NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

cregmon

ECO_Mental wrote: »

There is going to have to be a serious PR campaign (which I think they have planned). These 5G lads are really muddying the waters what would Joe public say with 1000,s of masts being put up on every hilltop in the country :rolleyes:. Jaysus its next to impossible to put up an electricity pylon without uproar.....

Agree. Even GSMA say that FTTx has advantages over FWA (GSMA 5g FWA economics). Its not a like-for-like alternative to FTTH. The last mile (wonder when that term will become metric?) costs are determined not just by the technology used but by local variations. Is this a suburban location where all access is by ducts, i.e. no pole infrastructure? Is there a suitable site for a 5G mast? Are premises masked by natural or man-made obstacles? Even performing the surveys to determine the last mile will be costly. I guess in the main, most houses will be assumed to have pole-based access and that there will be a small minority that may still need gap filling with fixed radio.

I've also been reading through this thesis analysis and liked this line -
"Once a country falls behind it then has to outperform just to catch-up and weak preexisting telecommunications infrastructure can impede the diffusion of later communication technologies in a repetitive path-dependent cycle of underdevelopment."
That's the position we find ourselves in now where we have to overspend in the near term to ensure sufficient progress is made to offset the underspend in the last few decades since TE's IPO.

Addendum:
Then there's this update from the OECD which shows the % uptake (or is it just % premises passed). Ireland has grown from 0.3% in 2015 to 4.3% in Q2-2018. What puzzles me is that apparently we went from 0.5% in 2010 to 0.3% in 2015! Not sure if the numbers were just transcribed incorrectly or if there's another reason.

fergus1001

https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-the-government-spend-e3bn-on-the-national-broadband-plan-4622078-May2019/

vote yes please

celticbhoy27

fergus1001 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-the-government-spend-e3bn-on-the-national-broadband-plan-4622078-May2019/

vote yes please

Really wished I hadn't read the comments on that poll. Between the I'm alright jack brigade and the clowns calling for 5g my gears are well and truely grinded.

Mortelaro

fergus1001 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-the-government-spend-e3bn-on-the-national-broadband-plan-4622078-May2019/

vote yes please

Ordinary people normally don't comment on online articles especially on that site,just angry ill informed people in my opinion
Hence the 600 or so regulars voting no
They think its another children's hospital

The Cush

NBP briefing by Dept of An Taoiseach

How much will it cost?

The cost to the State is €2.97 billion – less than half of what the overall cost of the project is. This price includes VAT and a contingency fund. The contingency or slush fund set aside is €545 million, and will only be allowed to be drawn down in set down specific incidences. VAT accounts for €355 million.

The majority of the €2.97 billion will be paid in the first ten years, though payments will be made over 25 years.
If the uptake is lower than expected the State subsidy paid to National Broadband Ireland will be less, as the government will not be paying for connections that are not taken up by customers – therefore, the argument being made is that the risk lies with the company not the State.
The contract sets out that National Broadband Ireland only gets paid when connections are made to a certain standard. The department will test the connections every quarter to ensure a certain quality is being rolled out.

https://www.thejournal.ie/national-broadband-plan-8-4622279-May2019/

https://twitter.com/gloverstweets/status/1125699946408235008

https://twitter.com/gloverstweets/status/1125721716964175872

The Cush

https://www.thejournal.ie/national-broadband-plan-8-4622279-May2019/

CABINET IS EXPECTED to approve the €3 billion National Broadband Plan (NBP) which aims to bring high-speed internet to more than 540,000 homes, farms and businesses across rural Ireland.

The first customers will be connected next year, while some may not get internet connection for up to seven years, depending on the roll out plan.

The National Broadband Plan, first announced in 2012, aims to bring high-speed internet to parts of the country – smaller towns and one-off homes – that are unlikely to be viable business prospects for commercial providers.

The plan has since been beset by delays and setbacks, including the withdrawal of Eir and rival broadband infrastructure giant Siro, a joint venture between Vodafone and ESB, from the bidding process.

US-based investment firm Granahan McCourt is the only firm still vying for the contract for the project, which it plans to build with a group of subcontractors. SSE had been part of its consortium, however the energy giant pulled out of the group in July.

A contract had been expected to be awarded last year, with then communications minister Denis Naughten – who eventually quit his ministerial post over a series of controversial meetings with Granahan McCourt chief David McCourt.

Criticism has been levelled at the government over pressing ahead with the bid, with some in the opposition stating that the State will not own the network.
A lot is being talked about, so here’s what we know.

How many homes will get fibre broadband and how many will get wireless connections?

Majority of premises will get fibre broadband, however the Department of Communications estimates that about 1%-2% will have wireless connection.
The homes and businesses which fall into this percentile are premises that the most remote, where it is physically not possible to get fibre broadband to the home and where the cost of rolling out fibre will be too expensive.

How much will it cost?

The cost to the State is €2.97 billion – less than half of what the overall cost of the project is. This price includes VAT and a contingency fund. The contingency or slush fund set aside is €545 million, and will only be allowed to be drawn down in set down specific incidences. VAT accounts for €355 million.

The majority of the €2.97 billion will be paid in the first ten years, though payments will be made over 25 years.
If the uptake is lower than expected the State subsidy paid to National Broadband Ireland will be less, as the government will not be paying for connections that are not taken up by customers – therefore, the argument being made is that the risk lies with the company not the State.
The contract sets out that National Broadband Ireland only gets paid when connections are made to a certain standard. The department will test the connections every quarter to ensure a certain quality is being rolled out.

How fast will it be?

The connection is to be 150mbps by year one, but under the contract it is to reach 500mbps by year eleven.

How much will customers pay?

Under the plan, customers in rural Ireland will pay the same prices as those in urban areas. It is envisaged that ‘bundles’ will be offered by all the main telecoms operators, where people can buy access to TV, broadband and phone. The wholesale connection charge will be set at €100 per premises, though this charge is generally build into the package and not generally passed on to customer up front.

What about a rural house on a far removed mountain that does not want to be connected?

Technically, homes, businesses and farms will not be connected unless they make an order, but the service must be made available in all areas around Ireland. This means that if and when a premises decides it wants to get access to internet, the owner can place an order and it must be carried out. The contract also sets out that internet access must be made available within a set out time period.

How much cable will be used?

About 144,000 kilometres of fibre cable will be installed on about 90,000 Eir poles around Ireland to deliver access to broadband

When will the contract be signed and published?

The contract with the McCourt consortium runs to over 1,500 pages and is due to be signed in the next three to six months. The contract will be published after that point.

What network will National Broadband Ireland use?

The company has opted to install the fibre cables on poles owned by Eir. Leasing these cables from Eir will cost in the region of up to €1 billion.

Is this value for money?

That is the big questions today. The Secretary General of the Department of Finance has warned Finance and Public Expenditure Paschal Donohoe that this plan is not value for money, though senior sources in the Department of Communications refute this and state rigourous cost evaluations were carried out.

Re-tendering the project could take another two to three years and there would no guarantee it would cost any less, said the government. Some in opposition state that a State agency like the ESB should be tasked with the job, but this would breach State aid and procurement rules.

ECO_Mental

The Cush wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/national-broadband-plan-8-4622279-May2019/




How fast will it be?

The connection is to be 150mbps by year one, but under the contract it is to reach 500mbps by year eleven.

I am presuming that the option will be there for punters to get 1Gbs if they want, the infrastructure is there to take it if you have FTTH

Mortelaro

ECO_Mental wrote: »

I am presuming that the option will be there for punters to get 1Gbs if they want, the infrastructure is there to take it if you have FTTH

I'd imagine it's a casualty of language
The contract must be specifying 150 now as a min and a desire to reach 500 without much reference to the fact that the service can and does provide 1Gb
That doesn't stop the norm being provided

Marlow

ECO_Mental wrote: »

I am presuming that the option will be there for punters to get 1Gbs if they want, the infrastructure is there to take it if you have FTTH

Not necessarily. By keeping it to 150 Mbit/s they can actually stick more houses in every cluster and cut cost to a certain level. All the contract calls for is 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s going forward. They could even do that on FTTH. Lots of places with sub 100M speeds on FTTH in other countries.

/M

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/national-broadband-plan-8-4622279-May2019/



The cost to the State is €2.97 billion – less than half of what the overall cost of the project is.

Jaysus!

ussjtrunks

So what’s actually happening today? Are we not getting it signed today or are they doing something else?

The Cush

ussjtrunks wrote: »

So what’s actually happening today? Are we not getting it signed today or are they doing something else?

Cabinet approval of contract to be offered to NBI.

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

Not necessarily. By keeping it to 150 Mbit/s they can actually stick more houses in every cluster and cut cost to a certain level. All the contract calls for is 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s going forward. They could even do that on FTTH. Lots of places with sub 100M speeds on FTTH in other countries.

/M

I'd be very happy with 150 Mbps, I'm currently on an up to 3 Mbps WISP.

Mortelaro

Marlow wrote: »

Not necessarily. By keeping it to 150 Mbit/s they can actually stick more houses in every cluster and cut cost to a certain level. All the contract calls for is 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s going forward. They could even do that on FTTH. Lots of places with sub 100M speeds on FTTH in other countries.

/M

Pardon the pun if I'm not up to speed on this but didn't the govt say some time ago that 30mb wasn't enough and min spec now should be 150?

Jakey Rolling

1 billion to Eir for use of their crappy poles - money for old rope!

Given the time it thas historically taken them to fix downed poles and wires in our area, I hope there is some enforceable SLA written in to the rental agreement to ensure these outages are dealt with promptly in the future.

The Cush

westyIrl wrote: »

Jaysus!

Speculated this a few days ago, no way the state would have forked out €6bn+ required on its own over a short period of time.

The Cush wrote: »

We have no idea at this point what the overall cost is or what GMC are investing, maybe we'll find out next week.

Lets say the state are putting in 50% of the cost, what would be the outcry be if the state had to do it on its own for €6bn? They went for the partially state funded commercial stimulus or 'Gap Funding' model over the full concession model where the full cost of the project would be financed by the state over a 3-6 year period.

Ten Pin

How much cable will be used?

About 144,000 kilometres of fibre cable will be installed on about 90,000 Eir poles around Ireland to deliver access to broadband

What network will National Broadband Ireland use?

The company has opted to install the fibre cables on poles owned by Eir. Leasing these cables from Eir will cost in the region of up to €1 billion.

So are they leasing eir fibre from the last fibre enabled pole or running new fibre all the way??

If it's just poles they're renting then...
1bn over 90k poles over 25 years is 444 euro per pole per annum. What's the cost of putting a new pole up?

A detailed breakdown from the dept staff would be better than just a political press release, suppose that'll be published after the contract is signed.

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

Speculated this a few days ago, no way the state would have forked out €6bn+ required on its own over a short period of time.

Didn't see the overall costs being at that level so took me by surprise. Either way if Eir and Siro costings were in that ballpark also, it certainly strengthens the Government's hand to sell this plan politically as GMC is assuming significant risk at that level of subsidy.

Either way, progress! I'm not complaining today.

Jim

The Cush

Ten Pin wrote: »

So are they leasing eir fibre from the last pole or running new fibre all the way??

If it's just poles they're renting then...
1bn over 90k poles over 25 years is 444 euro per pole per annum. What's the cost of putting a new pole up?.

Also access to ducts, exchanges etc. at regulated pricing - over 25 years

Marlow

Mortelaro wrote: »

Pardon the pun if I'm not up to speed on this but didn't the govt say some time ago that 30mb wasn't enough and min spec now should be 150?

No. The contract called for a minimum of 30 Mbit/s and I can't remember at what point (I think it's 2020) then 100 Mbit/s.

150 Mbit/s was not mentioned, but has sort of been developed as the minimum profile for FTTH in Ireland. So when they mention 150 Mbit/s they're just following the remainder of the market.

My dad was on 80 Mbit/s FTTH for years (in Denmark) and the slowest package available to him was 40 Mbit/s. They've recently upgraded him to 100 Mbit/s (probably due to the same suggestions which the 100 Mbit/s mark in the NBP is based on). Of course he can get more ... at a price .. but he doesn't need that. The products we get offered here are way beyond what the standard is in other markets.

/M

SkepticQuark

Approve it and let's get the show on the road for real so we can stop talking about if it will happen.

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

No. The contract called for a minimum of 30 Mbit/s and I can't remember at what point (I think it's 2020) then 100 Mbit/s.

100 Mbps by 2025 recommended by the European Commission

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/broadband-europe

Tigerandahalf

Is there any word on who will carry out the actual contract work.
Will it be Irish workers putting money back into the economy or contracted foreign labour?

fergus1001

celticbhoy27 wrote:

Really wished I hadn't read the comments on that poll. Between the I'm alright jack brigade and the clowns calling for 5g my gears are well and truely grinded.

and as "De journal" has a mostly Dublin based audience the figures are being skewed

Marlow

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Is there any word on who will carry out the actual contract work.
Will it be Irish workers putting money back into the economy or contracted foreign labour?

Actavo is one of the technology parters of NBI, if I recall correctly.

/M

Persiancowboy

Mortelaro wrote: »

Pardon the pun if I'm not up to speed on this but didn't the govt say some time ago that 30mb wasn't enough and min spec now should be 150?

With a fibre solution now in sight we should all stop focusing on speeds....what you get with fibre is a resilient, future-proofed technology.

As someone with ftth due to eir's emasculation of the original NBP map/intervention area, I no longer have to even check my speeds....the thing works as it should and downloading/uploading is done in seconds. Speed will therefore become irrelevant for the vast majority of punters.

Marlow

Persiancowboy wrote: »

Speed will therefore become irrelevant for the vast majority of punters.

Yep .... it's only important to the willy waving speedtest.net needle junkies ... who then have to find out, that the hardware they have can't even max the package they bought.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

Not necessarily. By keeping it to 150 Mbit/s they can actually stick more houses in every cluster and cut cost to a certain level. All the contract calls for is 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s going forward. They could even do that on FTTH. Lots of places with sub 100M speeds on FTTH in other countries.

/M

Cut costs? They're spending €6 ****ing billion euro. If it is not XGS-PON someone needs firing.

tsue921i8wljb3

Ten Pin wrote: »

So are they leasing eir fibre from the last fibre enabled pole or running new fibre all the way??

If it's just poles they're renting then...
1bn over 90k poles over 25 years is 444 euro per pole per annum. What's the cost of putting a new pole up?

A detailed breakdown from the dept staff would be better than just a political press release, suppose that'll be published after the contract is signed.

I speculated before that they would have to run new fibre all the way. Such a massive figure leads credence to that theory.

Marlow

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Cut costs? They're spending €6 ****ing billion euro. If it is not XGS-PON someone needs firing.

And you believe, that with an unsensible contract like this one and an unsensible department managing it, the outcome will be sensible ?

If pigs could fly.

/M

cregmon

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I speculated before that they would have to run new fibre all the way. Such a massive figure leads credence to that theory.

Do we know if the tender or other docs describe how the backhual has to be provisioned? Do NBI have to build their own or can they reuse competitor's existing infra? Is backhaul subject to Comreg oversight?

ECO_Mental

Marlow wrote: »

Yep .... it's only important to the willy waving speedtest.net needle junkies ... who then have to find out, that the hardware they have can't even max the package they bought.

/M

Tru dat!....I have currently 1Gbs eir FTTH and to be honest any real world downloading (large game files 80GB+ from xbox) tops out normally at around 200 Mbs ever. I could save a few bob and drop my profile but I like waving my big Willie around the place:D:D:D

tsue921i8wljb3

westyIrl wrote: »

Didn't see the overall costs being at that level so took me by surprise. Either way if Eir and Siro costings were in that ballpark also, it certainly strengthens the Government's hand to sell this plan politically as GMC is assuming significant risk at that level of subsidy.

Either way, progress! I'm not complaining today.

Jim

I can't wait for eir to come out saying they could have done it for less, probably a lot less.

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

And you believe, that with an unsensible contract like this one and an unsensible department managing it, the outcome will be sensible ?

If pigs could fly.

/M

Yes I believe it will be XGS-PON. Why would you build a new network on old technology.

Marlow

cregmon wrote: »

Do we know if the tender or other docs describe how the backhual has to be provisioned? Do NBI have to build their own or can they reuse competitor's existing infra? Is backhaul subject to Comreg oversight?

- It is supposed to an open network.
- It is unknown, if operators have to bring their network to the interconnects (like SIRO) or get the traffic aggregated delivered at one or more central points (like OpenEIR)
- no, they can not use other operators infrastructure for delivery (apart from poles, ducts, dark fibre). But they certainly can use other operators for backhaul, as long as it is transparent
- no, this is not under Comreg oversight. It is under oversight of the Dept of Comms.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

cregmon wrote: »

Do we know if the tender or other docs describe how the backhual has to be provisioned? Do NBI have to build their own or can they reuse competitor's existing infra? Is backhaul subject to Comreg oversight?

I don't think it specifies how it should be provisioned. My theory was that leasing dark fibre from eir may have cost more than building new cable from scratch.

Marlow

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I don't think it specifies how it should be provisioned. My theory was that leasing dark fibre from eir may have cost more than building new cable from scratch.

It actually does not cost more. That product has a regulated price .. and it's good pricing. The problem is, that OpenEIR does not have to make the product available .. at all .. unless it can not provide pole and/or duct space in an area, as there is no physical capacity to add more fibres/subducts.

/M

The Cush

cregmon wrote: »

Do we know if the tender or other docs describe how the backhual has to be provisioned? Do NBI have to build their own or can they reuse competitor's existing infra? Is backhaul subject to Comreg oversight?

You'll find the tender docs here, Lot 1C applies I believe - https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=95143&HL=0&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

Comreg has no oversight on the NBP or any backhaul such as the MANs.

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

- It is supposed to an open network.
- It is unknown, if operators have to bring their network to the interconnects (like SIRO) or get the traffic aggregated delivered at one or more central points (like OpenEIR)
- no, they can not use other operators infrastructure for delivery (apart from poles, ducts, dark fibre). But they certainly can use other operators for backhaul, as long as it is transparent
- no, this is not under Comreg oversight. It is under oversight of the Dept of Comms.

/M

McCourt said before that the MANS would be used so I suspect it will be like open eir and providers would take traffic from MAN towns.

Marlow

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

McCourt said before that the MANS would be used so I suspect it will be like open eir and providers would take traffic from MAN towns.

It's not unlikely, that they haul it back to the MAN towns, yes. That way they can then offer an aggregate solution (additionally) in conjunction with eNet.

But it's not defined, so who knows ?

/M

Gary kk

So any idea about when a detailed plan for the roll is to be published

tsue921i8wljb3

Gary kk wrote: »

So any idea about when a detailed plan for the roll is to be published

That's still months away I'd imagine.

The Cush

Gary kk wrote: »

So any idea about when a detailed plan for the roll is to be published

If awarded the contract, NBI has to do what they call the low-level detailed design for the for each of the 100 areas of 5,000 premises. I think this has to be done before the contract is signed.

The Cush

Cabinet meeting continues

ussjtrunks

Scenes If they say no

Pique

ussjtrunks wrote: »

Scenes If they say no

Us culchies have an ample supply of pitchforks

BarryM

Jaysus, some of the cabinet must have be listening to the Coleman rant on Newstalk this morning.

The Cush

BarryM wrote: »

Jaysus, some of the cabinet must have be listening to the Coleman rant on Newstalk this morning.

While we wait …

https://www.newstalk.com/shows/newstalk-breakfast-234855

BarryM

SkepticQuark wrote: »

I doubt this **** will ever end even if cabinet approve of it...

It is worth pointing out, before the bullsh.. from the cabinet meeting, that a properly incentivised government plan should include government use of the facilities. I would bet that one of the biggest, probably THE biggest user of data networking is the government itself.

Does anybody have any figures on the leased line rentals paid by, for example, the HSE, the Guards, the Revenue, etc.? Don't believe the 'we need them for security' shyte.

ussjtrunks

will we get anymore details today if the dail agree?