NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

tsue921i8wljb3

roast wrote: »

Thanks.

Christ!



For them, I'd say so, but this is probably their attempt at proving a concept to submit for tender.

I agree. It is most likely their proof of concept demonstration for the department, much like Ripplecom conducted trials recently. I guess some social media manager got wind of "for the NBP" and posted it. The department have not even launched the procurement phase yet so I don't see how Imagine can claim to have secured a contract.

I just hope whoever is making the procurement decisions can see through their snake oil.

ACLFC7

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I agree. It is most likely their proof of concept demonstration for the department, much like Ripplecom conducted trials recently. I guess some social media manager got wind of "for the NBP" and posted it. The department have not even launched the procurement phase yet so I don't see how Imagine can claim to have secured a contract.

I just hope whoever is making the procurement decisions can see through their snake oil.

They have a page set up for it http://www.imagine.ie/fibreconnect/
It uses the words, Proposed coverage.

tsue921i8wljb3

ACLFC7 wrote: »

They have a page set up for it http://www.imagine.ie/fibreconnect/
It uses the words, Proposed coverage.

I love the phrase "Connecting More People in More Places to Fibre". If as suggested on the Facebook page it is a wireless product is this not blatant false advertising? I suppose they will get away with as it is probably backhauled by fibre at some hop.

Tommy Lagahan

roast wrote: »

Agreed, but I'd much prefer fixed wireless @ 100Mb instead of dodgy 4g/3g as a solution for the few % of places that can't be served by fibre.

Funnily enough my 3G stick + antenna is faster than my 5GHz 10Mbit fixed wireless nearly all of the time. 3G gets between 5 and 14Mbit and the fixed dish on the roof gets between 1-2Mbit most of the time. WISPs are scam artists, every single one of them.

Gheadphone

What type of stick/antenna combo do you have Tommy?

mass_debater

Tommy Lagahan wrote: »

Funnily enough my 3G stick + antenna is faster than my 5GHz 10Mbit fixed wireless nearly all of the time. 3G gets between 5 and 14Mbit and the fixed dish on the roof gets between 1-2Mbit most of the time. WISPs are scam artists, every single one of them.

How does the monthly data limit compare between them?

Tommy Lagahan

Gheadphone wrote: »

What type of stick/antenna combo do you have Tommy?

Was no easy task getting reliable speeds out of 3G, Three is just as bad as my local WISP, though their backhaul isn't as bad.
Huawei E3276S-150 factory unlocked with a Poynting XPOL-A0002 antenna. Shortened the cables down to ~20cm to reduce loss through them, took apart the modem and stuck a heatsink to the hottest chips on it. Should be mighty speeds with 4G whenever it rolls in since the modem and antenna work with Three's bands. Problem is that 4G doesnt seem to work with the 3internet APN so I'll get closed NAT on 3ireland instead.

mass_debater wrote: »

How does the monthly data limit compare between them?

Both "unlimited".
NWE - the WISP - claim to be unlimited but start throttling you if you go over 1GB in a day. Even below that 1GB the contention has their service banjaxed down to ~1Mbit or utterly dead at peak.To think these cowboys sell a 50Mbit fixed package as well... :rolleyes:

Three is 20 quid a month for "unlimited" as well, haven't been hit with anything for hammering it with bandwidth.... yet.

Gonzo

this is about the last thing that the NBP needs is this outdated wireless rubbish.

rob808

Gonzo wrote: »

this is about the last thing that the NBP needs is this outdated wireless rubbish.

yea I think imagine doing what eir doing so many of those houses in Kildare will be out of NBP.:mad:

ACLFC7

rob808 wrote: »

yea I think imagine doing what eir doing so many of those houses in Kildare will be out of NBP.:mad:

I'm guessing you live in Kildare too?

I've never had any fixed line broadband (Eircom/Vodafone...) where I live. Using mobile broadband with useless usage limits. Gonna be pissed off if wireless is gonna be the only solution for the foreseeable future.

Gonzo

rob808 wrote: »

yea I think imagine doing what eir doing so many of those houses in Kildare will be out of NBP.:mad:

well hopefully it wont count because we all know it's gonna be crap. Wireless may not work properly at all locations, dodgy pings, line of sight problems, congestion and caps. I would rather put up with my current 9 meg ADSL than go to a wireless connection. Hopefully the powers that be will realise as well that FTTH is the only way the NBP is gonna work.

They are claiming that Eir won't do the rural FTTH, that has to be complete bs, well it better be a bs excuse from Imagine. The only reason I believe that it is bs is that Eir are not gonna sit idle and let another network spring up and take away everything from them.

xxyyzz

Anything but wireless
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/4756558932

rob808

ACLFC7 wrote: »

I'm guessing you live in Kildare too?

I've never had any fixed line broadband (Eircom/Vodafone...) where I live. Using mobile broadband with useless usage limits. Gonna be pissed off if wireless is gonna be the only solution for the foreseeable future.

nah live in meath just hate imagine

murphaph

Hybrid DSL/LTE might creep into the plan. It's commercially available across Germany since March or so. It works basically as follows:
You need a hybrid capable modem. At present the only device on the market is the "Speedport Hybrid" Deutsche Telekom provide (it's a Huawei device inside). This device has a DSL connection and an LTE connection. It uses the DSL as much as possible and if the DSL is swamped, it sends and receives traffic over LTE. On the other side, Telekom stitches the data back together and forwards it on.

Telekom allows even what they call DSL-light users (so the poor unfortunates out in the sticks with a truly terrible 384kpbs download) to avail of this service. It remains to be seen how the LTE network holds up as more people make use of this service.

A DSL-Light or DSL-6000 customer can "boost" their speeds with LTE up to 16Mbps. A DSL 16000 customer (ADSL2+ Annex B causes less available bandwidth nence ADSL2+ connections here only go up to 16Mbps) can "boost" their speeds with LTE up to 50Mbps. They even allow VDSL users on 50Mbps to "boost" over LTE up to the full 100Mbps, though expected uptake there would be very low.

There are no data caps for either DSL or LTE components! pure LTE is always capped here, as it is in Ireland. Telekom obviously reckons that the majority of traffic will still end up going over the DSL, leaving their LTE network in relative peace, otherwise the whole concept would be madness.

The upsides are obvious: people with even very poor ADSL, especially those far from exchanges in rural areas, can enjoy a massive speed boost up to "urban" speeds.

The downsides are mainly (IMO) that the modem/router Telekom supply is basically a piece of junk. sure, it can do the hybrid trickery but it lacks a host of functionality you'd find in a FritzBox and the biggest problem: it doesn't function as a modem. You can't bridge it at all. You are forced to use its router part.

I don't think this hybrid DSL/LTE is actually available in too many places in the world. To me it's a sign that Telekom is way behind in decent fixed broadband more than anything else, but the technology exists and it would almost certainly satisfy the minimum speeds of any NBP specification, though as it's shared medium who knows how crappy it can get when congested.

rob808

I don't think DSL/LTE hybrid would work in Ireland fibre the best way forward.I have little fate in NBP since the goverment always keep making wrong choices.

I do see eir doing there FTTH roll to rural areas because they don't want to blacken there new name by going back to there old ways.I think what imagine said is bs they just want to keep there grip on rural areas.

ACLFC7

Do you think one area could be covered by 2 providers under the national broadband plan?
Imagine will be supplying broadband to my area under the NBP (if that facebook post was accurate).
But I will also be covered by Eir's "Rural Fibre Routes" according to their map.

bk

Eir looked into possibly using 4G, but found that the costs to actually reach the EU minimums, it would end up costing more then FTTH in the long term (way higher ongoing maintenance and operational costs).

Eir did a pretty comprehensive 150 page report into the options for the NBP and to be honest it pretty much rubbishes any sort of wireless for anything but the most extreme case (isolated house on top of a mountain).

rob808

ACLFC7 wrote: »

Do you think one area could be covered by 2 providers under the national broadband plan?
Imagine will be supplying broadband to my area under the NBP (if that facebook post was accurate).
But I will also be covered by Eir's "Rural Fibre Routes" according to their map.

well no imagine doing what eir doing just on a smaller scale.There doing this as a showcase for there NBP submission so they get some of the NBP tender contract.They are hoping that the houses they cover will be out of NBP keeping most of there customers.

bk

ACLFC7 wrote: »

Do you think one area could be covered by 2 providers under the national broadband plan?
Imagine will be supplying broadband to my area under the NBP (if that facebook post was accurate).
But I will also be covered by Eir's "Rural Fibre Routes" according to their map.

Well there would be only one operator under the NBP. The NBP just means they receive a government subsidy.

But that doesn't stop another operator supplying service on a purely commercial bases. That is what Eir's "Rural Fibre Routes" seem to be, Eit supplying FTTH on a purely commercial basis, with no government subsidy.

So under this case, you could get service from either.

Though that is based on the current plans, it seems an updated NBP map is due to be published soon, which may end up excluding these Eir areas from the NBP. Thus no money for Imagine.

rob808

bk wrote: »

Well there would be only one operator under the NBP. The NBP just means they receive a government subsidy.

But that doesn't stop another operator supplying service on a purely commercial bases. That is what Eir's "Rural Fibre Routes" seem to be, Eit supplying FTTH on a purely commercial basis, with no subsidy.

So under this case, you could get service from either.

Though that is based on the current plans, it seems an updated NBP map is due to be published soon, which may end up excluding these Eir areas from the NBP. Thus no money for Imagine.

I don't think imagine getting any money of the goverment yet.There show there arrogant side by saying eir won't do any of the FTTH to rural areas how would they know and that 1 reason I wouldn't like them to win any of NBP.

KOR101

The government would have to move quite a distance from what they said in their Intervention Strategy to now include the wireless companies. What, technologically speaking, has really changed in the past couple of months.

rob808

KOR101 wrote: »

The government would have to move quite a distance from what they said in their Intervention Strategy to now include the wireless companies. What, technologically speaking, has really changed in the past couple of months.

well if they pick wisp as the winners of the NBP then it already a failure in my eyes especially if they do it just to save money.

tvc15

Does anyone know what technology Image are actually proposing? The signs I've seen are for 30 - 100 mbs, is it bog standard LTE stuff in this case?

dbit

I have no doubt about Eir running fiber to the to the boonies , recently while on a sunday outing to Inchigeelagh, Co. Cork, I spotted more fiber runs on poles - these places have a very small population and the road takes some inclines and turns that would terrify a mountain goat. They are doing it and i do believe they are the only ones to really offer FTTH for rural for the future . Comless Eir. Irish Eir .........

guil

dbit wrote: »

I have no doubt about Eir running fiber to the to the boonies , recently while on a sunday outing to Inchigeelagh, Co. Cork, I spotted more fiber runs on poles - these places have a very small population and the road takes some inclines and turns that would terrify a mountain goat. They are doing it and i do believe they are the only ones to really offer FTTH for rural for the future . Comless Eir. Irish Eir .........

Can it be true? Dbit is giving eir credit!!!!

xxyyzz

dbit wrote: »

I have no doubt about Eir running fiber to the to the boonies , recently while on a sunday outing to Inchigeelagh, Co. Cork, I spotted more fiber runs on poles - these places have a very small population and the road takes some inclines and turns that would terrify a mountain goat. They are doing it and i do believe they are the only ones to really offer FTTH for rural for the future . Comless Eir. Irish Eir .........

Complete newb question but, Do they run the fibre cable along the existing electricity cables?

ED E

xxyyzz wrote: »

Complete newb question but, Do they run the fibre cable along the existing electricity cables?

Thats what SIRO are doing, eircom are using their own plant (poles+ducts).

The Cush

3 week consultation - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Consultation-on-the-process-for-updating-the-High-Speed-Broadband-Map-–-preduring-and-post-procurement.aspx

Press release - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/news-and-media/en-ie/Pages/PressRelease/Department-of-Communications-consults-on-management-of-its-high-speed-broadband-map.aspx

etenders Prior Information Notice (PIN)
https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=85735&B=&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/175135

rob808

The Cush wrote: »

3 week consultation - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Consultation-on-the-process-for-updating-the-High-Speed-Broadband-Map-–-preduring-and-post-procurement.aspx

Press release - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/news-and-media/en-ie/Pages/PressRelease/Department-of-Communications-consults-on-management-of-its-high-speed-broadband-map.aspx

etenders Prior Information Notice (PIN)
https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=85735&B=&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/175135

It gona be interesting to see the update map in November hoping to see if my house covered by Eir FTTH.

ACLFC7

http://www.imagine.ie/fibreconnect/
Imagine called me yesterday. They said the network in the Kilteel / Rathmore area should be live with a week or two. No usage limits but he said maybe a 300 or 400GB usage policy(it didn't sound like he had official numbers.)

I won't be joining because I still have 2 or 3 months left on my mobile broadband contract with Three.

irishfeen

Sorry to sound stupid lads and ladies but imagine.ie ... I fall inside their proposed maps there - what are they planning to do? - website doesn't give much away from what I see.

rob808

ACLFC7 wrote: »

http://www.imagine.ie/fibreconnect/
Imagine called me yesterday. They said the network in the Kilteel / Rathmore area should be live with a week or two. No usage limits but he said maybe a 300 or 400GB usage policy(it didn't sound like he had official numbers.)

I won't be joining because I still have 2 or 3 months left on my mobile broadband contract with Three.

I wonder what there connecting ratio will be look like there increasing there footprint now with cork I guess there worry about eir FTTH rural rollout.

It funny they say fibre but don't give out any info on what technology there using 300Gb to 400Gb believe it when I see it in writing on there website.

Did they give you a price what it be and the speeds that you likely get?.

KOR101

This is great news. A proper technical and financial assessment of any proposals before those houses are taken out of the NBP. Can't copy and paste from PDFs on my mobile, but there appears to be no way the government will be blindsided by mere 'expressions of interest.' to commercially provide rural fibre.

MajesticDonkey

To be fair, I'm impressed by how the DCENR are dealing with the NBP this time round. Hopefully it continues that way.

ED E

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

To be fair, I'm impressed by how the DCENR are dealing with the NBP this time round. Hopefully it continues that way.

Election is only round the corner, just wait and see.

rob808

ED E wrote: »

Election is only round the corner, just wait and see.

well hopefully the contract are sign and bid or bidders choose doh doesn't really matter who get in they still have do the NBP.

ED E

Not if the Dept of Finance just cuts the funding.

rob808

ED E wrote: »

Not if the Dept of Finance just cuts the funding.

well don't think they would since it already cut in half.The new goverment would just piss people off that already have being living with cuts in everything.

KOR101

rob808 wrote: »

well hopefully the contract are sign and bid or bidders choose doh doesn't really matter who get in they still have do the NBP.

No, contracts to be signed mid 2016, so that's after the election.

rob808

KOR101 wrote: »

No, contracts to be signed mid 2016, so that's after the election.

Oh ok but still don't think the new goverment would mess with NBP since most the work done for them they be mad if they did.

BandMember

rob808 wrote: »

Oh ok but still don't think the new goverment would mess with NBP since most the work done for them they be mad if they did.

If a new Government can find (read: take) money from some long term project that they may not be in office to see completed and put it into some short term popularity stunt, they will do it in a heartbeat - no matter what party they are from! Don't kid yourself otherwise.....

Now, rant over and back on topic. :cool:

rob808

BandMember wrote: »

If a new Government can find (read: take) money from some long term project that they may not be in office to see completed and put it into some short term popularity stunt, they will do it in a heartbeat - no matter what party they are from! Don't kid yourself otherwise.....

Now, rant over and back on topic. :cool:

well I see what your saying but there all the same but either way it has to be done there good chance the NBP could be a failure which is a shame.

dbit

New Gov , Old Gov they are of the same thing , nothing will be done and we are all sitting here expecting nothing more or nothing less . Such faith we have in those we elect . Similar the level of faith we have in this project . B4rn styled projects would see this done in a quater of the time our profound leaders could accomplish it .

KOR101

dbit wrote: »

New Gov , Old Gov they are of the same thing , nothing will be done and we are all sitting here expecting nothing more or nothing less . Such faith we have in those we elect . Similar the level of faith we have in this project . B4rn styled projects would see this done in a quater of the time our profound leaders could accomplish it .

Have you read the documents about the process for updating the map.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/Pages/Consultation/Consultation-on-the-process-for-updating-the-High-Speed-Broadband-Map-%E2%80%93-preduring-and-post-procurement.aspx#

I'm really impressed by the rigour of their approach. From the annexes....







I'm surprised their hasn't been more comment on this.

For example, "1.4 Does the solution rely on optical (or equivalent)
technology?" This appears to be a prerequisite! Elsewhere they do say that if a proposal requires more spectrum, the fact that it has not yet been acquired will not count against the proposal. Not sure what this means. Does Eir use radio spectrum for example to bridge the gap to Sneem and then lay fibre to cabinets in Sneem?

dbit

IF only life was a bunch of words on a page . I would love that to be brought to fruition only i dont really beleive a word of it .

tsue921i8wljb3

clohamon has posted here about the responses to the DCENR July consultations. Reading Imagine's response to the Technical part is indicative of their intentions.

They are already arguing that the 6Mb/s upload speed falls outside of State Aid rules. They keep referring to the "Step Change" mentioned in earlier documents.

According to Imagine a "Step Change" is double the existing upload speed of existing connections. So if you have a 512Kb upload 1Mb is their defintion of a "Step Change". Some quotes from them:

No evidence is provided which supports the use, demand for or applications which require a 6Mb upload speed. In addition no evidence is provided which in any way suggests that the 6Mbit/s uplink capability provided by the existing NGA networks is actually used or required by the users.

On this basis and using the broad definition of a step change being double the average speed of existing services as used in the UK and German state aid schemes the appropriate benchmark for upload if it were to be specified at all should be no more than 2Mbps.

rob808

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

clohamon has posted here about the responses to the DCENR July consultations. Reading Imagine's response to the Technical part is indicative of their intentions.

They are already arguing that the 6Mb/s upload speed falls outside of State Aid rules. They keep referring to the "Step Change" mentioned in earlier documents.

According to Imagine a "Step Change" is double the existing upload speed of existing connections. So if you have a 512Kb upload 1Mb is their defintion of a "Step Change". Some quotes from them:

That Imagine crowd there some piece of work alway trying to lower the NBP speed next we have ripplecom saying there no need for 30mb because 20mb good enough for YouTube ,gaming,ect.:)

jd

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

clohamon has posted here about the responses to the DCENR July consultations. Reading Imagine's response to the Technical part is indicative of their intentions.

I can see all this ending up in the courts for review..

tvc15

A neighbor of mine had imagine out in Kildare for their attempt at their fibreconnect broadband trial but they couldn't get a signal anywhere on the exterior of the house, what would be their plan for national broadband in these cases

tsue921i8wljb3

jd wrote: »

I can see all this ending up in the courts for review..

That would not surprise me at all.

tvc15 wrote: »

A neighbor of mine had imagine out in Kildare for their attempt at their fibreconnect broadband trial but they couldn't get a signal anywhere on the exterior of the house, what would be their plan for national broadband in these cases

It is yet another reason that a fixed wireless solution is less than ideal. What does rural Ireland have - lots of trees. I have no idea what they propose to do for customers that fail a line of sight test.