We are stuck with them if we want decent broadband no matter the price. I look forward to when eir do their urban FTTP rollout, and I have the option of switching operators at will when they increase prices ... But at least I have decent coverage, which is an obvious plus !

others like my parents whose only options are QSAT or those caught with wireless operators wont know themselves if this happens... choice, the cornerstone of capitalism !

Ultimanemo

gnf_ireland wrote: »

This is why rural Ireland needs an open access network that makes service available to all operators. Without it, price gouging is guaranteed to happen over time.

No different really to those who are covered with fibre by Virgin Media (like myself). We are stuck with them if we want decent broadband no matter the price. I look forward to when eir do their urban FTTP rollout, and I have the option of switching operators at will when they increase prices ... But at least I have decent coverage, which is an obvious plus !

others like my parents whose only options are QSAT or those caught with wireless operators wont know themselves if this happens... choice, the cornerstone of capitalism !

Without NBP, I am paying high price for mediocre service, I don't understand if NBP will be available to all operators, but I don't think it will get any worse.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

the cabinet will make a decision on it in early May, likely at a special cabinet meeting in Cork.

The above was speculated in a newspaper article before Easter, that cabinet meeting in Cork takes place this Wednesday but no decision will be made on the NBP

Mr Varadkar had said that a decision on the plan, which was first published in 2012, would be made before Easter. However, this deadline was missed and the NBP will not be discussed when the Cabinet holds its weekly meeting in Cork on Wednesday.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/fianna-fail-seek-meeting-with-govt-over-rising-cost-of-broadband-plan-920816.html

Orebro

Thats the point isn't it - so many of us paying through the nose in rural Ireland for appalling services. Sean Bolger and his band of thieves laughing all the way to the bank. We've waited long enough. Sorry, but scrapping it or going back to the drawing board just isn't an option this time - we need the NBP to start and we need it NOW.

BarryM

The high horse brigade wrote: »

It's not as easy as that. To work anywhere on the ESB network you need to be a fully qualified electrician which is a much higher paid skilled worker than a telecoms engineer

Let's get this right. In almost all cases, ESB staff have gloves that let them work on live installations.

The reason the ESB isn't involvd is a) the only shareholder is the Minister who gets a dividend every year. where does that go? b) a turf war between the depts the ESB don't want any body 'else' using their facilities.

In many other countries the electrical and telephone networks are on the same infrastructure.

Orebro

BarryM wrote: »

Let's get this right. In almost all cases, ESB staff have gloves that let them work on live installations.

The reason the ESB isn't involvd is a) the only shareholder is the Minister who gets a dividend every year. where does that go? b) a turf war between the depts the ESB don't want any body 'else' using their facilities.

In many other countries the electrical and telephone networks are on the same infrastructure.

The ESB did compete in the form of SIRO and they pulled out. People are blue in the face from saying you cannot simply hand the job to the ESB or anyone else for that matter without a competitive tender, it's as simple as that.

We are where we are now, time to get on with it.

user1842

Orebro wrote: »

without a competitive tender

I agree with you, however when all but one party withdraws, the tender is no longer really competitive.

Occasionally, only one bidder will submit a tender despite the Authority having issued the invitation to tender to several shortlisted candidates. Should that happen, in good procurement practice, the question of how to proceed should be considered case by case:

If it appears that bidder interest was low because of deficiencies in the tender documents (including the project specifications or the draft PPP contract) and these can realistically be remedied, then the best solution might be to repeat the tender procedure this time on a better footing.

If it appears that the bid was made in the bidder’s belief that there would be a good level of competition (and this should be supported by the Authority’s advisers carrying out benchmarking of costs and in some cases by insisting on actual market testing of the costs of the major subcontracts), then the best solution might be to continue with the procurement and consider the sole bidder to be the winner, provided that the tender is fully compliant and meets all pass/fail evaluation criteria.

https://www.eib.org/epec/g2g/iii-procurement/31/314/index.htm

Idbatterim

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-mobile-broadband-good-enough-for-rural-germany-why-not-rural-ireland-1.3875352?mode=amp

I read this earlier , seems reasonable to me !

Marlow

user1842 wrote: »

I agree with you, however when all but one party withdraws, the tender is no longer really competitive.

That is why it would have been the correct decision to shred the whole process and revise it, when we were down to 1 bidder.

But assuming that the powers in charge do things correct would mean to expect wonders.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-mobile-broadband-good-enough-for-rural-germany-why-not-rural-ireland-1.3875352?mode=amp

I read this earlier , seems reasonable to me !

The fishmonger is back with his crappy opinions.

Marlow

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-mobile-broadband-good-enough-for-rural-germany-why-not-rural-ireland-1.3875352?mode=amp

I read this earlier , seems reasonable to me !

Germany already required the mobile providers to cover X percent of rural areas first with 4G, before they were allowed to commence their urban rollout.

They have a regulator, that enforces things. Opposed to the irish one, that seems to revolt around sipping tay.

Either way, their approach does not resolve our problem, because the bandwidth is not available at the masts either. Not even for 4G. And hence that option is not viable in Ireland.

/M

gnf_ireland

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Without NBP, I am paying high price for mediocre service, I don't understand if NBP will be available to all operators, but I don't think it will get any worse.

NBP is absolutely open access and will be available to any operator to subscribe to its services. This includes any registered service provider in Ireland, including Virgin Media if they so choose.

I do not believe GMC will ever deal with end customers, and I suspect they will always operate as a wholesale division only - otherwise its likely to get too complicated and end up in an eir situation which is hardly worth the extra hassle and cost.

gnf_ireland

user1842 wrote: »

I agree with you, however when all but one party withdraws, the tender is no longer really competitive.

But the tender process was run and only one company felt it was worth the investment to participate in it to the end. This should give everyone a sense of the complexity and risk associated to the project.

If I go to tender on an extension for my house and I get 3 builders to look at it and only one gives me a quote, what does that tell me? I then have the option of doing the job for that quote or not doing it. Its a straight forward decision. If the numbers don't add up (in terms of monetary and non-monetary factors), then you have to walk away from the project.
It goes not mean I go out again and hand it to some builder who did not give me a quote in the first place, without any concept of cost from them. It may as well be a blank cheque scenario

Yes, I have other options such as going back to the drawings and making changes to them removing some of the complexity with the build and going back via the planning process to get approval etc. But this will cause delays in the project etc.

I firmly believe the ESB is not the answer here. If the whole response is unpalatable, then just kill the project in its current form. Use the money to buy openeir, with a mandate to invest any profits into rolling out rural fibre for the next 10-15+ years to get the job done at some stage.

Orebro

Marlow wrote: »

Germany already required the mobile providers to cover X percent of rural areas first with 4G, before they were allowed to commence their urban rollout.

They have a regulator, that enforces things. Opposed to the irish one, that seems to revolt around sipping tay.

Either way, their approach does not resolve our problem, because the bandwidth is not available at the masts either. Not even for 4G. And hence that option is not viable in Ireland.

/M

Nor do the required number & location of masts even exist, which I believe was estimated recently to cost €1.8Bn and take many years to implement.

This tech "journalism" since the NBP has come about is truly shocking - what a terrible standard we have in the country when they won't even do the most basic of research for an article.

gnf_ireland

Marlow wrote: »

That is why it would have been the correct decision to shred the whole process and revise it, when we were down to 1 bidder.
But assuming that the powers in charge do things correct would mean to expect wonders.
/M

The big question here is more whether there would have been any change in outcome if it was run again?

It still needs to be a competitive process and it would require major investment from any participant to respond to a new tender proposal. Most would consider it to be a waste given the fiasco it has been to date and the diminishing likelihood of an award at the end of it all.

I am sure all parties, including eir & SIRO had invested a considerable amount in the process before they withdrew. Who would be willing to spend that money again at this stage?

gnf_ireland

Orebro wrote: »

Nor do the required number & location of masts even exist, which I believe was estimated recently to cost €1.8Bn and take many years to implement.

This tech "journalism" since the NBP has come about is truly shocking - what a terrible standard we have in the country when they won't even do the most basic of research for an article.

The good news on this is when the mobile operators go to launch their 5G projects here, there are so many experts in it we wont need to use any international consultants at all !

user1842

gnf_ireland wrote: »

The big question here is more whether there would have been any change in outcome if it was run again?

It still needs to be a competitive process and it would require major investment from any participant to respond to a new tender proposal. Most would consider it to be a waste given the fiasco it has been to date and the diminishing likelihood of an award at the end of it all.

I am sure all parties, including eir & SIRO had invested a considerable amount in the process before they withdrew. Who would be willing to spend that money again at this stage?

If Eir were allowed to use Open Eir then they would be interested. Very little extra cost to them as the majority of tender work would have already been done on their side. Just reuse.

Orebro

The minister is holding his ground sensibly.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/government-rules-out-mobile-broadband-as-alternative-to-fibre-for-national-broadband-plan-38064514.html

Ultimanemo

Orebro wrote: »

The minister is holding his ground sensibly.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/government-rules-out-mobile-broadband-as-alternative-to-fibre-for-national-broadband-plan-38064514.html

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

garroff

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

Oh God....not the death rays again..... remember all the people that were killed with MMDS. Will we ever grow up and get sense?.

Ultimanemo

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

Tell her to hand back her masters/phd.

CosmicFool

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

Nobody is going to believe that some lecturer in Technology whatever that is, told you a story that you just made up.

Ultimanemo

CosmicFool wrote: »

Nobody is going to believe that some lecturer in Technology whatever that is, told you a story that you just made up.

No I didn't.

Mortelaro

Ultimanemo wrote: »

No I didn't.

She may aswell ask everyone to turn off wifi on their routers so
Anyone know where the ethernet plug goes on my iPad?

Ultimanemo

Mortelaro wrote: »

She may aswell ask everyone to turn off wifi on their routers so
Anyone know where the ethernet plug goes on my iPad?

I know nothing about technology, I hope she is wrong.

CosmicFool

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I know nothing about technology, I hope she is wrong.

So you know nothing about technology and you met some randomer who told you about how bad 5G is for everyone and she said she was a lecturer in Technology that we have no idea what kind of technology and you believed her and start putting this rubbish up here? Seriously like?

Timberrrrrrrr

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I know nothing about technology, I hope she is wrong.

She is.

ednwireland

I still can't believe that people think re tendering is the answer. it's taken 5 years for this project to get to this point.
if implemented I would expect to see tangible benefits for the workforce in these areas.

theguzman

ednwireland wrote: »

I still can't believe that people think re tendering is the answer. it's taken 5 years for this project to get to this point.
if implemented I would expect to see tangible benefits for the workforce in these areas.

Plough on deliver Fibre to every little back bohereen in Ireland, anything else is a failure, the cost could be €10bn for all I care, look the tens of billions squandered on the HSE and Welfare, proper fibre will give rural Ireland an economic stimulus.

We should-be spending increasing amounts of money on critical infrastructure like this, every county connected to a Motorway, High-Speed Rail and several Metro lines in Dublin, slash and burn the Public Sector, HSE and Welfare budget and build infrastructure to grow the real economy.

Look at China, they consumed more cement in 3 years than the USA did in the entire 20th century combined. Ireland is more concerned with a free house for some freeloader and lifetime jobs for useless public servants than doing anything for the real economy.

wexfordman2

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

5g is a technology, not a definition of what frequency it operates at, you lecturer friend was likely talking through its rear.

That being said,.5g is for another thread, this is the NBP thread which has nothing to.do with 5g, thankfully.

The Cush

garroff wrote: »

Oh God....not the death rays again..... remember all the people that were killed with MMDS. Will we ever grow up and get sense?.

Back in the day it started out as Multipoint Microwave Distribution System (MMDS), but as time went on and microwaves were associated with cooking food the jump was made to slow cooking brains/humans by these transmitters, so they changed the acronym meaning to Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Service or System, dropping the word Microwave. In the end it didn't make any difference and went into a slow decline.

The Cush

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Today I met a lady who is a lecturer in technology and she said 5G is a very real health hazard, She said that is because of high frequency and high energy "or something like that I don't really understand". If that is true then I don't expect many masts will be erected unchallenged.
I was disappointed as I thought 5G would be something I will be looking forward to.

The EU has harmonised 3 pioneer bands for 5g, 700 MHz, 3.6 GHz and the 26 GHz (24.25-27.5 GHz) frequencies. Are they confusing the mmWave 26 GHz band with the sub-6 GHz band and lumping them all together?

Ultimanemo

CosmicFool wrote: »

So you know nothing about technology and you met some randomer who told you about how bad 5G is for everyone and she said she was a lecturer in Technology that we have no idea what kind of technology and you believed her and start putting this rubbish up here? Seriously like?

Sorry I can't argue with you, too low for my standards.

Orebro

Let’s take this one back on topic folks, as a previous poster said 5G doesn’t come into the NBP discussion, thankfully!

westyIrl

Orebro wrote: »

The minister is holding his ground sensibly.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/government-rules-out-mobile-broadband-as-alternative-to-fibre-for-national-broadband-plan-38064514.html

A mobile 5G service is not a suitable alternative to fibre-to-the-home broadband, for many reasons as outlined by Comreg and others," Mr Bruton said in social media comments.

The National Broadband Plan is expected to go before the Cabinet next week.

Best couple of lines I've read in a while. So next Tuesday it is, although wrt timelines I've learned not to expect the expected.

Jim

ussjtrunks

So lads quick question my phone line atm is going under the road to the next pole, the ducting I imagine has been there for 15-20 years is there anything I need to do before Fabre is eventually installed there or would the people laying the cables be clearing these out as part of the work?

Orebro

ussjtrunks wrote: »

So lads quick question my phone line atm is going under the road to the next pole, the ducting I imagine has been there for 15-20 years is there anything I need to do before Fabre is eventually installed there or would the people laying the cables be clearing these out as part of the work?

Now there’s enthusiasm! You’re getting a bit ahead of yourself, it’ll take a few months after the Gov announce the preferred bidder to sign contract etc. If like we’re all hoping it goes ahead then the connection details will become clear.

westyIrl

ussjtrunks wrote: »

So lads quick question my phone line atm is going under the road to the next pole, the ducting I imagine has been there for 15-20 years is there anything I need to do before Fabre is eventually installed there or would the people laying the cables be clearing these out as part of the work?

If you are within the NBP intervention area and assuming all goes well (big assumption) in the coming months, installs are at the very least a year off or more.

However, if it tickles your fancy, check out the Eir rural FTTH thread for issues around clearing ducting etc.

Jim

The Cush

Adrian Weckler's "Big Tech Show" podcast, discussion on the NBP from a few days ago, a good listen

https://soundcloud.com/user-401325083/the-truth-about-rural-broadband?in=user-401325083/sets/the-big-tech-show

BarryM

Concerning the German report. Yes, we haven't got the mast infrastructure, that wasn't the point of the report.

In Germany, and elsewhere, the telecom infrastructure is included in the regulation of spectrum auctions. That way, as is the case in the current German auction, the authority can require infrastructure to line up with investment.

OK, it is too late to do that in RoI, but it could and should be part of the NBP plan. If the gov is to invest €3bn over x years they have an obligation to invest in a future proofed network, as far as possible. The ComT policy is only based on getting in money.

Grab All Association

Ill-informed or another paid shill, you decide.

https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/home/379025/3bn-spend-on-rural-broadband-is-not-getting-value-for-money-says-cllr-kennedy.html

gnf_ireland

Grab All Association wrote: »

Ill-informed or another paid shill, you decide.

https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/home/379025/3bn-spend-on-rural-broadband-is-not-getting-value-for-money-says-cllr-kennedy.html

To be fair the article does not say much, just repeats what he has heard elsewhere with no backing to the statements made.

Its likely he is being asked about rural broadband on the campaign trail so has to say something about it !

The Cush

A few letters in from the Irish Times, basically - 5G good, fibre bad

Sir, – I live in the middle of beautiful countryside in Co Kilkenny. I have a 4G dongle which gives me an excellent broadband service.

With the advent of 5G technology, I wonder do we need to spend €3 billion on fixed-line broadband now?

Are we about to build canals when the train has just been invented? – Yours, etc,

GERARD O’HERLIHY,
Kiltown,
Co Kilkenny.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/national-broadband-plan-1.3877514

Sir, – …
It seems we are now being told that three billion euro is a fair price to pay to the one remaining sole interested provider to deliver a rural broadband plan in the absence of a competitive tender process at this point. Again we are faced with a colossal amount of taxpayer funds relative to our country’s size being remitted to an investment entity which most likely will only be interested in “flipping” its investment at the soonest favourable opportunity. This will entail a short-term commitment only by said entity and most likely for a system that will in the short term also be outmoded, if not obsolete, in the face of newer technology due to come on stream soon.
…

FRANK SLOWEY,
Gorey,
Co Wexford.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/broadband-plan-irresponsible-1.3876350

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

A few letters in from the Irish Times, basically - 5G good, fibre bad

Shilling at its finest.

Jim

KildareP

So Letter 1 is plain and simple "I'm alright Jack"-ery.

Letter 2 is completely contradictory - fibre is supposedly outdated so we should back 5G instead? I mean it's not like we have fibre optic trunking down and operating for decades whereas we've a new "G" or 0.5G or a G+ every 3-5 years, necessitating new hardware or radio or both, ah no...

BarryM

westyIrl wrote: »

Best couple of lines I've read in a while. So next Tuesday it is, although wrt timelines I've learned not to expect the expected.

Jim

After the protests in Cork, where FG used the election of a mayor as a PR activity, I wonder whether a big spend item will be aired.....

Ultimanemo

Right now I am paying €30 a month for 4G I don't use, I joined Three early last year, it was very good in the beginning, as more people joined in it became very slow at peak times, I contacted the company they said go back to 3G, I did, it was OK in the beginning but as more people went back to 3G it became very slow at peak times. Then I joined Imagine and Three router is sitting there doing nothing waiting for my 18 month contract to finish. Imagine is good in the last 2 weeks or so, It was slow at peak times, I don't know how long it will last.

gnf_ireland

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Right now I am paying €30 a month for 4G I don't use, I joined Three early last year, it was very good in the beginning, as more people joined in it became very slow at peak times, I contacted the company they said go back to 3G, I did, it was OK in the beginning but as more people went back to 3G it became very slow at peak times. Then I joined Imagine and Three router is sitting there doing nothing waiting for my 18 month contract to finish. Imagine is good in the last 2 weeks or so, It was slow at peak times, I don't know how long it will last.

Maybe the answer here is for Comreg to grow a pair and only allow operators advertise & sell products based on the 95th or 99th percentile speeds they will achieve - so take out the outliers and the rest is the rate they guarantee the customer. Anything below that rate for say 10 days constitutes a break in contract and the customer can exit the contract penalty free...

But I guess that would be putting the customer's interests first...

Orebro

BarryM wrote: »

After the protests in Cork, where FG used the election of a mayor as a PR activity, I wonder whether a big spend item will be aired.....

Besides the farmers, these protesters were a small bunch of nut jobs intent on disrupting a meeting - I doubt the Gov are losing any sleep over it.

Now if they cancel the NBP, they're going to have a very large bunch of nut jobs protesting, with me being one of them