NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

The Cush

Committee in public session now - https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr2-live/

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

3pm this afternoon - Richard Bruton, Minister for Communications, meeting with the Joint Committee on Communications in CR2 discussing the National Broadband Plan

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr2-live/

Just kicking off now.

Jim

The Cush

GMC - €175M in working capital and €45m in equity.




https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1128285302232055808

ArrBee

westyIrl wrote: »

I've been giving this some thought over the past couple of days also and hypothesizing where the chips may fall in the intervention areas.

Is there anything restricting OE competing for connections with NBI in those NBP areas over the course of the contract? i know it may not be in OE interests initially as they upgrade their passive infrastructure. However, one would have to say its a reasonable possibility that in the long term OE would, at least in my head, stand in a more 'efficient' position that NBI. I realise that most likely it'll develop in a way that none of us could probably foresee at this stage anyway.


Jim

I was thinking the other way around...
Can NBI compete with OE "on the way from exchange to their 1st house"?
It was mentioned earlier that it is likely NBI will only rent pole and not dark fiber and that would mean running fiber out to past existing OE areas.

Is there anything preventing NBI offering connections in the commercial areas?
That might be funny to see the rollout tricks from OE backfiring as NBI provides connections to all those houses outside the intervention area that OE
seem to be strategically ignoring.

The high horse brigade

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Regardless of your take on the NBP, comparing capital and current budget items is dumb. Current spending is vastly higher than capital.

Yeah just like comparing annual capital spending to spending spread over 25 years is also stupid

ArrBee

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

You can be assured: should the NBP be awarded to NBI, we will be negotiating when them to offer services using the NBPco. We have the infrastructure and structures for the service offerings in place anyhow already, so it would be foolish not to do it.

Would that be everywhere? Or do you limit your service offering to certain locations?

tsue921i8wljb3

ArrBee wrote: »

I was thinking the other way around...
Can NBI compete with OE "on the way from exchange to their 1st house"?
It was mentioned earlier that it is likely NBI will only rent pole and not dark fiber and that would mean running fiber out to past existing OE areas.

Is there anything preventing NBI offering connections in the commercial areas?
That might be funny to see the rollout tricks from OE backfiring as NBI provides connections to all those houses outside the intervention area that OE
seem to be strategically ignoring.

NBI cannot compete in areas where open eir / SIRO / Virgin are providing FTTH (>30 Mb) services.

Mortelaro

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

That's a very good point that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone. ESB infrastructure criss-crosses land in comparison to open eir's which is mainly roadside. Even for faults would the ESB have to request access Mortelaro?

Usually for power cuts they land in the yard,but they won't be able to get across wet land at construction stage and it's not easy for repairs

The Cush

Some figures

Wholesale premises connection fee - €100 + VAT
Wholesale regulated line-rental price per premises - €30 pm

oscarBravo

The Cush wrote: »

Wholesale regulated price per premises - €30 pm

Ex VAT? That's steep.

tsue921i8wljb3

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ex VAT? That's steep.

He didn't say if it included VAT. Are open eir €23.50 + VAT for 150Mb?

The Cush

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ex VAT? That's steep.

Not sure, haven't seen the official figure

Mortelaro

James lawless (FF) there mentioned imagine as a 5G solution:D
Planning needs to be sorted so they can get the masts up

Ten Pin

OpenEir wholesale prices...
150Mbps 23.50
300Mbps 28.50
1Gps 38.50

The Cush

Minister says contract will be published once finalised.

BarryD2

The Cush wrote: »

Some figures

Wholesale premises connection fee - €100 + VAT
Wholesale regulated line-rental price per premises - €30 pm

OK, but what will the retail costs inc VAT likely be?

On the face of it, there's little relative risk for these venture capitalists in this contract. Putting up a small fraction of the cost of the infrastructure and can then recoup the rest of the running costs from connection & line rental fees, at what prices?

Headshot

There's some gob****es constantly talking about 5G or wireless broadband as an alternative

The Cush

BarryD2 wrote: »

OK, but what will the retail costs inc VAT likely be?

That would be a retail matter.

This from the Dept last week.

The likely monthly cost to people for high speed broadband will be the same as offered commercially in other areas, approximately €40/€50 per month depending on the package you require.

kazoo106

By the time IP is inserted - retail will probably have to be €60+ per month

The Cush

New procurement process would take another 37 months.

cregmon

Headshot wrote: »

There's some gob****es constantly talking about 5G or wireless broadband as an alternative

Agree. How to shut them out till they're taught sense!

Which 5G solution? There are several. People have to be pinned down to specifics. Its a bit like ordering pizza but not understanding that you have to specify size, quantity, sauces, cheeses, toppings....

5G, potentially, covers everything from satellite based access, extreme mobile broadband for HDR 4k live video streams, ultra-low latency networks for industrial automation and of course the ubiquitous fixed wireless access.

Even in FWA solution space there are various flavours typically predicated on the spectrum bands being used but also on the backhaul types and throughput (there's big differences between wireless and fibre based backhaul capabilities).

If it came down to offering FWA to the most difficult to reach subscribers then we need to look at their use case requirements and forecasted growth. A bachelor farmer has different needs compared to a family of 12. Would a 25Mbps FWA link meet both their requirements? If the family want a guaranteed 150Mbps link then you'll still need to run fibre to within 200-1,000m of their home since the wireless link may likely have to use millimeter wave spectrum (~ 26-28GHz). Using a mid-band solution to expand coverage (i.e. distance) automatically limits the throughput available per subscriber. If the network installer is saying that FWA is the most cost effective coz the subscriber is so remote, then I can't see how high capacity P2P wireless is going to be cheaper than fibre all the way.

A big issue I see now is the lack of adequate knowledge amongst lots of people promulgating ideas around last-mile access solutions

The Cush

Eamon O Cuiv on the Dept of Public Expenditure "Rural Ireland can wait" .

Overall good comments from a FF TD.

Mortelaro

Why is Vat being included?
That's money the government get back
Also,how many jobs are created or sustained in the roll out period,their spend in the community and the tax that they pay
None of this in the narrative or hoo ha about the NBP
And then of course it's a figure paid out over decades
Shur if we all talked about the total of our salaries over a couple of decades,a lot of us could be spoof millionaires

The whole hoo ha is frankly ignorant

The high horse brigade

The Cush wrote: »

Eamon O Cuiv on the Dept of Public Expenditure "Rural Ireland can wait" .

Good comments from a FF TD.

I'll remember that the next time they knock on my door. They really are digging a home for themselves in rural Ireland

The high horse brigade

Mortelaro wrote: »

Why is Vat being included?
That's money the government get back
Also,how many jobs are created or sustained in the roll out period,their spend in the community and the tax that they pay
None of this in the narrative or hoo ha about the NBP
And then of course it's a figure paid out over decades
Shur if we all talked about the total of our salaries over a couple of decades,a lot of us could be spoof millionaires

The whole hoo ha is frankly ignorant

I guess Vat is included because of it was excluded the opposition would jump on it as a fudge of the actual figures

The Cush

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I'll remember that the next time they knock on my door. They really are digging a home for themselves in rural Ireland

He was actually being critical of the Dept's position in his comments, that their position was "rural Ireland can wait".

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

Eamon O Cuiv on the Dept of Public Expenditure "Rural Ireland can wait" .

Overall good comments from a FF TD.

Indeed, he did come across as quite supportive of the plan and didn't go with the usual SF/FF populist mantra of harping on that the ESB should just do it.

He asked and Minister Bruton clarified; The contract would indeed have to be retendered and the ESB would have to win the bid. The only alternative around it would be setting up a state entity from scratch and tasking them to build the network with it's own obvious inherent complications and delays which would also require leasing infrastructure from OpenEir if a least cost model was to be undertaken.

I have to say he did show a much greater understanding of the issue compared to many of his colleagues.



Jim

Headshot

The Cush wrote: »

He was actually being critical of the Dept's position in his comments, that their position was that rural Ireland can wait.

Just listening to him now

I kinda jumped the gun thinking he'll do a FF on it and just argue against the NBP and give no better alternative but fair play to him he was fully supported of it and knows how vital this is to Rural Ireland

Headshot

Just finished watching it there, Richard Bruton put in a very good performance

The Cush

Headshot wrote: »

Just finished watching it there, Richard Bruton put in a very good performance

For such a relatively short period in office he's well on top of his brief alright, especially such a contentious one as the NBP.

Johnboy1951

cregmon wrote: »

...

If it came down to offering FWA to the most difficult to reach subscribers then we need to look at their use case requirements and forecasted growth. A bachelor farmer has different needs compared to a family of 12. Would a 25Mbps FWA link meet both their requirements? If the family want a guaranteed 150Mbps link then you'll still need to run fibre to within 200-1,000m of their home ....

Do you imagine the homes these "bachelor farmer" types, (or others who might not presently use the internet), are living in will disappear when they die?
What happens if they sell to a family of 12?
What allowance would you make for future residents?
Do a useless job now and try to improve it when the new residents scream bloody murder?

This is a VERY long term infrastructure ..... and people move about and sell and buy homes as suits them.
Omitting any premises from the roll out should not ever be considered, nor should any consideration be given to a two-tier roll out in rural areas, where some would have FTTH and others have some other lesser technical solution.

If customers sign up to connections at a much faster rate than expected then it is likely that the state funding will be even less than €2 bn which over 25 years is minuscule.

The only real alternative I can think of would be for Openeir to take on the roll out using their own infrastructure and maybe renting from ESB where necessary.
In that way it would be one complete system covering the whole country.

Of course, in 9 years time there is nothing preventing Openeir from buying lots of shares in NBI and eventually taking over the whole lot anyway.

...... interesting times ahead .....

ussjtrunks

Do we suspect there will be any kind of timeline available day 1 for connection areas or will it be random?

Bigmac1euro

Would I be correct in saying Sweden are doing similar except at a fraction of the cost

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/news/high-speed-broadband-more-400000-homes-sweden-2017-oct-03_en

The Cush

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying Sweden are doing similar except at a fraction of the cost

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/news/high-speed-broadband-more-400000-homes-sweden-2017-oct-03_en

Two questions - what is the overall cost of their plan and what technology are they using?

That piece from late 2017 says the EIB was giving them €125m over 4 years. The EIB is doing similar here, a €500m deal was agreed with the government back in April 2018 - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/press-releases/Pages/European-Investment-Bank-announcement-of-funding-for-National-Broadband-Plan-is-welcomed-by-the-Minister-for-Communications.aspx

westyIrl

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying Sweden are doing similar except at a fraction of the cost

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/news/high-speed-broadband-more-400000-homes-sweden-2017-oct-03_en

The European Investment Bank (EIB) is supporting the expansion of the Swedish fibre network in cities and rural areas with €125 million in debt financing over the next four years.

They are supporting the expansion for an existing network to the tune of €125 million. The release does not state the overall cost of the expansion. Either way, I seriously doubt it is anywhere near a like for like comparison. EIB are supporting the NBP to the tune of €500m if I recall correctly.

Jim

westyIrl

The Cush wrote: »

Two questions - what is the overall cost of their plan and what technology are they using?

That piece from late 2017 says the EIB was giving them €125m over 4 years. The EIB is doing similar here, a €500m deal was agreed with the government back in April 2018 - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/news-and-media/press-releases/Pages/European-Investment-Bank-announcement-of-funding-for-National-Broadband-Plan-is-welcomed-by-the-Minister-for-Communications.aspx

Snap

The Cush

westyIrl wrote: »

Snap

Well you know what they say "great minds and ..." etc.

glucifer

7 years has changed this into a political issue. When things get political all logic goes out the window.

LEO is really interesting but unproven and unavailable, so when looking at options satellite was tooway and crap.

Having a network that would be the envy of every other country is something I would really look forward to seeing.

7 years, 1 final bidder... it was never gonna be a good deal, but the whole point is that no provider was going to connect these places because it didnt make financial sense.

Fibre is the only "future proofed" solution that is available currently. There is no valid argument against that.

I hear people complaining about the bandwidth being available but the need for bandwidth has only gone up over the years so is that going to change? It's not really about bandwidth anyway is it? Is about doing it right first time (whatever the opinion on the cost)

Bigmac1euro

Here's the full document for their plan, I notice they speak a lot about cost efficiency and cost savings. It seems they are rolling out 5g as well as high speed broadband to many houses. It also seems by 2025 they will have completed it.
Why do we have such a terrible way of doing things in this country. It's embarrassing that we are handing over our infrastructure to a private company because they fronted 15% of the cost at the beginning (probably less than 15% by the time its finished).

forgot to include this - https://www.government.se/496173/contentassets/afe9f1cfeaac4e39abcdd3b82d9bee5d/sweden-completely-connected-by-2025-eng.pdf

The Cush

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

Here's the full document for their plan, I notice they speak a lot about cost efficiency and cost savings.

Do they say what it is costing them to roll it out?

Bigmac1euro

The Cush wrote: »

Do they say what it is costing them to roll it out?

Trying to find this information, you see i think they have it broken down into different segments, some private and some government.

ArrBee

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

NBI cannot compete in areas where open eir / SIRO / Virgin are providing FTTH (>30 Mb) services.

that's a shame.
Maybe if they could, there'd be more than 1 tender.

Cryptopagan

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Yeah just like comparing annual capital spending to spending spread over 25 years is also stupid

Most of it will be spent in the first 10 years.The DoF highlighted areas of funding that could be adversely affected by the NBP, including social housing, schools and health services. This is in a country where bodies were left to rot on trolleys because a hospital didn't have a proper mortuary. But sure, billions is nothing really if you spread it out over a few years, we won't even notice we spent it.

westyIrl

ArrBee wrote: »

that's a shame.
Maybe if they could, there'd be more than 1 tender.

The State couldn't (for good reason) subsidise a company that would also be competing in non-intervention areas. It would be completely anti-competitive.

This was one of Eir's stated reasons for withdrawing from the bidding process. The State would have required them to set up a completely new outfit just to deal with the intervention area alone. They probably would also have required the same of SIRO, but I'm not certain of that.

Jim

The Cush

Sean Bolger's lapdog Ivan Yates advocating wireless again on the Tonight Show.

celticbhoy27

The Cush wrote: »

Sean Bolger's lapdog Ivan Yates advocating wireless again on the Tonight Show.

Can't educate people who don't want to be educated I guess. Simple Google search will tell you why fiber trumps wireless. Have they no researchers on these shows??

The Cush

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Have they no researchers on these shows??

Don't need them, Sean Bolger keeps him updated.

The Cush

Richard Bruton's opening statement to the committee

The wholesale prices NBI can charge are fully regulated by the NBP Contract and will be comparable to those charged in urban areas including those regulated by ComReg.

Based on the its assumed take up level of 80% over the 25 years with wholesale prices of around €25-€30 per month per premise,

The Cush

Micheál Martin getting annoyed in the Dáil today about glossy broadband brochures

Micheál Martin: ... Who paid for the glossy broadband brochures issued last week? How much did they cost? I was amazed those brochures were put together in the absence of any contract being signed. Today, the Taoiseach said it would be September or October before a contract on broadband would be signed yet glossy brochures have been sent to every Deputy and probably to every public representative by the Government telling us how much will be done this year and next year, notwithstanding the fact nothing was done for seven years with regard to this contract. How do brochures get financed and published by the Government in advance of contracts being signed? It reduces the Government's leverage when negotiating contracts. The €5 million spend on this is extraordinary. We are being treated to launch after launch and, unfortunately, very little delivery on a lot of issues.

Micheál Martin: What about broadband brochures?

Micheál Martin: How did the broadband brochures happen?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy would have to ask the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It does not fall under my remit any more.

Micheál Martin: How did they happen?

The Taoiseach: I do not know. The Deputy would have to ask the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Deputy Micheál Martin: Before a contract has been signed how does such documentation get produced?

The Taoiseach: I do not think it is about a contract.

An Ceann Comhairle: We need to move on to Question No. 13.

The Cush

The Joint Committee on Communications is to meet in private session on Thursday morning to discuss an investigation into the €5bn national broadband plan

Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 12:00 AM

Cross-party support for an Oireachtas committee investigation into the €5bn national broadband plan is likely to be agreed as the Government urges opposition parties to back the plan.
...
The committee has agreed to a request by Fianna Fáil to consider a detailed investigation into the plan. A special meeting of its TDs and senators tomorrow will decide this.

If agreed, the probe will examine the €220m equity of the Granahan McCourt consortium bid for the €3bn contract, as well as the role played by Frank McCourt, a brother of one of the investors in the project.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/5bn-national-broadband-plan-faces-oireachtas-inquiry-924246.html